Topic: What are Eldar good at? (competitive)

[Lyonic]

So I have been looking at my collection lately and im trying to figure out what they are actually good at?

CQC is fail because we have no real delivery system or even a reliable enough unit to go toe2toe with other factions.

Shooting is mostly meh because if u want to run gun shizzle, just play tau or guard and let me know how that goes...

So we must be the psychic masters then right? Well no... its wayy to random to be used competitively imo and to expensive, 35pnt for a warp charge..


Most of my lists end up being spammy leaning on units like scatbikes, warpapiders etc I don't even think about what to put in a list until i have the mandatory
Wraithknight

Almost all lists I face are soo heavy on the above options that i cant see how to beat people now and im in such a rut...

Anyone got any ideas?

[Looshkin]

I'm far from being an expert at Eldar tactics. I'm also fairly far from being competent at Eldar tactics, but I know enough to say that Eldar definitely have a lot going for them.

You are right in saying that Eldar can't really go toe to toe with armies geared specifically to HtH or shooting.

But why the heck would you ever go toe to toe with someone?

Why fight a fair fight when you can stack the deck in your favour?

The Eldar force is ram packed with mobility. Either it moves incredibly quickly, or can Battle Focus. Being able to dictate the terms of battle is a powerful tool that is not to be underestimated. You can use the mobility of your army to concentrate force at a specific point of the enemy battle line, and then WJB or battle focus away out of sight so that return fire is minimised. then rinse and repeat. Draw the enemy towards you, drag them out of position and then smash that part of his force with everything that you have.

It might help if you posted the type of Eldar army you would like to run, or what you think might work, and then the more experienced generals on the board can offer suggestions as to how to tweak the list or what tactics to employ.

As a final point of note, I'm don't really follow the tournament scene at all, but the annual LVO, which is one of the bigger tourneys out there, was just held, and the top 2 players (admittedly playing optimised (and IMHO fairly boring) playlists) both used Eldar. Their list, per BOLS, can be seen below.

Alex Harrison 1st Overall – Eldar List (pdf)
Eldar CAD
Autarch Sky Runner, Jetbike, Haywire Grenades, Forceshield, The Path of Command
Windriders X 3, Scatter Lasers X 3
Windriders X 3, Scatter Lasers X 3
Windriders X 3, Scatter Lasers X 2

Warhost of the Pale Courts (From the FW Doom of Mymeara book) – Aspect Lord Shrine (means has to take – 3 Aspect Units of the same type) Craftworld Trait: Disciples of Vaul
Farseer, Jetbike
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Warp Spiders x 5, Exarch
Vaul’s Support Battery – Dcannon
Vaul’s Support Battery – DCannon

Wraith Construct – Skatach Wraithknight, Deathshroud Cannon

Aspect host
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch

Aspect host
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch

Ordos Xenos Inquisitor (2x servo skulls)

Sean Hayden’s 2nd Overall – Eldar / Dark Eldar (pdf)
Eldar CAD
Autarch
Windriders X 3, Scatter Lasers X 3
Windriders X 3, Scatter Lasers X 3
Windriders X 3, Scatter Lasers X 3
Warp Spiders X 5, Exarch
Void Shield Generator
Warp Hunter

Aspect host
Swooping Hawks X 8, Exarch
Swooping Hawks X 8, Exarch
Swooping Hawks X 8, Exarch

Corspethief Claw Formation
Talos X 5, Splinter Cannon X 5, Ichor Injector X 3

[Irisado]

CQC is fail because we have no real delivery system or even a reliable enough unit to go toe2toe with other factions.

I strongly encourage you to avoid falling into the trap of thinking 'this is fail, that is fail'.  Thinking like this only serves to make the situation worse.  Instead of focusing on what you perceive cannot be done, look at what can be done .

The Eldar army has plenty of options.

Let's examine your close combat question.  First off, why do you even need a delivery system?  Based on the analysis and reports that I have read this is an out of date concept.  Eldar move so fast on foot these days, why not try fielding assault units without expensive transports to ferry them around in?  I feel that transports are much better suited to transporting ranged units, and that was certainly my experience during sixth edition.

There are lots of posts here discussing the merits of using Eldar assault units.  Start by reading this topic.  There are a wide range of views and experiences on offer there, from both tournament and non-tournament players.

Shooting is mostly meh because if u want to run gun shizzle, just play tau or guard and let me know how that goes...

I disagree.  Eldar are the masters of mid to short range concentrated fire.  It is imperative to use the mobility of the Eldar to get into position to strike opposing forces with multiple units before they can do much about it.  Eldar are the masters of the flank attack.  Concentrate your units and focus your fire and you will reap the rewards.

What you cannot do is to sit back in your deployment zone and hope to defeat Imperial Guard or Tau in a shoot out.  It will not work.  You have to get up close and personal.  Also, remember that even if any models survive your concentrated fire, most Guard and Tau units range from poor to awful in close combat, so you can finish them off even with non-specialist assault Aspects.  It's a great advantage being equipped with assault ranged weapons .

So we must be the psychic masters then right? Well no... its wayy to random to be used competitively imo and to expensive

The psychic phase is problematic for all armies which have previously had a strong psychic element to their army.  This is not unique to the Eldar.

Most of my lists end up being spammy leaning on units like scatbikes, warpapiders etc I don't even think about what to put in a list until i have the mandatory Wraithknight

You mean Jetbikes equipped with Scatter Lasers, I assume?  'Scatbikes' would something else entirely.

I've seen quite a few of your lists in the past, and I agree that they're all very similar.  What I would be interested to see is what type of army lists you are regularly facing.  Is there any chance you could post a sample of those?  The ones which cause you the most problems would be particularly beneficial for us all to see.  Posting your own army list, along with the strategies and tactics you have employed to attempt to defeat your opponents would also be useful in terms of helping us to help you.

I also think that you might benefit from considering alternative strategies.  I'm not sure which ones you have already considered, but there are some articles which may be of some help.  I recommend that you take a look at the Discipline of the Autarch articles found here.  They were written for previous editions, but a lot of the principles still apply.

[Cavalier]

Lyonic... I'm really not sure what the heck you are talking about.

"Our Shooting is Meh?" D-Sctyhes, Wraithcannons, Scatter Laser Jetbikes, D-Cannon Batteries, Deathshroud Wraithknight, Inferno Cannon Wraithknight, standard Wraithknight, Warp Spiders, Avenger Shrines pumping out 90 bladestorm shots once a game, Warp Hunter, even the stupid Wave Serpent has more shots than anything outside a Punisher Leman Russ... barring very specific Tau builds, the Eldar are THE shootiest army in the game and the only army with INFANTRY toting destroyer weapons.

Sure our close-combat is middle of the road compared to Thunderwolves, Wraiths etc. Yet even still Banshees and Scorpions in Battlehost are making turn 2 assaults and the Scorpion exarch is a murder machine. Oh yeah and the Sword&Board Wraithknight is outright ridiculous in combat. Destroyer close-combat weapon, attacking at high initiative and then stomping... there's a reason he's so popular at tournaments.

Seriously Eldar are one of if not THE best armies in the game. I'm really sure not sure what you are driving at.

[Spectral Arbor]

Yeah... I only faced the 2nd edition Eldar codex once... but this is the most "high-end" codex on the power scale I've ever seen.

Considering that 135 points of Scatter Bikes score more hits, on average, than 150 points of Guardsmen [at long range] but hit with Scatterlasers instead of Lasguns... And can then hop back out of LOS, with longer range, and can, if desired, move 50 to 60 inches in a single turn, having 5 times the mobility of said Guardsmen [meaning they can move as far in one turn as Guardsmen can move all game] and you're somehow not beating Guardsmen at the shooting game?

And then you have D-Scythes to LITERALLY deal with ANYTHING that you can't hurt with Scatter Lasers.

You could literally, probably wipe out a unit 5 or 6 strong with the OVERWATCH from 5x D-Scythes. And then LITERALLY Stomp things to death with a Wraithknight.

And being the most amazingly mobile army in the game, Eldar are fantastic at fulfilling the win conditions of 7th edition.

EDIT: I forgot Warp Spiders! You shot me? *Consults Dice* Nope, I jumped out of Range / LOS. LuLZ. That's even better Damage Resistance than 'Crons. You can't hurt what you can't engage!

So, as mentioned, they're only "outshot" by some extreme Tau builds. They have widespread access to the two best types of shooting weapon types in the game, being Scatter Lasers and various "Ranged D-Class" weapons. They have the best Melee unit in the game [S&B WK] that is so cheap points wise it should be errata'd, and literally needs no other CC support besides another WK. They have the best army-wide mobility of anyone. They are, again, the best of the best, at everything except ability to shrug off damage, which Necrons still, for now, manage to do better.

Not a word of a lie, I've never seen a codex that so clearly "Best at Everything" than the current Eldar codex. The Eldar Dex, Tau, and Necrons with SM pretty decidedly in fourth. Tau / Crons might go Crons / Tau, but that's the only question.

Was this a joke post? Because if so, good on you.

[dog_of_war]

I think the major issue you are having is that you are looking for that one thing the eldar do well and you want to spam it. I've seen it in your lists, in your posts, you even state it here. What eldar do best and always have, is synergy. We don't have a 'this unit beats all, let's take a whole army of that' unit, except for maybe the wraithknight, but he's a Lord of war fir a reason. What we have is a codex of extremely playable, solid units that perform even better when they take advantage of each other's strengths and mitigate each other's weaknesses. No other army performs better as a whole than eldar. The army is stronger than the units it is comprised of. I don't think any other army out there can make the same claim. And that's what makes eldar so difficult to play, but when one can master this synergy they are nigh unstoppable. You can't just throw unit A against enemy B. You have to use unit A+B+C to systematically destroy your opponent. They have to be used precisely, with perfect timing and foresight. This is the strongest codex of the eldar I've seen to date for all the reasons pointed out by my fellow posters, you simply have to look at the forest through the trees to get the whole picture.

[Wyddr]

The Eldar do just about *everything* well. The only thing they don't do well is long-term survival when overextended, and Wraith Constructs are a good hole-filler for that particular issue, too.

If anything, some of their units are quite obviously too good (Wraithknights, Scatter Bikes, Warp Spiders) and the way their Decurion formation works, you can take entirely too many of those things. Honestly, with those three units, I can't quite see why you would bother with anything else.

Eldar are the primary reason I'm glad *other* armies have access to superheavies. 

[Lyonic]

Thanks for the replies, alot of great information here. Eldar have great shooting but they are bot the best, so when you get alpha striked turn1 it can turn that great into ok. And ok shooting isn't enough to disable the pain.

When I first started playing I thought reserves were quite stupid. Why have your firepower off the table on turn 1? Then it hit me last night; its because it guarantees its shooting.

for example lets say i have 10 jetbikes with scatter lasers pumping out 40 shots. If i lose 50% of them that's o ly 20 shots i can shoot in retaliation. However if I bring them on turn , I get 100% of the shooting...but wait turn one + turn two shooting surely is better than just turn two right?
well if you lose say 50% then 40-50% the next turn you are only getting 50-60% of the shooting. Which is way below. By the way i am assuming you will go second in the game(i can make sure i go 2nd but its not easy to go 1st)

but wait.. Why would you WANT to go second? One word fliers.

The best unit eldar have for shooting fliers are dark reapers with starshot missiles. If they are on the table at the start of turn 2 (my oponent going first), they will be priority. However once his fliers are on they are then vulnerable to the reapers coming on and killing then.


The real trick is getting resilient units to last those turns. IM thinking wraithknight scorpions, rangers etc. What u think? 

[Irisado]

Eldar have great shooting but they are bot the best, so when you get alpha striked turn1 it can turn that great into ok. And ok shooting isn't enough to disable the pain.

Taken out before being able to act by what?  It would be helpful to have some specific examples of which opposing armies and, specifically, which units are doing this to you, in order to identify any possible counter measures that you may be able to take.

[Lyonic]

Long range, High str, Low AP weaponry on a spammable scale. Ny local meta is about turn 1 alphas mostly

Alot of it has ignore cover via orders, gear or psychic abilities. You put your models on the table, then take them off before they move in my group.

[Irisado]

What about line of sight blocking terrain?

Also, you're being very general.  Which armies are you specifically talking about here?  Imperial Guard is one of them from the sounds of it.  If so, can you post your opponent's list?

[Fenris]

The thing with Eldar is that they are a "jack of all trades", allround or as the eldar call it "aspects of war". If you want to kill a specific unit in the game you can almost certainly find at least 1 unit in the eldar codex that are specialized to do just that.

Spejs Mahreens are similar to eldar in this, however they tend to be able to have a special weapons guy in each unit rather than a unit with a specific special weapon.
Mahreens can do this:
5 Mahreens
melta gun, power sword, missile launcher.
5 Mahreens
melta gun, power sword, missile launcher.
5 Mahreens
melta gun, power sword, missile launcher.
Eldar do it like this:
5 Fire Dragons
5 Howling Banshees
5 Dark Reapers
This is what makes eldar very powerful offensively, but very vulnerable defensively.
This is due to the mahreens need to get all 3 units within range of a tank to shoot it with all melta guns, while the eldar only needs the fire dragons to be in range. The drawback is that the 5 Fire Dragons can be easier taken out than all the meltgun wielding mahreens.

On top of this eldar also sacrifices some more durability in their statlines for speed.

In small point games eldar have a weakness in not being able to bring all aspects of war, however this is balanced by eldar superior speed and speed is more important in smaller point games, due to there is simply more room for each unit and eldar must capitalize on this.
In larger point games eldar can bring all aspects of war however will at some tipping point (which I haven't calculated exactly) eldar will need to get units with more power in them compared to their footprint on the board and this is where the wraith units come into play.

If you find yourself receiving alpha strikes, I suggest getting more models that have spent points on durability compared to their footprint.

You could also use the void shield generators, as it's a hard counter to alpha strikes.
Just like Sean Hayden did.

So the short answer to the question "What are eldar good at?" would be "allround aggressiveness"
Eldar can bring the pain in all 4 phases.

[Lyonic]

The thing is Irisado, i don't want to mention specific u its because its not about one or two units. Anything with range counters our speed. Anything with ignore cover seals the deal. We have garbage armour with no feel no pain, re-animation protocol or general re-roll saves. All someone has to do against us is bring long range ignore cover and we melt.

and Fenris has got it in one. I cant bring just one unit of fire dragons BECAUSE of what he says. In an ideal world i would bring a nice balanced army but ive already talked about rock paper scissors vs 3xrock and spam is stronger.

My big issue that a turn 1 can be so deadly, so devastatingly brutal that you are left handicapped before you leave the starting line. This is the problem with turnbased games that immediately start in range of each other. The 2nd player is almost always at a disadvantage.

[Irisado]

The thing is Irisado, i don't want to mention specific u its because its not about one or two units. Anything with range counters our speed. Anything with ignore cover seals the deal. We have garbage armour with no feel no pain, re-animation protocol or general re-roll saves. All someone has to do against us is bring long range ignore cover and we melt.

If you cannot provide specifics it undermines the arguments you are making because they are too abstract.  It also makes it more difficult for anyone to help you.  I again, therefore, put the following questions to you:

1. What specifically (armies and units) is causing the problem?  Please post either the units or the army lists which are giving you these issues.

2. Why can you not use line of sight blocking terrain?  It's one the primary defences against weapons which ignore cover.  I do not understand why it's impossible for you to take advantage of this at least some of time.  It's true that terrain will not always fall favourably for you, but it also cannot always be totally against you.

You keep persisting with making the same generalised arguments in topic after topic that the only way for you to win with Eldar is to spam certain units.  Based on the reports and discussions I see posted by many Eldar players and those who play against them, I struggling to understand why you are claiming that the Eldar army is not good enough.  The only conclusion that I can draw, based on the evidence which you have provided (please note that caveat, it's very important ), is that your opponents are outplaying you strategically and tactically, and that you would benefit from altering these facets of your game.

There are people here who can help you, but you need to help all of us to help you .  All this abstract argument from you is hindering your chances of receiving the kind of precision advice which, it seems to me, that you need.

Furthermore, in my first reply in this topic, I provided links to articles here.  Have you read them?  Did they help?

This is the problem with turnbased games that immediately start in range of each other. The 2nd player is almost always at a disadvantage.

It can be a problem with turn based games which mix infantry, vehicles, and larger models at such a large scale.  It's not a universal problem with turn based games .

[dog_of_war]

Spam is definitely stronger ... when you use it the first time and no one expects it, against lists you are expecting. After that people either stop playing you or they just bring a counter next game. With a spam list you have zero versatility. Sure x3 rock may seem stronger than rock, paper, scissors until the next time your opponent brings x3 paper and you cry 'no fair'.

You want durability throw in some wraiths. Better yet add a Phoenix Lord. Feugan has feel no pain I believe. Add a void shield generator and an escape hatch as so many others have suggested.

If your gaming group plays too competitive for your tastes, then find another group. Are you new to the game and you're playing experienced players? Ask them to take it down a notch. It's probably not fun for them wiping opponents off the board every game turn 1, as you mention, unless they are extremely competitive or just huge douches, which in either case you should find another group.

In any case the issue does not sit with the codex, as you can see from all the responses you have received, not one in support of your view. You have to learn to get out of the rutt you're in by changing your thinking. You want eldar to work like space marines or necrons, but they are completely different armies. Eldar are one of the toughest armies to play because of all the special rules they have and how those rules interact with each other. You need to find the correct recipe that works together and the people here are the best to help you with that. You just need to give us a chance to help. You say that there is no specific unit or army, but the issues you are having seem very specific to me. I don't think it's orks that are giving you first turn alpha strike worries. Just give us a chance, post a problem list and we'll make suggestions on how to tailor an effective list against it. If you want a trump army that beats everything, I think you're playing the wrong game.

[Lyonic]

The reason I don't mention units is because its not against the units.. Its about the principle. If I have 10 guns and you have 10 guns but i get to shoot first, the fight is over before it begins. Sorry but I play 2 games a week every week against a varied pool of around 20-30 people. I really don't want to list every army, turn, and dice roll as its not tactics but strategy.

My group does not play with much line of sight blocking terrain.. Its really luck if some of the 40k buildings have windows or solid walls.

Also i need to be clear, i am not being wiped of the table but taking too much damage turn 1. To ny point about a reserve alpha? Using many msu with am autarch to increase my firepower?

next time i get beaten ill post how.. If not to appease you guys

[magenb]

Long range, High str, Low AP weaponry on a spammable scale. Ny local meta is about turn 1 alphas mostly

Cloudstrike (under Falcon's) is the rule your looking for.
Alpha strike armies tend to be unbalanced and tend not to like being shot in the ass

There are other ways of dealing with them, but as Irisado suggests, knowning what is hurting you will give us a better idea of how to stop it.

[Irisado]

The reason I don't mention units is because its not against the units.. Its about the principle. If I have 10 guns and you have 10 guns but i get to shoot first, the fight is over before it begins.

This is both a simplistic and and unrealistic scenario.  For this to be true every gaming surface you plan on would have to be exactly the same for all the variables to be constant.  This type of scenario also relies on the absence of terrain.  Finally, you overlook the fact that the D6 is the dice of choice, rather than percentile dice.

Sorry but I play 2 games a week every week against a varied pool of around 20-30 people. I really don't want to list every army, turn, and dice roll as its not tactics but strategy.

The request was for you to post the list and/or units which are giving you the most difficultly, not every list which you play against or a battle report for every game.  If you're finding it so difficult to beat all 20-30 people you play against, I think that your tactics and strategy would benefit from some changes.

My group does not play with much line of sight blocking terrain.. Its really luck if some of the 40k buildings have windows or solid walls.

This is a problem.  Every 40K gaming table should feature line of sight blocking terrain.  I recommend that you ask your gaming group to consider introducing more of this terrain, or, if they are reluctant, make some yourself and bring it along with you the next time you play and add it to the existing terrain.

next time i get beaten ill post how.. If not to appease you guys

This is not about appeasing anyone.  It's about you receiving the help that you want.  We keep asking you for information, so that we can provide you with better help.  By not answering the questions being asked you're making it more difficult for us to help.  I'm sure that this is not the outcome that you desire.

[Cavalier]

Despite the lack of details on opponents, lists or games in general I can tell you that the Eldar codex is up for any challenge. You had to Eldar players with very different armies as the last men standing at the LVO which is an insanely competitive scene with highest levels of cheese you can imagine.

If you're tactics and unit choices become predictable to the members of your gaming group, especially a competitive one you're going to get beat. Same thing happened to me. I'm a one army guy with only a few different army builds involving largely the same units. I had to go WAY out of my way to have truly different army builds and learn new units and loadouts and more importantly CHANGE my strategy. I didn't change my play style but I needed to re-adjust how I attacked my opponents armies. You've always got to evolve your play or you're going to lose especially with enormous variety of armies allies and builds out there.

2nd you NEED LOS blocking terrain if you are playing competitive. Referencing the LVO they have enormous pieces of LOS blocking terrain on each and every table. At least 2 pieces big enough to hide a Knight class unit and more. I bring my own terrain to every game because the terrain selection is so miserable at my store. Its a pain to do, but I'm not going to play on planet "bowling ball" with amount of shooting out there. LOS blocking terrain is a must. All major tournaments use it, so if your club is really competitive they should too if only for means of practice for major tournaments.

As for appeasing us, its not about appeasing us. If you want advice on what to do we need to know your situation and what your up against. The Eldar codex can handle any army you probably just need to present some different builds to your opponents and make some terrain to give to your club or just bring it along for you and your opponent.