Topic: Monoliths still as viable?

[M071]

I know very little of the old strategy, but I will say this:

Monoliths, though slightly less durable than before, are far cheaper points wise. However, they are now subject to the same hazards of deepstrikes as most other units, when the 3rd ed rules allowed them much more flexibility in that category. Also, the new gateway weapon is also viable for heavy troops, when gauss and particle-whip aren't enough.

My strategy? Tell me, what can possibly be better than a Monolith?

Give up?

Two!

Set one in reserve, the other on the table at game start. The first one draws enough firepower to leave much of your army unscathed. And that only increases once you manage to DS your second one in. Having Troops, Elites, Scarabs, etc in reserve to deploy via either is also fairly decent.

Granted, this is not what you call a cheap strategy. This is the Best Defense is Good Offense. Make sure they know you have not one, but two arm14, dakka firing bullet magnets on the field.

And you're not afraid to use them.

[enlg]

I think using 2 monoliths might create problems though, as its harder to bubble-wrap/defend two expensive monoliths from the enemy's melta weaponry.

Though I think that in all cases, I think that having maybe 2 units of wraiths and 2 command barge lords could help keep a deep struck monolith safe, as all those units will either punish enemies who try and melt the monolith, or absorb instant death/melta shots that would normally be used on the monolith.



Though we'll have to wait about a week so that we can see what 6th edition does to this vehicle, as who knows, maybe deep striking will be more accurate.

[Shas'Oink]

True, we don't know what will happen... maybe deep striking vehicles will push units out of the way, rather than mishap etc...

Other than that though, remember that monoliths are no more susceptible to enemy meltaguns than any of the other necron vehicles. Okay, the liths are slower so they can't get away as easy, but they also have massive destructive potential and the ability to pull any unit to its aid!

Remember that because the portal works in the movement phase it seems entirely possible that you can deep strike a monolith and then in the movement phase pull any unit (from on the board OR IN RESERVE) to come and protect it... hopefully killing any of those meltaguns or at the very least providing the "bubble wrap" necessary.

[Kaiju Senso]

Remember, the Dimensional Corridor is used at the beginning of the movement phase, just as deepstrike is at the beginning of the player turn. I'm not personally sure if the argument whether you could deepstrike, then choose to teleport a unit through the portal, came to a conclusion yet. Also note the Monolith is a "heavy" type vehicle. For all we know, future rules could be added for something with the "heavy" type (and boy do I hope so).

I've played about 5 games now with my Twin Tower list. So far it has done decent enough against Guard, Chaos marines, and razorspam blood angels, but I just got completely obliterated by Chaos Demons (luck of the dice perhaps). There seem to be a lot of haters on the Monolith these days where I play so I try to bring them to the table as often as possible. Now that 6th edition is so close, its just for fun. In a few weeks we'll probably have a whole new situation to deal with.

[rhop]

Now that 6th Edition has come.

What does everyone think about the monolith in the 6th Edition?

I retooled my list away from them toward the end of 5th and have not run one as of yet.

It doesn't get nerfed by the ordinance rule anymore.  It can now fire all its weapons each turn, which is great.

It does have 4 hps and in other posts people have pointed out that Spyders can repair hps with Fabricator claws.

Since you need to pen it to slow it down even more that helps that glances only damage it instead.

The Gauss rule has gotten better.

Still it has not been clarified whether you can deepstrike then pull units through portal.  The rulebook mentions "In the movement phase in which it arrives" as our only clue and no FAQ out for RB yet if it will be clarified at all.

By that wording I would say you cannot put a unit through the portal the turn it comes in.

I do think its an improvement, but until there is more AA I am going stick with the doom scythe which is cheaper and has a stronger gun.

Plus, against necrons, it would be hurting against voltaic staffs like other vehicles.

I hopefully will eventually get around to trying it again.  Since lists are moving away from vehicles, an infantry army supported by monoliths may be an increasing viable option especially with ghost arks to repair squads.

Until then my non-monolith list is doing fine and if it ain't broken don't fix it.

[Shas'Oink]

I'm still of the opinion that you CAN deep strike a monolith and then pull a unit through the portal (out of reserve) though in my list I'm generally thinking that the monolith will be on the board right from the start anyway.

I think that at the end of 5th, people were saying they wouldn't take the lith because it was simply not survivable enough. Well, I think it's pretty clear that 6th edition has made the monolith much tougher.

The only real trouble is that there are lots of options for the necrons so its certainly not an automatic pick. It might fit in your army, it might not!

[rhop]

I saw someone play a twin towers strategy against BAs last night.  And the monoliths are definitely more survivable 1 got glanced to death, but it took 3 turns to do so .

He seemed to do ok with it, but as you say for most of us that stopped using them there are so many other choices.  Its not like its the only vehicle anymore haha.  Plus there are a lot of units that seem to dish out the damage better then the monolith does, but once its a lot of infantry armies mainly then monolith may be the better choice.

On the deep striking portal thing.  There are treated as simultaneous and if that's the case then the player gets to choice which is first.

So you can deepstrike then unload

[Idaho]

On the deep striking portal thing.  There are treated as simultaneous and if that's the case then the player gets to choice which is first.

So you can deepstrike then unload

Yep, page 9 of the rule book confirms this for those who might want a little evidence.

[NecronCell2131]

 Nice to know, but i will be fielding flyers now anyway.

[Shas'Oink]

Well, my army is totting flyers AND a monolith!

The monolith in particular is a useful addition if a doomscythe just so happens to get shot down with a unit still inside as it can then pull them out of reserve automatically.

[Talvarion]

I run a monolith in about 50% of the battles I play, it's a great looking model on the battlefield and as long as you can deal with with the occational melta equiped unit (usually max one per army is the norm where I play) it's very tough now with its 4 hp. A good thing it brings ontop of being sturdy is the option to hide things behind it, somewhat limiting what your opponent can target. Also had some hilarious results with the eternity gate when in reverse mode...

[Hawaiian Zombie]

On the deep striking portal thing.  There are treated as simultaneous and if that's the case then the player gets to choice which is first.

So you can deepstrike then unload

Yep, page 9 of the rule book confirms this for those who might want a little evidence.

I'm not so sure about this as evidence the exceptions part on page 9 specifically says when "BOTH players" perform a simultaneous action the player whose turn it is decides the order.

[Idaho]

Sorry I forgot to reply to this!

No, sorry, you aren't remembering all the rules on page 9. It says and I quote;

"While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occassionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time..."

So really there is absolutely nothing in there about both players having to do something.

[Shas'Oink]

I agree that the quote is simpluy providing examples of situations which "may" occur during a battle. The important thing is simply how to resolve when this occurs. The monolith deep striking and pulling through further reserves would be one such example of something that is worked out when occuring (as we are not specifically told a strict order).

[Hawaiian Zombie]

Wow my brain was really not upto reading competently when I read that the first time! You guys are right there it's just an example.

After a trawl through the rulebook I did however find the second paragraph on page 125 which tells us when we arrive from reserve we can't use any abilities that must be used at the start of the turn. The monolith portal isn't however at the "start of the turn" but the "start of the movement phase", is the start of the movement phase the same as the start of the turn? I certainly think so and the turn summary on page 9 seems to agree, though I suppose you could try to argue that reserves is an "exception"

[Shas'Oink]

I'm not so certain that "start of turn" and "start of movement phase" are one and the same. They are certainly different enough to arguably actually be different.

But then I would say that because I believe that it is possible to use the portal after deep striking... my train of thought:

pg124 tells us that reserves are rolled for "at the start of the turn". All of the actions described in "arriving from reserves" must be completed presumably within this stage known as "start of turn". We are told in those rules that the unit arriving cannot move further in the movement phase. Which again supports that there is a stage before the movement phase (the start of turn). Unfortunately, unlike in Fantasy, we are never actually given such a concise break down of turn steps.

the monolith rules do clearly state "start of the movement phase", and this would essentialy mean to me that this happens before moving any other eligible units within the movement phase (models that arrived using the reserve rule moved as per those rules and are not eligible to move again).


Of course, as we are seeing elsewhere with "removed from play" and "removed as a casualty" are we simply reading too much into the different wording? I would suggest that the fact that the reserve rules mention the two different stages would be enough to support the idea that the two steps are different...

[Hawaiian Zombie]

I certainly think it isn't clear cut (and it is crappy wording and needs to be FAQ'd) and it doesn't just effect us, blessings are also cast at the start of the movement phase so this affects them too.

Even if it turns out to be out of sequence I don't think you can claim the "start of the turn" is a phase of the turn. The only rules we have for "the turn" are on page 9 and there is no "start of turn phase" presented there. As I said it's possible it counts as an exception. 

The phrase "units cannot move further in the movement phase" easily makes sense in either context (of reserves being in the movement phase or not) so I don't think it necessarily implies anything. In addition the fifth paragraph of arriving from reserves says that after all your reserves have arrived "the player can then proceed to move his other units as normal" it doesn't tell you to BEGIN your movement phase just lets you go straight on to moving everything else to me this implies your already in the movement phase.   

[Dev Null]

I know that trying to work out how one rule works based on how another works can get you into all kinds of trouble in GW games, but for what its worth:

Another thing that happens at the start of the movement phase is Psyker powers.  The rules for Psykers specifically state (rulebook p67) that on the turn he arrives from reserve, he can't use any start-of-movement phase powers.

Like I say; tenuous argument for intent at best - certainly doesn't apply as written.  Be nice if they just gave us a clear timeline with either Reserves Arrive - Start of Phase Abilities, or the opposite.

[Hawaiian Zombie]

I know that trying to work out how one rule works based on how another works can get you into all kinds of trouble in GW games, but for what its worth:

Another thing that happens at the start of the movement phase is Psyker powers.  The rules for Psykers specifically state (rulebook p67) that on the turn he arrives from reserve, he can't use any start-of-movement phase powers.

Like I say; tenuous argument for intent at best - certainly doesn't apply as written.  Be nice if they just gave us a clear timeline with either Reserves Arrive - Start of Phase Abilities, or the opposite.

Actually this totally turns around the RAI for me (sort of).

As page 125 already tells us we can't use start of turn abilities when we come in from reserves the section you mention on page 67 would be totally superfluous if the start of the turn and start of the movement phase were the same thing.

Of course that assumes the rules are well written and don't have superfluous repititions throughout and this is GW.....

[NecronCell2131]

 It all depends for me, if most people are fielding just 1 melta unit now and mostly plasma then for sure ill bring 1 to the table. The large template is really nice to hit marines with, especially with the 5+ cover now instead of 4+.