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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2017, 07:30:03 PM »
I think it's increasingly likely that the factions with nothing in Chapter Approved (That haven't received a codex) are lined up for a 2018 Q1 release. I'd be shocked if they weren't.
I agree with you on that one.  Imagine the nerd rage if they released Chapter Approved, and then the first codex of the new year was for an army that had point values included.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2017, 01:15:22 PM »
At face value, I was a bit sad at how little changes there was for the Harlequins with points. But, after I applied the changed points cost for the two weapons across my army, I gained almost 200pts. So, pretty great overall lol.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2017, 07:53:24 PM »
I was exactly one Shadowseer over points for running my Cegorach's Revenge list at 2000pts.

Course, the one game I played with the new point values was against Tyranids running the new Maelstrom mission where you army comes in piecemeal.  I barely made it out of my deployment zone the entire game...
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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I knew I had fans!!!

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Offline murgel

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2017, 07:19:32 AM »
...
The Land Raider VDR rules are less doom and gloom as I was expecting but still as silly as usual. You start with a set transport capacity and then remove transport space as you add weapons. The silly part is that a negative transport capacity is still okay. "Hey, my tank is carrying -4 guys!" So, fun for mucking about with but otherwise reasonably harmless.

Honestly? People even thinking about a negative transport capacity show some kind of insanity which really makes me question things.
The fact that a negative transport capacity is not possible is so blatantly obvious that there is absolutely no need to even mention that in a set of rules. to declare this as a rules mistake or bad design makes me smile in a very bad way.
Personally I liked those VDR rules as a first try and hope to see an advanced attempt soon.
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Offline admironheart

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2017, 05:08:34 PM »
The VDRs never should have been done away with IMO and ideas, rules and more MISSIONS is something I always support.

Personally I have high hopes for the hobby, it might get back to where it was back in 4th ed.

I agree.

I have 3 Tempest Super Heavy Tanks
I have 3 Mail Order Exodite Scout Walker models
I have the old old Original Falcon with 1 less weapon than the post 2nd ed.
I have a Wraith Tower
I have an open topped Eldar transport (much like a Raider)
I have a GW Mail order Harlequin Dreadnought
I have several other models like the Harlequin Benathai Familiar or Harlequin Mockingbird.

Most of those were 'canon' GW models at one point in time. Many if not most were GW designed, copyrighted and sanctioned or just outright sold by GW.

When the VDR came out it was the best thing they did since 2nd edition.

What was wrong was when players made monstrosities. One Gamer made a Super Heavy Flyer with 100 bolt guns.

As long as there would have been clear brackets and limitations and a penalty to kitbash new stuff....VDR was and would be fine.

It was meant in the original portrayal to make rules for models that used to have rules but no longer.

I have all these cool GW designed models and now I cant play them except with house rules.

It would go a long long way to fix player relations if it was brought back in some form.

Instead I suspect it is long dead as it would cut into their profit margins with 3rd party infringements.  Thus Profits will kill player goodwill.  I bet the staff in the 1980's would have a very different vision of how to handle this subject.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2017, 05:15:40 PM »
I don't know. The vdr rules in 3rd edition were terrible and horribly broken. I'm fine with vdr rules for open war games using power level, but never for matched play.

I like what they did with the landraider though. Give you a body with a few hard points you can mix and match with and use accordingly. Has structure to it.
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Offline admironheart

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2017, 07:52:57 PM »
I am not saying the VDR did not have faults.

But can you see where I have 12 40k models I can no longer play with. 10 of those had GW published/sanctioned rules.  That was over $300 of investment back in that period that I can no longer use. 

Unless Citadel Journal type of online or paper publication is dedicated to that sort of thing is made... then players like me just got a big hand gesture.

Imagine if some army with current models recently discontinued had the same treatment.

THAT is the very reason thousands of players quit the game when 3rd edition was released...and GW did not seem to mind just so long as they had already collected the money and had new kids with weekly allowances to milk.

The 'New' GW should revist some of the sins of the past and try to be more inclusive.  The Indexes and the recent FAQ have been great in that direction so far.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 07:54:23 PM by admironheart »
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Offline murgel

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2017, 04:35:10 AM »
... The vdr rules in 3rd edition were terrible and horribly broken. ...

This sentence is the core of the problem IMO. Those rules could be abused, all rules can be and as one can see in the tournament scene they are abused. Lists with 36 Dark Reapers etc.
Frankly, there are no rules that are broken! It is ALWAYS the player who does the abuse.
There are bad rules, unfitting rules even rules that contradict the fluff but any broken or abusive application is ALWAYS and ONLY the player.

I much prefer to have rules for building my own minis, vehicles etc. than not to have them. Let the competitive players do what they did for almost any edition and cut away the stuff that makes them unhappy. They are still a minority and GW would do well to cater to the majority.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2017, 08:40:48 AM »
I am not saying the VDR did not have faults.

But can you see where I have 12 40k models I can no longer play with. 10 of those had GW published/sanctioned rules.  That was over $300 of investment back in that period that I can no longer use. 



Huh, I've never even heard of any of many of those model kits before. How could scout walkers not be war walkers, wraithlord be a wraithlord, falcon be a falcon. I'm sure you could find ways to use most of those kits with existing rules.
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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2017, 08:53:32 AM »
I'm with Killersquid there. I don't see how you couldn't use your unique models as 'counts as', especially since their original function was very close to a contemporary counterpart.

For years I've had the original beasts of nurgle, with no 40k rules for them after 3rd edition. I just used them as chaos spawn after that. Powered armour ork nobs from rogue trader days became 'ard boyz or nobz in 'eavy armour. Where there's a will there's a way. Since they're all GW models, no one can say you can't use them, even in your local GW store. You just have to use an applicable rule set that is relevant.

Offline admironheart

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2017, 09:32:16 PM »
Huh, I've never even heard of any of many of those model kits before. How could scout walkers not be war walkers, wraithlord be a wraithlord, falcon be a falcon. I'm sure you could find ways to use most of those kits with existing rules.

A Scout Walker was a Exodite walker with only 1 gun.  It was made from Mail Order....had a GW part number to order all the parts needed. Yes GW Made a part order so you could kitbash the model. Then they published an article and rules on it.

Why can it not be a War Walker?  Well Scout walkers were faster, had a holo field so it was really hard to hit but it was weaker armor and ONLY had 1 weapon. Try taking a War Walker to a Tournament and tell them you are only paying for 1 weapon and not buying a second....That will fly.

My only recourse is to do as you say and say they count as Vypers. And pray most opponents will be ok with it....(I still don't have any area suitable to mount the extra twin linked catapults or the shuriken cannon upgrade of a viper though) But the model looks cool as anything.

The Benethai Familiar was a Shadow Seer Familiar. Same as the Exodite Scout Walker, GW made a part number for it. It was published and had rules. Now I have a cool mini with absolutely nothing in entire Aeldari line that it could mimic.

The obsolute most horrible models in the elder line was the epic titans that came out around the same time as 3rd ed 40k.  They were ugly, clunky, school science project looking stuff.  At the same time they came out with the ugliest of all the Wave Serpent models (epic and 40K) got rid of the Tempest Super Heavy Grav Tank and it took forgeworld a while to finally move the line into the current sleek look.
Am I supposed to use the Tempest as a Lynx....I guess I can stomach that except I'm missing 6 shuriken catapults. (The Scorpion just seems too big and powerful to be a Tempest)
If the Cobra is a Shadowsword equivalent and the Scorpion is a Storm Blade, then the Tempest is a Bane Blade equivalent.

I could try to use some flyer rules (and just not try to abuse the movement rules for a massive tank) from any of the Aeldari line but again when the big guns almost fit....then there are no representation for the small arms or twin linked shuriken cannons.

The Harlequin Dreadnought can easily be made a count as an craftworld unit. Ill give you that much.  I wish I had something that would make the Pyschic Lance different than a Bright Lance or Missile launcher.  I think the WraithSeer is as close as you can come with a Distortion Cannon set up.

The others I can live without but these are my main gripes.  Please find me a nice count as for them.....it don't even have to be craftworld.....just a legal matched play unit to go with my elder.

Post Merge: December 29, 2017, 11:01:14 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.


I like what they did with the landraider though. Give you a body with a few hard points you can mix and match with and use accordingly. Has structure to it.

Not sure if you ever saw the original article for the Thunderhawk Gunship.  this was prior to them making an actual model. (which I think came only months later as a limited time offer)

The rules were very much like the landraider.  You had the base vehicle. There were some standard weapons and transport abilities then there were 4 hard points.

Those hard points could be equipped with about a a half dozen different types of stuff.

A pair of Rapier Laser Destroyers, Sensor Equipment, Missiles of all types, Grenade launchers with d6 deviating bursts per launcher and Bombs of all sorts.

It was a really neat idea. Glad to see that after 20 years they brought it back!!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 11:01:14 PM by admironheart »
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2017, 11:06:13 PM »
I have no idea what a tempest is, so I can't really help you there. I don't see why you can't just glue a second gun on the walker.
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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2017, 03:40:19 AM »
Here you go Killersquid

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2017, 06:00:38 AM »
Why can it not be a War Walker?  Well Scout walkers were faster, had a holo field so it was really hard to hit but it was weaker armor and ONLY had 1 weapon. Try taking a War Walker to a Tournament and tell them you are only paying for 1 weapon and not buying a second....That will fly

None of which matters if you are using the count as rule.  Even if you don't have a second weapon attached, you can explain what the second weapon will be on each one and most players I've ever encountered would be happy to play against you.  I cannot vouch for it being acceptable at tournament level, but tournaments have always done their own thing in this regard, it's nothing new.

I get the impression that you expect Chapter Approved to cater for every single model that was ever produced.  This is beyond the scope of the modern Chapter Approved.  Its brief is, essentially, to address imbalances, fix errors, and provide some additional rules.  GW is only going to be publishing rules for current models.  I have seen nothing from Chapter Approved to suggest that they're going to break this rule and many of these old models are simply too similar to the existing range for GW to be concerned about.

Quote
The obsolute most horrible models in the elder line was the epic titans that came out around the same time as 3rd ed 40k.  They were ugly, clunky, school science project looking stuff.  At the same time they came out with the ugliest of all the Wave Serpent models (epic and 40K) got rid of the Tempest Super Heavy Grav Tank and it took forgeworld a while to finally move the line into the current sleek look.
Am I supposed to use the Tempest as a Lynx....I guess I can stomach that except I'm missing 6 shuriken catapults. (The Scorpion just seems too big and powerful to be a Tempest)
If the Cobra is a Shadowsword equivalent and the Scorpion is a Storm Blade, then the Tempest is a Bane Blade equivalent.

The original Eldar titans from Space Marine were, and remain, works of art, along with the original Wave Serpents.  I agree with you about the ugly Epic 40K models, however, comparing Epic to Warhammer 40,000 is akin to comparing apples and oranges.  The reasons for this are that it's still possible to play earlier version of Epic and to use all the Space Marine models, while there are also appendices in the rules for newer versions of Epic which allows these old models to be used as they are or as count as.  Epic, as always, streets ahead of 40K in terms of flexibility.  No suyerheavies, be they Tempests or otherwise, actually belong in 40K, because of balance and scale issues, in my opinion, so my solution to you would be not to use any of them ;).

My question to you in the light of all of this is what do you expect from Chapter Approved in relation to Eldar Tempests?  I don't understand how you're relating this issue to this topic, so some clarity would be greatly appreciated.

Here you go Killersquid

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Offline admironheart

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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2017, 04:57:43 PM »
First I agree with you.  I think all Lords or War style units should be for over 2k or apoc games only.

Second the discussion had veered off onto the VDR-lite aspect of the New Land Raider rules and the functionality of a VDR system in current 40k

Third I think that Chapter Approved would totally be the wrong venue to carry out some type of Citadel Journal-esque (player/game designer/game developer) optional rules.

As you mentioned the vision statement/mission of Chapter Approved is fine as is.  In fact the  Option mode of the Land Raider should never be included in such a tome as Chapter Approved.  Alternate Terrain, character creations, VDR, Kitbashing, etc should all be in a separate entitiy. Online or published but it would harken the days of GW sanctioned but of course optional (thus not home-brewed) and most likely never permitted in the tournament scene.

The Main thing is to have a GW sanctioned way of playing with strangers so that home brew is not at all a thing.

Chapter Approved is doing its job well on its first outing this edition. IMO

Post Merge: December 30, 2017, 05:01:18 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

As far as the suggestion on the Exodite Scout Walkers.....I think only 1 weapon mounted and going by several examples in the current rules about double shooting....to say that the Shuriken Canon gets double shots off would be a nice 'counts as' 2 shuriken cannons.

There is always a will....its just finding the way that can be difficult to manage.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 05:01:18 PM by admironheart »
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Re: Chapter Approved
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2017, 07:36:05 PM »
For me at least, if someone brought an older GW model that no longer had direct rules in print and just wanted to have it counts-as a unit that has rule sin print, I'd be 100% okay with this. Even if it isn't perfectly WYSIWYG, or the new unit has 2 scatter lasers instead of 1 or something, I'm fine with it. I'm more concerned with things being understandable at a glance and looking cool than being a huge stickler about these things. I consider myself a friendly player though, so it's possible that at a tournament you could be out of luck.
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