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Offline kipper

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'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« on: May 4, 2008, 10:17:51 AM »
hey guys, i'm new to 'nids but i was offered pretty much an 1500 pt army for £50 with the new and old codex (i love reading fluff)

i whacked together a rough list (see below) with all the models i have and am now seeking your guidance!

i.e is this list actually any good? what should be changed, have i picked useless biomorphs. and what i should get next.

please note that the army list is ALL the models i have. so help with what they should be equipped with rather than "dont use them, use these" as i probably dont have "these".   i also have the red terror on standby being assembled.

HQ
Tyrant:- bonesword, venom cannon, toxin sacs, extended carapace, adrenal glands (+1I) and bio plasma.
190

TROOPS
(2x9) genestealers:- toxin sacs, scything talons.
414

8x hormagaunts :- extended carapace, toxin sacs
104

14x termagaunts : - flesh borers, without number
126

ELITES
Lector
80

3x warriors : - toxin sacs, deathspitters, scything talons, enhanced senses.
99

4x warriors :- scything talons, scything talons, leaping, toxin sacs, extended carapace.
144

HEAVY!

Zoanthrope :-  warpblast, synapse.
65

Biovore : - toxin spores
52

Carnifex :- mace tail, crushing claws, scything talons, spine banks, adrenal gland (ws), tusked, implant attack, extended carapace.
175


TOTAL 1449

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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #1 on: May 4, 2008, 11:04:25 AM »
Alrighty. I will tell you right now. Make that Tyrant into a flyrant. You'll need something that can keep up with the ganuts and keep them under synpnese. A walking tyrant can't do that.

Also most people feel flyrant are best equiped with duel sything talons or 2 twin linked devowers. Witch biomorphs and any psychic power goodies is up to you. But there are a few rules of thumb to them to.


Also the lictor. Most people will tell you that there not very good. There only perk is that they will scare most people out of table cornors and such. rember after we whips out a squad he's toast the next turn if any guns are pointed at him. You may be better off with more wairrors.

Warrioiers work best is a mixure of the fellowing 3 layouts all in one brood

1)Duel sything talons
2)Rending Claws and sything Talons
3)Lashwhips and other rending or sything talons.

-Sything talons give you alot of attacks vs. horde infitry
-Rending will give you alot of good attacks vs. Power Aurmor/space mariens
-Lashwhips will help you take away attacks from attacks from thows CC specialists and special charaters.

If they have alot of power aurmor put the squads wounds on sything.
If they have alot of hourd put the wounds on the rending.

ect. and so forth. More or less put them on the warrior that helps you the less.


Biovores are VERY specailized. And tricky to ues. Also one biovore on it's own will not do much. Zothapods only work good in there broods of 3, maby two.(rember! up to 3 biovores, or 3 zothapods make one heavy support slot)

I would sujest droping them and uesing the points for something eals.

Also your CC fex is over loaded with biomorphs. If you REALY want to ues CC fex's instead of one realy loaded out one. get two with just sything talons and ONE defensive biomorph. Maby one CC biomorph.

2 CC fexs work better becaues they can be uesed to cornor your enemy. Since most units walk as fast or faster then a fex. They will just out pace one CC fex on his own and it will never see combat. Also hidden power fists will pwn your fex's thow. So watch out.


A sniper fex may be a better idea if you can find the points. (Enhanced sences, Barbed strangler, and Venom cannon.)
« Last Edit: May 4, 2008, 11:13:24 AM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline ZethEphdel

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #2 on: May 4, 2008, 11:55:34 AM »
Tyrant: I personally don't have a flying tyrant and have never had a problem with synapse. Leaping warriors or a broodlord in my army are always there to keep everyone in control. I usually run a tyrant with toxin sacs and a venom cannon for some good anti-tank, so I think thats good. Then you could give him twin-linked devourers or scything talons or whatever else you want to give him.

Genestealers: They are way too overpowered! toxin sacs and scything talons will tear anything to pieces. You generally want to stay in combat until turn two. I would say to take off the toxin sacs. With rending claws as genestealers big strength, the toxin sacs won't be too much use.

Lictor: I love lictors!

Warriors: good. the only thing I would possibly change is to take out the toxin sacs on the ranged ones (unless you have some cunning plan with them)

Heavy: generally biovores and zoanthropes work better in larger numbers, although it depends on what you want to use them for. If you want to use the biovores as more disruption units, making the enemy take priority tests and moving out of the way of the mines, than one biovore has more chance of the mine scattering off of an enemy. But this also means that the mine will do less damage if it hits, or if the enemy decides to ignore the mine. Zoanthropes will work fine on they're own, but I generally run more

Carnifex: When I run my carnifex, I give him both adrenal glands, flesh hooks, mace tail, thornback, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, tusked, 2x scything talons. This comes out to 156 and then you can give him defensive upgrades if you want. But this means that he strikes before powerfists, the adrenal glands and toxic miasma will mean that he will hit marines on a 3, toxin sacs make him even more deadly against tanks, mace tail helps prevent him from being bogged down by swarms and thornback helps him be more independent as he doubles his model count.
Take this only as advice. If you see things here you like than by all means use them, but if you like your other stuff better than give it a try. You can always change it if it doesn't work. Tyranids are the most customizable army out there so have fun with it.

Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #3 on: May 4, 2008, 01:09:47 PM »
Sure if you have some cunning plan take what ever you want to take. But Zeth, I personly don't agree on your choice of loading out a CC fex.

You could take one 156 fex (witch once you start takeing defensive biomorphs becomes almost 200 if not more.) And all it will do is be hauling ass all day traying to catch up with something.

Or you could take two cheeper fex's. Say. 2x sything talons, renforced chitin. This comes out to 116 points. Your already a S 9, so is toxic sacks realy needed?  Thow I'd say go from the (I) gland so that's a 122 point fex. It doesn't hurt to put on toxic sacks, but at the same time there not needed.

Now get two of these. For 244 points you can get these two CC fex's. That's about the coast of a "god fex". Maby alittle more then your one CC fex.

BUT. instead of one fex, you oppent now has TWO fex's with 5 wounds to worry about, and these two fex's can work together to "herd" and "cornor" your enemy.

2 fex's will be a much greater threat then one slow fex witch can be ignored by any fast moveing, mobil, or mechanized army. Not to mention any of these armies has a good chance of gunning down this one CC fex for some Victory points if there smart enghot, and can keep there distance.

Also many consider the tail morphs not that good. And on paper I have to agree. When will your oppent be silly enghot to have more then 4 models in base to base contact with you?


And agien. In the orginal list he mention he was going to ues crushing claws. I for got to mention that many people have worked out some stuff for the crushing claws. On average they only give you a .5 better chance of hitting something. Not worth the points.
« Last Edit: May 4, 2008, 01:17:36 PM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline Pink Floyd

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #4 on: May 4, 2008, 02:05:50 PM »
Furthermore CC fexes are really only worth it in elite slots eg.2x scytals + adrenal gland for ws. Whereas HS fexes should be shooting with Barbed strangler + Venom cannon + enhanced sences. These should be all you need but add reinforced chitin if you think he'll go down too fast.

The tyrant can be kept walking but give him a barbed strangler or devourers so as to focus on 1 role as all tyranids should. The AGs and bio plasma can be dropped for enhanced senses to improve shooting.

On the gaunts the extended carapace should be dropped because most weapons are ap 5 or lower so will ignore your armour whether it is 5+ or 6+. Also on the gaunts WON is not that useful as the gaunts will come back on your table edge, too far away to do anything, although in some scenarios it can be useful, eg in cleanse

On the genestealers swap out the toxin sacs for EC and keep the scytals but make good use of cover.

On the warriors swapping out 1 pair of scytals on each one for rending claws would vastly improve their killing power.

After this you should have saved about 50 ish points with which I would suggest more gaunts but as you say you have no more perhaps give the shooty warriors EC and the CC warriors adrenal glands.

Unfortunately I can't seem to think of anything sensible to do with those leftover points except possibly deep striking pore mines.

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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #5 on: May 4, 2008, 02:16:56 PM »
Very true. A sniper fex is probly what he needs the most right now. (And hopefuly he hasn't assembled it yet. Since all the parts can be found right out of the box.)
« Last Edit: May 4, 2008, 02:18:58 PM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline coredump

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #6 on: May 4, 2008, 04:14:12 PM »

Tyrant:
If you can get wings, then a flyrant does rock. Either 2xST or 2x TLDev are both good.
Without wings, the VC is a fine choice. (As is 2xTLDev).
But I would skip the LW/BS and the CC upgrades. With the VC, it is a shooting unit, keep it that way. Get a Deathspitter, or TLDev to go with it. (my recs) Or go cheap and get ST. You can keep the LWBS if you really want (It is fairly cheap) But I rec the guns, and drop the BioP and +I  The BS has the same range, but a much lower Str, I don't recommend it. (And it is expensive.)
You do need ES (+BS), every shooting nid that can get ES, should have it.
Also, if you can get a model to 'count as', I would go with a HT guard instead of the EC

Stealers: Anything with Rending means Toxin Sacs are an inefficient use of points. Don't take them
As mentioned, the ST mean you do 'too much damage'. You could drop the number of stealers, but I would prefer dropping the STs.  EC is an option, but not one I prefer.

HGs: 8 will not do anything. I realize you don't have any more, so I would see if you can proxy the Tgants as HGs, or the HGs as tgants.
Once you have more HGs (absolute min would be 12, more like 14-20 depending on biomorphs) then the TS is a fine upgrade. As is +WS and/or +I. I don't like the +EC, just doesn't seem to do enough for the pionts.

TGants: 14 is enough, but just barely. try for 16+, even 20-24 is okay. Drop the WoN, just not worth it. Too easy to be never triggered. Too easy once triggered for them to not get back into range. Much better off with more tgants, or more of something anyway...

Lictors are a finesse model. They are not a brood of stealers. Especially with one, you need to be very careful of their target. Heavy weapon squads, transports, jet bikes, already damaged units...good.  10 man units, assault squads, powerfists, etc....bad They do things nothing else can, but they are not a god unit, so you need to be careful when employing them.

warriors: They tend to work best in broods of 5-6, 4 being a minimum really. Do not mix their weapons... it just means you will never have enough of what you want.
Take rending claws whenever you can. Even against IG, you are better with 3 rending attacks, instead of 4 non-rending. Lash whips are almost never worth it. They only affect the models in BtB, better off with more rending attacks. Especially if you have +I and get to go first.

Zoans do not need to be in a larger brood, they work exactly the same single as double/triple. Or rather, it is a direct linear situation. 2 work twice as well as 1; there is no synergy to worry about.
Almost the same with biovores. One is fine, just realize that is it only 52pts you are spending; don't expect it to take on the world. If you kill 3 marines all game, it is about even.

Carnifex:
Personally, I prefer a fast army, so a CC fex is not my style. However, there is a place for a CC fex; if that is what you want. Yours is pretty good; it is not an overpriced 'godfex'; in fact, I might boost it a bit by adding toxic miasma and RC, but get rid of implant attack; no characters are getting near you. +I is also helpful to go before pfists.
An elite CC fex plays a different role.
The idea of your CC fex is to be scary, and unpredictable. Your opponent has to deal with the uncertainty of those D6 attacks, and thus has to overcommit. "On paper" they get 3.5 attacks each turn, but your opponent can't count on that. 
The EC and RC means it is harder to kill. If it gets charged, or even after pile in, you get the tail attacks
Two CC fexes will not be able to herd, they are still too slow, and it means that the target will be able to hit one at a time anyway. Better to use the CC fex as the anvil, and some stealers as the hammer.  It is also great for taking objectives.
And 244 pts is a lot more than 175pts.


Last of all, if you can avoid it at all, dont' put on biomorphs to get to a higher piont total. You may be better off playing at 1000 or 1250 pts for a bit, until you get more models.

Good luck.
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Offline Marine In Training

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #7 on: May 4, 2008, 08:41:27 PM »
ok, rather than criticize the list, i'll suggest some tactics.

tyrant - the tyrant has no real strengths, he can kill at range, and he can kill up close.  i'd suggest giving him some kind of psychic power.  psychic scream works best when you get lots of them, but a tyrant and a zoanthrope with it isnt bad.  also, any cheap opponants who take missile launchers will be in a lot of trouble if you decide to take extended carapace, so its not a bad upgrade.  keep him close to the thrope, whether you go choir or not - any AP2 weapons in sight of these will have to decide between these two units, which increases both their surviveability. 

the fex nearby would also be a good idea.  you have a small chunk of your army which is invulnerable to most of your opponants attacks all nearby eachother.  send this part of your army right up the middle, saturate your opponats heavy weapons with targets, because they'll have a very hard time to decide what they're gonna shoot at. 

keep the hormagaunts nearby this, to use to tie up any heavy weapons.  the termagaunts nearby would also be a good idea, because they can act as a meat shield.  once they die, bring them back wherever they're needed most, whether at a flank, or right up the middle again.

8 hormagaunts, on an assault, can actually win against many opponants (if they hit full strength).  the thing is, they'll lose the next round.  figure out how to use this to full effect, and you'll be surprised how much damage and disruption an 80 pt unit can actually do.

make sure the lictor is deployed well, and make sure he disrupts your oppoant.  a lictor will rarely earn his points back from what he kills, but the guns he can silence during your opponants shooting phase can pay for himself tenfold (maybe a bit of an exageration, but still, the point gets across).

keep some genestealers near each unit of warriors, and use these to flank your opponant.  use the biovore to plant spore mines anywhere he can to disrupt your opponant.

basically, keep 1 unit of warriors and a unit of stealers on each flank

and the rest right up the middle, with the termagaunts at the forefront, to absorb a lot of damage so they can come back.  the hormagaunts can be used to go ahead of synapse range, as long as they assault.  dont expect them to kill a lot, but they can be used to block LOS with a combat, or get into combat with something you dont want shooting at you next turn, or something that's gonna assault you (deamon prince anybody).

use the biovore and shoot mines right infront of his shootiest units.  use the lictor to scare your opponant from being near any piece of cover.

this list has no real strengths in its composition, but has some possibilities for the tactics you can use.
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Offline kipper

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #8 on: May 5, 2008, 10:06:22 AM »
cheers guys,

jus read all of it, theres alot there!

i'm taking everything above into consideration, but as someone mentioned that "i hope he hasnt built the dex"  it was already built when i bought the whole lot for £50, but i cant complain. 
to be fair with crushing claws, a standard fex has only 2 attacks, which if i give him talons and crushers i will get 2 minimum anyway, no loss. but with tusks aswell has the pontential for 9 attacks on the charge. 6 on the D6, 1 for talons, 2 for tusked.    which i think its pretty awesome. but who knows whether i'll get a 6.   but with crushing claws i only need to roll a 3+ to match what i could get with 2x talons. so not a huge loss.
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Offline Mr.BoneSaw

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #9 on: May 9, 2008, 10:16:12 PM »
cheers guys,

jus read all of it, theres alot there!

i'm taking everything above into consideration, but as someone mentioned that "i hope he hasnt built the dex"  it was already built when i bought the whole lot for £50, but i cant complain. 
to be fair with crushing claws, a standard fex has only 2 attacks, which if i give him talons and crushers i will get 2 minimum anyway, no loss. but with tusks aswell has the pontential for 9 attacks on the charge. 6 on the D6, 1 for talons, 2 for tusked.    which i think its pretty awesome. but who knows whether i'll get a 6.   but with crushing claws i only need to roll a 3+ to match what i could get with 2x talons. so not a huge loss.

Sometimes I like to gamble too. What the hell give him the claws!! Next addition he'll be able to run and will be one scary SOB! Your opponent will have to take him serious.
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Offline Deathpepper

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #10 on: May 9, 2008, 10:46:06 PM »
Do you have the extra biomorph sprues for all these models? 
In any case, i'd cut the arms off the fex, drill the sockets out, and install magnets.  They're very inexpensive, and you can do it pretty easily even with a painted model.  Ideally, do the same with the tyrant and warriors.  You will never regret it. 

You say you don't want to get more models, but I urge you to look at picking up some second-hand stealers.  There's always tons of them for sale online dirt cheap, and they compliment any nid list. 

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Offline coredump

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Re: 'nids newb here!! (army list + help??)
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2008, 11:14:26 AM »
First, I completely support the 'magnet' suggestion.

Quote
but with crushing claws i only need to roll a 3+ to match what i could get with 2x talons. so not a huge loss.
True, the 'loss' is that the claws are much more expensive than the talons.

But the advantage claws give you... is that the opponent can't assume you will roll a '3.5'. to be confident of defeating the fex, he has to assume you will get lucky and roll a 6, maybe twice. So it forces your opponent to also gamble, or to overcommit to kill that fex.
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