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Author Topic: 'Stealer Scything Talons  (Read 1040 times)

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Offline CaptainReindeer

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'Stealer Scything Talons
« on: September 13, 2007, 03:37:24 PM »
So there's fairly consistent advice across this forum to concentrate on taking more 'stealers, rather than upgrading them... But personally I'm just not convinced!

For example, in the current list I'm working on I have a 240 point 'stealer unit... I'm deciding between either 10 x EC and ST or 12 with just EC...

The unit of 10 will get 30 attacks a turn, the unit of 12 only 24... Are people really saying that the extra durability of having 2 extra 'stealers is more than the extra lethality of 6 attacks per turn...??

Somebody's gonna have to show me some calculated counter examples before I'm convinced...!

Offline srintuar

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 04:17:48 PM »
So there's fairly consistent advice across this forum to concentrate on taking more 'stealers, rather than upgrading them... But personally I'm just not convinced!

For example, in the current list I'm working on I have a 240 point 'stealer unit... I'm deciding between either 10 x EC and ST or 12 with just EC...

The unit of 10 will get 30 attacks a turn, the unit of 12 only 24... Are people really saying that the extra durability of having 2 extra 'stealers is more than the extra lethality of 6 attacks per turn...??

Somebody's gonna have to show me some calculated counter examples before I'm convinced...!

It looks a bit different after some shooting:
Lets say the enemy is going to kill about 6 of your stealers before they charge.
Now you must compare 4 ST EC (16 attacks) stealers to 6 EC stealers (18 attacks).
Thats a pretty good argument to me to drop the talons and get the extra bodies.

Dont forget to factor in subsequent rounds of combat:
Assume that after the charge the enemies will kill 2 more stealers in retaliation.
Now you have to compare 2 ST EC stealers vs 4 EC stealers.

(For giggles, we can compare non-EC stealers, of which you would start with about 15. sadly, twice as many die to shooting, so you would end up charging with about 3 of them)

In summary, the scything talons are a bit overpriced when you factor in enemy shooting.
I would probably use them if they were a 2 point upgrade. I would also use them if I didnt think the enemy would
be able to shoot them before the charge. in my typical games, I think EC stealers work out best.





Offline Da Pittman

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 04:22:52 PM »
I found that taking the scuttling, talons, carapace and acid maw has worked pretty well for me.  I can get them closer to the action in the first round, more attacks and have a better change at survival and doing damage on the first attack.

Offline Hive Node

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 08:19:09 PM »
But the downfall for taking so many heavy-hitting point-soaking 'stealers, is that now you have less points to spend on other things like you HT or Carni's, or even your Warriors.
If you are reading this, you must be having fun. Right?

Offline Da Pittman

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 08:32:03 PM »
True but I normally keep them light anyway, just some big guns to pop at the tanks and my biovores to finish them off.

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 03:12:53 AM »
The other reason not to take talons on stealers is that it makes them too good. You really don't want them to wipe the enemy out in the turn you charge, because then you will be exposed to enemy shooting. You want to take two or four rounds of combat to do it, so you can then attack a new unit with impunity.
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Offline Da Pittman

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 03:26:19 PM »
I try not to attack a squad that is out in the open unless I have to, I like to run them through the middle or the edge so that when they punch right through they can move to the next squad.  This works great if they bunch up the units, but not to well for scattered troops.

Offline XCrusaderguy01

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 03:36:21 PM »
Lets also not forget to mention that more bodies will keep them a scoring unit longer.

Offline Da Pittman

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 04:00:43 PM »
Most of the time that is not a problem for me, I normally loose me fex’s before my stealers.

Offline Kimster

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2007, 02:42:22 PM »
Quote
The other reason not to take talons on stealers is that it makes them too good. You really don't want them to wipe the enemy out in the turn you charge, because then you will be exposed to enemy shooting. You want to take two or four rounds of combat to do it, so you can then attack a new unit with impunity

or you need to attack squads who are nearby, if you win you've a massacre and then you maybe can engage new enemies

Offline XCrusaderguy01

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Re: 'Stealer Scything Talons
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 02:59:26 PM »
Relying on massacre is not a good idea. Sure you can get 6, but you average little more than a regular 3" consolidate, and might be left out to dry with a 1" "move." Boom. You've got yourself a whole bunch of dead 20+ point models. Ironically enough, locked in close combat is a relatively safe place for small bugs like genestealers to be, given that shooting is their worst enemy. And the longer they are locked in combat, the longer they block fire lanes, and give other bugs a chance to catch up and help out. That's when you want to move on to the next squad.

 


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