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Offline Richard2

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Chaos balance
« on: March 19, 2003, 10:42:11 AM »
I don't want to start a "your army is cheezy!" "no yours is!" argument, but I've been pretty disturbed about some of the Chaos Armies I've seen. I'm actually pretty impressed that GW manages to keep most armies reasonably balanced, but the complexity of the Chaos codex seems to me to have given Chaos too many loop holes.

The particular army that has yet to be beated in our store (Manchester UK) is Iron Warriors. 1000 point for quick games. 6 obliterators (in packs of 2). A demon prince with wings and great weapon. A couple of 10 man furious charge SM squads in Rhinos (with extra armour and smokes).

They can outshoot most people. If you charge, they counter charge and you tend to get slaughtered. The problem is Obliterators are too good for their points cost and you can take a lot of them. And the specialisation allowed by veteran abilities means that troops can specialise too effectivly.

I've also seen other variants particularly with hopelessly hard Demon Princes and raptors for summoning.

Am I just being too sensitive, or is there too much flexibility in Chaos?

Offline Scars

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2003, 10:44:19 AM »
this is  the downside of making one book for 9 legions, you can easily take the shooty power of the Iron Warriors and mix it with the fury of bezerkers.......
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Offline Rork

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2003, 10:47:12 AM »

Am I just being too sensitive, or is there too much flexibility in Chaos?

Chaos is flexible, but pays a lot for it. In such a case I would try some vypers or something fast with AP2 weapons. There are always ways around such armies.
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Offline Scythe

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2003, 10:58:36 AM »
Did you say unbeaten! Ha what a joke. That army would be fairly easy to take out. It's only 27 models. Mate!

Offline Silverthorn

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2003, 01:49:54 PM »
You say obliterators are too good for their points.

These guys are 70 pts and can be easily killed by regular troop weapons.

I mean fire a whole squad of shuriken catapults in them or bolters and they will DIE.

Of course they have great saves and all but they will die to numbers.

Most people concentrate heavy weapons on obliterators. Ok wounding them is much easier but you will only make 1-2 wounds per turns.
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Offline Moonsinger

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2003, 02:36:29 PM »
Hm... Taking out Obliterators... hm... Vypers with starcannons, three squads with three in each. Killing does oblitirators WILL be funs at they can hide and on the assultturn, take a swing out and kill some oblitirators.
I dont think they will stand against 9 starcannons shots. neithers would nothing in that army do. Okay some heavy weapons on the deamon prince, but in a 1000 pts game I don't think he is full with deamonic gifts.
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Offline Sage

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2003, 02:45:33 PM »
I can under Richard2's plight.

Although I find most of the Chaos list balanced, the only thing I don't like is how powerful you can make a Daemon Prince. And a winged one at that. I have played against them, and used them before and find that they change the way you, and your opponent think.

I know you pay for what you get, but in the case of Chaos, they should have adopted rules that limited wargear on Daemon princes to the pt. limit of the game. A 175 pt Daemon Prince in a 750 pt game (yes, I have seen it) is simply not right.

I agree with Moonsinger though. Has this Iron Warriors player ever faced Eldar? A decent amount of starcannons would rip through the obliterators, and then they would have very little left to shoot with...



Offline Moonsinger

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2003, 02:52:15 PM »
I agree with Moonsinger though. Has this Iron Warriors player ever faced Eldar? A decent amount of starcannons would rip through the obliterators, and then they would have very little left to shoot with...

Thanks, And I do think that brightlance would destory much of his Rhinos.
Brightlance=Rhinos/Deamon prince maybe
Starcannons=Dead Obliterators
Dark Reapers=Dead Chaos SM, maybe even Obliterators?
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Offline rastlin

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2003, 03:49:45 PM »
no doubts, chaos ARE hard. but then again, they always have been, and probably always will be. obliterators are no tougher than any other troop - you've just got to know your enemy.
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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2003, 08:26:37 PM »
Oblits ain't even troops, but that army would be ridiculously easy to take out, especially if you are Eldar with all those AP2 weapons at your disposal.

Offline Scythe

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2003, 08:31:04 PM »
I could take his army out with my Orks.

Offline PowerFist4u

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2003, 09:28:52 PM »
There is a lot of flexibility in Chaos. They have awesome shooters (Obliterators) and insane h2h units. I do think there are some loop-holes in the new Chaos codex, but isn't there with almost all codexes?
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2003, 10:00:03 PM »
There is a lot of flexibility in Chaos. They have awesome shooters (Obliterators) and insane h2h units. I do think there are some loop-holes in the new Chaos codex, but isn't there with almost all codexes?

most armies have specific 'loop holes' kinda...

like... Bloodangels are known to be increadible in assault
you dont play shooty with them

chaos can make a super shooty army, or a close combat hell legion

i guess eldar could too, though they arent as tough overall.

with that 1000pt iron warriors list... howabout take a prism cannon, and scoot backwards 12'' every turn, they cant catch up! ;D
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Offline Valkor

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2003, 10:21:39 PM »
ha, what a sad army My Tau can easily beat the living crap out of that force! (that is, if Obl. are t 5?)

Offline Richard2

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2003, 08:07:48 AM »
Obliterators are VERY hard. Toughness 5, 2+ armour save, 5+ invulnerable, and two wounds. Reapers won't do it. Bright Lances will only do a wound a turn at best. Only strength 10 weapons will autokill and there aren't that many that can reach, and they still have a 1/3 chance of walking away. Without a doubt star cannons are best , but I don't want to be a player who takes nothing but Star Cannons. They are great weapons, but it seems unbalanced to me to take nothing but.

The problem with this particular army is if you are shooty you get a rhino and prince rush. If you are assault you tend to get blown to bits by the obliterators, then countercharged.

I went for the transports, knowing that would stop him choosing where to assault. That meant I took a lot of fire from the obliterators. None of his forces were spread out enough to choose an isolated target, so I assaulted one of his assault squads to stop them Furious Charging. I took a couple of turns to deal with them, but then the Obliterators turned up and held me while he repositioned his other sqauds. Guardians bounced off obliterators, D cannons couldn't get in range and wraithlord ended up being shot to bits by las cannons.

Now I could put together a force to take him out. Star cannons being the obvious way, but that's not the point. The point is that he has slaughtered his way through the store. He has found the weaknesses in the chaos Codex and exploited them expertly. And due to the complexity of the codex he can do that.

Offline PowerFist4u

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2003, 12:51:11 PM »
Although I don't see too many loop-holes for the Guard (which I guess is a good thing). Then again a lot of people were whining when Catachans came out saying "Now the IG has a good h2h unit. Cheese!"

But the IG has always had the Ogryn...
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Chaos balance
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2003, 01:32:16 PM »
Although I don't see too many loop-holes for the Guard (which I guess is a good thing). Then again a lot of people were whining when Catachans came out saying "Now the IG has a good h2h unit. Cheese!"

But the IG has always had the Ogryn...

three basilisk? with a few 100men to stand in front of them, i guess


how much terrain do you play with? perhaps some CTM popup attacks with vypers or falcons could take out the oblitherators
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