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Author Topic: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list  (Read 18350 times)

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Offline Bannedface666

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #40 on: February 7, 2006, 11:33:57 AM »
I have never used marines in my life, so I know nothing of them. What I do know is that army lists are balanced against the Spcae Marine codex.

Hence.... You are right about the Termite upgrade and the Open Top. That seems very fair to me now.

I just got a TON of squats through bartertown, and I am RELIEVED that you included bolters in your army. Wow, I was worried!

I am sorry, but I am in college right now and I cant view PDF. I am looking at your older HTML. I will refreain from flooding this thread with crap I am assuming from your older codex version.

I LOVE the idea that you have set up the troop choices in a way where you balance the ammount of troops versus everything else. Your list seems perfect for army comp. scores since I would probably get 6 troops choices and enjoy that choice! MOSt army lists take 'extra' troop choices to fill comp scores, but not this list. I actually WANT 120 squats running aorund, something that the IG codex fails and the ORK codex perfected.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #41 on: February 7, 2006, 11:49:54 AM »
Quote
Hence.... You are right about the Termite upgrade and the Open Top. That seems very fair to me now.
  Thatwould make it the first deepstrikers that can assault upon arriving though. That would unbalance the unit something fierce...

And yes, I guessed you were reading the older version. You have been missing a bit of development since then. The HTML is 0.2-4 or something, the pdf is 0.25. :)

I think you can max out at HQ + 3x10 Hearthguards + 6x10 Brotherhood troopers + 3x10 bikes + 3x3 Weaponteams. That's a LOT of squats. I am finishing my Brotherhood soon (two squads and some artillery left) and then I am moving on to the Guild.

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Offline Bannedface666

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #42 on: February 7, 2006, 08:42:48 PM »
Any plans with the Adeptus Squat Mechanic and Squat Servitor?

I know your list says to refer to the amrine codex, but do you mean to actually use a marine model? Also you said no servitor with the 'marine' techpriest.

Does this have anything to do with the Squat Mechanic and Servitor?

Top right or the page
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2054squatscmd-h.htm

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #43 on: February 8, 2006, 05:31:10 AM »
1. Adeptus Mechanicus - will edit that in. Same with the Servitor.
2. No, I have a load of Squat models (painting right now).
3. No, the Techmarine is there to study, so he is not bringing the servitors along (it could overpower the army, and unbalance it quite nicely if he could)

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #44 on: February 8, 2006, 10:17:24 AM »
1) So the Squat Mechanic w/ Servitor  and the Marine Techmarine without Servitor will be two different options in the codex?

2) Also, the Mole Mortar, does this need line of sight, or does it work like the imperial mortar where there is no line of sight and it may scatter? The way it is written in the codex, the Mole Mortar needs line of sight.

3) I can take a Ornate Breastplate and a Powerfield on the same model?

4) The BS 4 for the Heavy Weapons Support Team under the Heavy Support section, don't you think this is a bit too powerful?

I hope I am not bombarding you with crap left and right, cuz as I build my army, much like you are, I am just seeing little nick and nacks here and there that need some love.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2006, 10:24:07 AM by Intellectawe »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #45 on: February 8, 2006, 11:19:24 AM »
1. Yes, very much so.
2. In what way does it imply LOS?
3. Yeah, sure, if you want to. You would then have invested nearly twice as many points as the DE would for a similar (better in fact) effect.
4. Not especially, consindering the only weapons that use BS for them cost a lot of points, so it evens out. And they are a Weaponteam, Supportteams are in Troops. :)

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #46 on: February 8, 2006, 12:38:50 PM »
The Mole Mortar just has a normal range, like any other gun, and it doesn't have the Indirect Fire rule that it requires to have so player know you can fire it without line of sight.

I know the name Mole Mortar implies it doesn't need line of sight, but there is no special rule in the BBB that implies all weapons named Mortar get the indirect fire rule.

Like the Basilisk. It has a special rule so players know you dont need line of sight.

I dont use Indirect Fire weapons in my armies, so maybe I am missing something about Mortars in general?

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #47 on: February 8, 2006, 12:53:27 PM »
Indeed you are. The Mole Mortar is a "Barrage"-weapon. Barrage-weapons can use LOS or not, as the situation arises. There is no need to specify that it does not need LOS, "Barrage" already does so.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #48 on: February 9, 2006, 11:56:02 AM »
I haven't got all my modles yet, so I haven't been able to play test the Squat rules like you have. But as I am making my army lists, I see a problem.

Only 10 Squats per squad? I don't understand why they can't have a number range from 6 - 12, or 6 - 16.

From what I can tell from the Squat list, without playtesting it of course, I am supposed to move half my army foward while the other half lays cover fire. But, a 10 Squat squad with ONLY leadership 7 and armor of 5+???

Don't teh Squats get decimated? I mean, they take three casualties, and they are already gonna have to roll their mega 7 leadership.

I thought marines had a small squad number and other armies typically have up to 20 models in a squad due to their leadership and survivability.

I know you have been play testing them over the past X months, so tell me, how do Squats fair?

Could you post one of your army lists and maybe tactics you use for a cleanse mission or a standar kill em all for 6 turns mission?

I am having a hard time making an army list because I cant "feel" what each unit is supposed to do.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #49 on: February 9, 2006, 12:47:58 PM »
Quote
I haven't got all my modles yet, so I haven't been able to play test the Squat rules like you have. But as
Only 10 Squats per squad? I don't understand why they can't have a number range from 6 - 12, or 6 - 16.
   As heavy/special weapons are dependant on squad, not squad-size, you are better off (for maximum effect) to take more smaller squads than fewer big ones. Back in RT you got 8 squats per brotherhood squad. No more, no less. I figured a bit more flexibility was in order, and 5-10 seems to work well.

Quote
From what I can tell from the Squat list, without playtesting it of course, I am supposed to move half my army foward while the other half lays cover fire. But, a 10 Squat squad with ONLY leadership 7 and armor of 5+???
   Why move half the army forward?

Quote
I thought marines had a small squad number and other armies typically have up to 20 models in a squad due to their leadership and survivability.
   With T4 they actually last a great deal longer than I initially though, and with the proper cover you always get a save, and in a squad of ten and no assaults you get four turns of uninterrupted shooting without trouble, at least when I have played.

Quote
I know you have been play testing them over the past X months, so tell me, how do Squats fair?
   I have done ok. I have lost some, drawn some and won some. I have yet only played smaller engagements to test out units, and I am still building my army, but if I have a good first turn (as opposed to how I did the last battle, when I killed 3 gretchin with 9 heavy bolters... it was just sad) the Squats can do really well. I expect to keep balancing the codex up through version as I explore more units, points and tactics.

Quote
Could you post one of your army lists and maybe tactics you use for a cleanse mission or a standar kill em all for 6 turns mission?
  I have played Combat patrols, and the last army was
10 Combat Brotherhood - 2 hb, 1 plasma, vet with fist
6 Assault Brotherhood - 3 flamers, 2 bolters, vet with fist
10 Support Brotherhood - 9 heavy bolters, vet with first
Thudd gun

It went ok, but, as I said, I had a terrible first turn. Next time I will reap those orks...
I just held back, screened the combat with the assault, and support with the combat, both in cover, and the artillery hidden in some woods. It worked ok, except for one trukk getting by me, and 10 trukk boys rolling over my lines. Ouch.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #50 on: February 9, 2006, 01:31:06 PM »
Thanks :)

I know you are making the list more of ahomage to RT than an actual 4th Edition codex, but I unfortunately am playing your list as a codex army for 4th ed.

About half the army moving foward and half staying back, what I meant was that my assaulting units moved foward while my heavy shooters stayed back, providing cover fire.

I have some more Q's for you...

1) When a termite deepstrikes, and appears "under" a unit, how is the enemy unit moved? Does the defending player move the unit anywhere he wants, or does the unit scatter a certain distance?

Maybe the enemy player rolls scatter 1d6. The number rolled is the distance the unit has tomove away from the termite. If the defending player rolls a HIT with scatter, he can choose to move the unit any direction he wishes.

2) I believe Exo-armor should give its wearer +1 str and/or at least +1 attack. I figured +1 st to offset the disadvantage of not being able to be armed with a Powerfist.

I know some squat models come with powerfists, but can a Exo-armor take a powerfist? I was thinking of making that huge knife they carry something like a powerweapon +1 strength.

3)Shouldn't Veterans have 8 leadership? I know every squad just about has Brothers in Arms, but even in a 2000 point army, there is no way my HQ's can cover the entire army with their 10 leadership. I am NOT asking for super leadership, but Squats to me seem more disciplined than IG. I figure they should have leadership 8 base and 9 for veteran.

4) Heavy weapon Trikes. Do they have the turbo boost option? And can they fire their weapon, like the necron destroyer, after moving 12"?

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #51 on: February 9, 2006, 01:52:06 PM »
Quote
I know you are making the list more of ahomage to RT than an actual 4th Edition codex, but I unfortunately am playing your list as a codex army for 4th ed.
   No, this is a 4th ed codex, I am just staying true ot the RT-list wherever I can. Allowances have been made, are are continually made, to make it as fair and balanced as possible.

Quote
About half the army moving foward and half staying back, what I meant was that my assaulting units moved foward while my heavy shooters stayed back, providing cover fire.
  I don't have footsloggers in my army that are supposed to walk down the field; I have rides for them. I felt that the littel guys needed them. if you want to march your squats down the field and into fire you will find that you will lose a LOT of beards before the battle is through, as it is just not a sound strategy for them, just as a gaunt-rich nid-army is not supposed to wait for the enemy to come to them. See?

Quote
1) When a termite deepstrikes, and appears "under" a unit, how is the enemy unit moved? Does the defending player move the unit anywhere he wants, or does the unit scatter a certain distance?
   It is just moved away, not any specific distance.

Quote
2) I believe Exo-armor should give its wearer +1 str and/or at least +1 attack. I figured +1 st to offset the disadvantage of not being able to be armed with a Powerfist.
   And how many extra points would that cost? The exo-armour Hearthguards are allready 30 points...

Quote
I know some squat models come with powerfists, but can a Exo-armor take a powerfist? I was thinking of making that huge knife they carry something like a powerweapon +1 strength.
   There are no exo-armour models with powerfist; they all have a very sharp axe (I have cut myself on them a lot of times) and a bolter-like weapon. I figured the model could tell how the rules shouyld be used, and if you want a powerfist get it on a Thanehand and give him the armour.

Quote
3)Shouldn't Veterans have 8 leadership? I know every squad just about has Brothers in Arms, but even in a 2000 point army, there is no way my HQ's can cover the entire army with their 10 leadership. I am NOT asking for super leadership, but Squats to me seem more disciplined than IG. I figure they should have leadership 8 base and 9 for veteran.
   Of course they could have 10 in every stat, but then they would cost too much. Raising Ld for the squats while keeping "Brothers in arms" could bump their cost up a bit, and it would not be a good thing. Veteran Advisors are Ld 8; you can get get one of those for a squad you feel is exposed.
   As for them being more disciplined than IG; no, I don't think so - they fight in another way, which is what "Brother in arms" does.

Quote
4) Heavy weapon Trikes. Do they have the turbo boost option? And can they fire their weapon, like the necron destroyer, after moving 12"?
   They are bikes, and treated as such, page 53 of the BGB.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #52 on: February 9, 2006, 02:10:50 PM »
1) I was trying to avoid having my squads all in Rhinos.

2) Heartgaurd have base 2 A and +1 for CC and Pistol, making your basic Hearthie 3 attacks. Would giving it Exo- Armor make it only 2 attacks for losing the CC and Pistol, or does the power weapon and Exo-Storm Bolter give it a +1 A, making an Exo'd Hearthie 3 attacks again?

Question...

1) Squat Advisers... They count as a single HQ choice? I am a little confused by them.

If I take a Living Ancestor and a Thanehand, would that mean I could NOT get a retinue of Advisers for either or both of them?

If I take a Living Ancestor and a Thanehand, could I take any number of Adviser Squads, and put them out among the Squat Squads?
« Last Edit: February 9, 2006, 02:17:33 PM by Intellectawe »

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #53 on: February 9, 2006, 02:17:24 PM »
1. Only my Assault-squads move forward; the others remain where they are, so only those squads need rhinos.
2. I see your point, but then we are up at Terminator-levels easily, and I doubt that +1A is going to be worth +10 points, do you?

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #54 on: February 9, 2006, 02:22:26 PM »
1. Only my Assault-squads move forward; the others remain where they are, so only those squads need rhinos.
2. I see your point, but then we are up at Terminator-levels easily, and I doubt that +1A is going to be worth +10 points, do you?

They way I see Squat Exo Armors is that they are supposed to be. um, not the right word but, weaker termies. I am fine with that, but not having a powerfist, costing 30 points for only 2 attacks and always going last anyway due to low initiative will make Exo armors more of a points sink than termies are. Heart guard by themselves are a better points investment without exo armor in my opinion than with exo armor. What does a heartguard get for 11+ points? a 2+ and 5++ save. Which sounds fine on paper, but in clsoe combat Exo Armored Hearths become Pariahs, a gigantic liability. Amazing stats and powers on paper for its cost, but on the board, MAYBE not good.

In my opinion, Exo Armors seem to be better suited for shooting and taking incoming fire than actually assaulting.

I also editied my previous post incase you may have missed it.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #55 on: February 9, 2006, 02:53:31 PM »
Quote
1) Squat Advisers... They count as a single HQ choice? I am a little confused by them.
   They are a Command squad. I will clarify the entry.

They way I see Squat Exo Armors is that they are supposed to be. um, not the right word but, weaker termies. I am fine with that, but not having a powerfist, costing 30 points for only 2 attacks and always going last anyway due to low initiative will make Exo armors more of a points sink than termies are. Heart guard by themselves are a better points investment without exo armor in my opinion than with exo armor. What does a heartguard get for 11+ points? a 2+ and 5++ save. Which sounds fine on paper, but in clsoe combat Exo Armored Hearths become Pariahs, a gigantic liability. Amazing stats and powers on paper for its cost, but on the board, MAYBE not good.
   I have not started playtesting them yet, so I will edit them as I manage to balance them out. The problem is dropping them in points will make them far too cheap for their durability, ad upping their stats iwth more attacks will need to boost their points, which I am not sure is a good idea. I will keep you posted.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #56 on: February 9, 2006, 06:00:13 PM »
I thinik I have read your Brothers In Arms rule wrong....

I read it as only being able to be used if the A) Squad falling back is near a model with leadership of 10.

I think you wrote it as meaning that the B)  falling back squad may regroup as if it HAS leadership 10 correct?

I just noticed the comma in teh sentence, but even with that the wording can be a tad misleading.


If the second one os correct, I think I just about had your whole army idea wrong from teh start! I was wondering how to keep my Thanehand near all my squads like a monolith so that all squads could have used his leadership value!

Now your list is starting to make a ton of sense! I was so worried on having my units break all the time!

ALSO...

For the Assault Squad.... Can individual models replace their lasguns for bolters? The wording between your Combat and Assault squads differ in this respect. Combat says "All" while Assault says "Any".

Does this mean I can have 5 special weapons, like flamers, and 5 boltguns, but I only paid for 5 boltgun upgrades?
« Last Edit: February 9, 2006, 06:14:13 PM by Intellectawe »

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2006, 03:04:07 AM »
1. I will clarify the Brothers in Arms a bit. Thanks for pointing it out.
2. Hmm.. I will look into that. It is always tricky with mixed weapons.
3. You can have five special weapons, but I am not sure about the cost. I will tighten the wording.

Thanks for your eyes on this, as I need the input.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2006, 09:41:47 AM »
The heathguard can have exo-armour and bikes. Does this mean they get a 1+ save? I mean exo-armour is 2+ save, and adding the bike bonus of +1 armour save, would they get a 1+ save? that's awfully powerful.

You can do the same thing with HQ's in Exo-armour and bikes too.

Does the thudd gun uses multiple barrage rules in the main rule book?

Do heavy weapon teams become separate units? I mean a heavy weapon team with 3 sets of heavy weapons would become 3 2men squads, taking alot of individual fire to bring down, and becomming 3 scoring units, which is hard to bring down.

The trait that allows you to re-roll armour saves is very powerful for only 1 pt. I mean you could have a squad in exo-armour re-roll 2+ saves, making them virtually immune to anything that can't penetrate 2+ saves.

The major flaws aren't that balanced, the trait that disables the use of the guildmaster and limites bikes and trikes seems trivial compared to limiting elite, heavy support, and fast attack choices.

Also, doesn't barrage weapons automatically causes a pinning test? I don't see why you stated causing pinning for many barrage weapons.

The heavy weapon team's weapons seems cheap in comparison. A heavy bolter mounted in tarantula makes the shots the same as firing 2 heavy bolters. (do the math, twinlinked increases efficiency by 1/3, and firing 1d2 shots increase it by 1/2 again, doubling the fire rate on average) This 2 heavy bolters only cost 20pts, where as it would cost 30pts in a devastator squad.

Can trikes really be in units of 1-3? this makes getting 3 27pt trikes an easy way to fill out the fast attack choices, and getting 3 scoring units to boot.

The ancestor seems pretty powerful for his point costs, he's got str 5, toughness 5, and 4 wounds, only str10 weapons can insta-kill him, and he can wield a str5 init 5 force weapon, better than a librarian, for less the cost, and aren't nearly as vulnerable to insta-kill.

He can also use all his psychic power twice? (I'm not sure of the wording here, but you seem to say the ancestor can use all his power twice, or as much as he wants to, you  need to clarify the wording)
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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2006, 11:55:07 AM »
The heathguard can have exo-armour and bikes. Does this mean they get a 1+ save? I mean exo-armour is 2+ save, and adding the bike bonus of +1 armour save, would they get a 1+ save? that's awfully powerful.
   Yes they do get a 1+ save. However, a 1+ save is no different from a 2+ save except for the AP. How is it overly powerul?

Quote
Does the thudd gun uses multiple barrage rules in the main rule book?
   Yes, was there an indication that it didn't?

Quote
Do heavy weapon teams become separate units? I mean a heavy weapon team with 3 sets of heavy weapons would become 3 2men squads, taking alot of individual fire to bring down, and becomming 3 scoring units, which is hard to bring down.
   You mean the artillery? Yes they are all separate units, as is all other artillery in the game thus-far. They only have one heavy weapon with AV 10, so the amount of firepower needed to take them down is really quite small.


Quote
The trait that allows you to re-roll armour saves is very powerful for only 1 pt. I mean you could have a squad in exo-armour re-roll 2+ saves, making them virtually immune to anything that can't penetrate 2+ saves.
   That's true. The traits need oto be reworked, and I am aware of that. This is certianly one. It should be only brotherhood units, I guess.

Quote
The major flaws aren't that balanced, the trait that disables the use of the guildmaster and limites bikes and trikes seems trivial compared to limiting elite, heavy support, and fast attack choices.
   Hmm, you're right. It was amigrated trait (from minor) and I didn't get to re-balance them yet. Thanks for pointing it out.

Quote
Also, doesn't barrage weapons automatically causes a pinning test? I don't see why you stated causing pinning for many barrage weapons.
   That's true. I will tighten that up. Thanks for spotting it.

Quote
The heavy weapon team's weapons seems cheap in comparison. A heavy bolter mounted in tarantula makes the shots the same as firing 2 heavy bolters. (do the math, twinlinked increases efficiency by 1/3, and firing 1d2 shots increase it by 1/2 again, doubling the fire rate on average) This 2 heavy bolters only cost 20pts, where as it would cost 30pts in a devastator squad.
   But a devastator has a 3+ save and is sourrnded by T4 3+ save ablative marines. The tarantula takes a single hit and is down. It is expensive compared to the firesupport brothhood-squad with heavy bolters, if you look at the internal balancing.

Quote
Can trikes really be in units of 1-3? this makes getting 3 27pt trikes an easy way to fill out the fast attack choices, and getting 3 scoring units to boot.
   What would you suggest? Vypers, Attack bikes and ork vehicles all come in variable sizes for squadrons, so why not these guys? Should they be 2-3 instead?

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The ancestor seems pretty powerful for his point costs, he's got str 5, toughness 5, and 4 wounds, only str10 weapons can insta-kill him, and he can wield a str5 init 5 force weapon, better than a librarian, for less the cost, and aren't nearly as vulnerable to insta-kill.
   The cost for him with a loadout of powers and gears is pretty high though, but you might well be correct. I will look him over again. The Marine Librarian also gets ATSKNF and comes with a force weapon and better armour to start with, which the Ancestor has to buy. He also HAS to buy a power, at a cost slightly higher, on average for effect, than the librarian. But I have corrected the pointcost a bit.

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He can also use all his psychic power twice? (I'm not sure of the wording here, but you seem to say the ancestor can use all his power twice, or as much as he wants to, you  need to clarify the wording)
   Will do.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2006, 12:08:04 PM by Rasmus »

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

 


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