Topic: Anti americanism

[Anatolian Guy]

Just to clarify, the people that hate the US, mostly hates their goverment, and its not since Bush, this has been around for some time. So lets say that the media just made this popular in some way.

Anyway, sorry Federal Hero but it is not that they are the most powerful country in the world why many hate them, its because the means they use to stay in power why it is hated the US.

So I hope many of you read this clarification and understand that this hatred in general is not unjustified, you just need to see the otherside of the coin.

[Federal Hero]

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Anyway, sorry Federal Hero but it is not that they are the most powerful country in the world why many hate them, its because the means they use to stay in power why it is hated the US.

I agree. To some degree that's what I was meaning to say in my earlier post. But just to clarify, I also stated other reasons why the US is hated and I didn't mean to make it sound like the sole reason as to why they are hated is because of that fact that they run the world. 

[Fury]

I think we have a poor image problem. The intelligentsia and academics are largely insular, traveling in their own circles, and our media caters to the lowest common denominator, which is why our popular culture that gets exported makes us look like Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, and Ryan Seacrest.

I just got back from a lecture in Ann Arbor (the last liberal bastion in Michigan!) where David Lynch (yes, him) Dr Stephen Hegel (?) a quantum physicist briefly talked about transcendental meditiation and levels of brain activity, and it was a full house!

The problem is perception. 46% of us did not vote for Bush. Many of us listen to NPR, and lament the "dumbing down" of America. Our education system at the grade school levels is dangerously inadequate, and we will be surpassed by India and China in terms of technological innovation. About the only thing the U.S. has going for it is that intelligent people from around the world come here, becasue it is very easy to set up business, medical and legal practices, etc. And information workers make hundreds of % more by working in CA, VA, GA, FL.

So yes, as I have said before, it's our government and our pop culture that gives people abroad this perception. And not a few of us think this is a serious problem.

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

The problem with America is a balance between Idealism and Indulgence. It keeps shifting back and forth, and things get pushed aside as it does. That, and money. You put money in one place, it gets taken from another. There's no other way to put it, really.

About us being stupid, that's all the balance of the government. It sways from smart to dumb, smart to dumb. The rest of us are average like anyone else. From smart to dumb again.

It's all about balance, see? Someone has to be the millionare's burger-flipper.

[Iron-Hand Ace]

I was just surfing around the internet, and I found the most fasinating web site. 

www.ejectejecteject .com

Particularly one article, one which has particular bearing on our discussion:

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000066.html

Now, this man is a conservative/moderate American, so I don't agree with all his views.  However, many of them make perfect sense.  His essays (and he has quite a few) are long, so I'll just post this section:

"The idea that all would be well if only America would retreat from the world and stay at home is a pernicious and seductive one. It appeals not only to those that hunger after the freedom to do mischief in our absence as it does to our natural sense of isolationism. It has been the mantra of communists, totalitarians and elitists of every vile stripe for well over a hundred years. It is utterly and completely wrong. Political power has never been removed from the world -� it has only been replaced. And so our choice �- now pay attention you No Blood For Oil types -� is not between power and no power. It is a choice only of what kind of power will fill that vacuum. Chinese? Russian? European? We have seen all of these before. The horrors they have inflicted, with far less absolute power than the US wields, do not leave me pining for those alternatives. Someone is going to be the world power, or tear the world apart fighting for it. And no matter how hard we may wish it, the winner will not be a Blindfolded Jury of Archangels."

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

That is a very good point. I guess I'm pushing for the troops to come home because it's all been very depressing these past 4 years. Bad news that led to worse news and so on. I'd just like to see something happen with our country that'd make me smile, like a new space race or something. Yes, it'd just be bread and circus, but I for one wouldn't mind it.

[Pulse]

Well, i am not sure if americans know this, but most people in the world hate america at the moment.  Why do you think this is?
Firstly i do not hate americans, however i would like to unpick the reasons for this current trend today.  I will start off with listing some reasons i see, and why they might be reasons, Oh, you'll see what i mean

People hate americans because:

Their stupid.  Sorry guys, but many people in Brittan think your stupid.  This has not always been the case, and i think the main reason for this is Bush.  Bush is not terrably bright, and you have thus been steriotyped to a point that when people hear an american accent, they are expecting them to say something like 'i know fish and humans can co-exist peacefully'.

War in Iraq  The american people largly supported the war in Iraq.  Now i know that we in the UK went as well, but we largly opposed it, with HUGE demonstrations in London taking place, and there has always been an anti war feeling, and a Tony Blair hate, which leads me to my next point.

We hate tony blair  WAIT FOR IT  English people feel that tony blair is Bush's lap dog, and feel that we have lost part of our leader to the americans (and if you wanted to know why we voted in the prat again, don't ask me, i didn't vote for him, although to be fair on other people, there was a distinct lack of any competition.)

Americans are arrogant  One of the hardest reasons i have to pinpoint, but i think that americans partriotism has something to do with it, help here!

Ok, so there are some point i think are the reasons, others (also, i would prefer this to be a constructive thread as opposed to outright slagging off).

In all, i think a large reason is due to ignorance.  America is such a diverse country that to make such general assumtions is a little wrong, however, thats just me.  Comments please.

well. coming from an american here is my opinion.

1. We are stupid. Not everyone, but as a society I think we are. This is not helped by the fact that a man with an IQ that even he can count to is helping to run the country.

2. I myself am against the war in Iraq, but unfortunatley many people think it is a good idea.

3.Not really a fan of Tony Blair. This isn't helped by the fact that he is "friends" with Bush.

4.Americans are arrogant as a society. We think we are the head cheese of the world.

5. One thinkg makes up for all of this though: we have beautiful women (the ones that aren't 40 pounds overwight that is).

Hmmm...looks like I was born in the wrong country. UK here I come!!!!

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

The only reasons I'm really staying in the US?

Howard Stern, and choice of doctors. Most countries, it's any bastard who can sneak by a review board with a smile, rather than skill.

I'm lying, but those are the ones that stick out in my mind.

[Adarachir]

All of the reasons above basically, explains why I hate the US, or more correctly, dislikes it...


And now, some teasers on the world's(and even the US..) veiw on the USA...

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1568&NEXTID=0&PREVID=1574&DISPLAYORDER=20040906124325&CAT=anims&NSFW=0&page=5&genre=0&rating=nsfw_sfw#Main

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1564&NEXTID=0&PREVID=1568&DISPLAYORDER=20040903213741&CAT=anims&NSFW=0&page=5&genre=0&rating=nsfw_sfw

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1740&NEXTID=0&PREVID=484&DISPLAYORDER=20041201171751&CAT=anims&NSFW=5&page=4&genre=0&rating=nsfw_sfw

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1843&NEXTID=0&PREVID=1847&DISPLAYORDER=20050125163735&CAT=anims&NSFW=0&page=3&genre=0&rating=nsfw_sfw


*sits back, waiting for flak*

[faithlessmonkeigh]

In my country  (not the US or UK), i think that there are dumb people - thats not fair... umm fairly ignorant onesided undereducated greedy people, adn there are lots - maybe even 30 to 40 percent of the population.

And unfortunately these people stand out more than the normal people do... from what i have heard the US has a problem with average IQ - probably cause the public schools are crud and the media is not working for the people but trying to make money off the people.

CNN or FOX news: the difference? not much.

I believe that there is a majority of idiot people - ignorant one sided undereducated inward looking desperate people, this majority is making the news alot more than the smart ones are...

i got no problem with these people - i do have a problem with them trying to preach to me, or tell me that they know best.

I read somewhere that 85% of all adult Americans have never owned a passport - talk about insular inward looking... they jsut need to get out and see the real world.

I think that Amreicans are probably all good people - as good as anyone else is- even the dumb ones.... but they got a damn chip on their shoulder.

No matter how great you are - people are still gonna resent you if yo have an ego problem.

FAithless
i am anti amercan... not the people or the way of life - just waht is happening in the US and how it is being run - like its any of my business.

[Sallie Killer]

I read somewhere that 85% of all adult Americans have never owned a passport - talk about insular inward looking... they jsut need to get out and see the real world.

It takes money to see the world from America, not all us americans can travel. Its not cheap to even travel in the U.S. let alone across the oceans.

umm fairly ignorant onesided undereducated greedy people, adn there are lots - maybe even 30 to 40 percent of the population.

This seems to be a running thread here, but let me point the finger in the other direction. Its pretty ignorant and onesided to say such a thing also.

And going on about our tabloids and reality t.v. come on, I see British tabloids all over the place and reality t.v. we also got from foreign countries. Not one I can think of is an American original. That just makes me laugh.

Granted America has problems, but it helps  no ones cause when you just sit there and say "I hate America because..." I mean whose country could we not sit here and just pick apart? none, they all have problems. but they also have great attributes too. I think if I have a chip on my shoulder its because I feel like I have to defend myself against all these much more intelligent and enlightened people telling me why I am so dumb and how I am ruining the world around them. Like they are  not a cause themselves. When you have enough people doing that you tend to build up defenses. Which granted can seem arrogant. Maybe thats why we tend to see Brits as snobs? Could be its just what we choose to look at?

[Dralith]

"I find it strange that people 'do not hate americans, they hate the nation'.  So you hate a nation that is founded on the ideals of freedom and justice for all, a nation where it is possible to be a citizen without loosing your identity (irish american etc.), a nation founded on imigration, and where imigration is seen as a positive thing?  Please enlighten me here"

This is because many people have a violent dislike of US Foreign Policy and the glorification of extravagance espoused by (i hate saying 'the media' cos often it's not the media) the basic lifestyle and dreams (as we see them) of the American people. It is also that this lifestyle etc. comes at the expense of teh majority of the rest of the world (most of whom incidentally are too busy trying to survive to have time to hate America, or anyone for that matter), and that AMericans seem entirely oblivious to this.
Despite this, when we actually engage in conversation with Americans (rather than just grinding our teeth at loud tourists telling anyone who cares what they think about our country - complimentary or derogatory it doesn't matter, and i will knife anyone who mentions Lord of The Rings) we find it very difficult to dislike them, as they are in general very friendly, well-intentioned people. And sometimes naive enough to be cute.

My 28 year old chef cousin, for example, who doesn't drink but smokes the reefer every day, and his lawyer sister (and her husband) are prime examples. Really, truly great people.


As to "founded on the ideals of freedom and justice for all", this is another point. Foundation is one thing, reality is another. Do you really see America as committed to freedom and justice for all? Is it just to disenfranchise felons? And how many other nations are founded on these principles? France, for one, and i seem to recall very similar sentiments in the founding document of a country known as Vietnam. Hmmmmm

Someone made the point that in Athens 2/3 were slaves and only male citizens got to vote (i think he said white too, but CITIZEN is in fact the key word here - to be a citizen you had to be born in the city to citizen parents). I don't see what you're trying to prove. Up until the early 20th century most 'democratic' nations only gave the vote to white male landowners, and some even got multiple votes. Oregon was I think the first state in the (western) world to allow female suffrage, and New Zealand the first nation, in 1893 (I note GBR took a looong time to get around to this.) And removing landowning requirements took a while too.
In fact in NZ the Maori got universal male suffrage before the Europeans - but this was due to the collective nature of Maori land ownership, and they could only vote for the grossly under-representative Maori MPs


And Americans have been regarded as brash, loud and stupid since long, long before Bush - however he did 'confirm' a lot of our opinions. They weren't super well-liked during WWII (mostly by br soldiers as the US troops in engerland were probably cuckolding them)


...aaaand I've lost my train of thought and now i must go drink. Cheers

[faithlessmonkeigh]

And going on about our tabloids and reality t.v. come on, I see British tabloids all over the place and reality t.v. we also got from foreign countries. Not one I can think of is an American original. That just makes me laugh.

ummm no, i meant your news services and the like - who cares about american sitcoms...
i dont think that anyone has a problem with US morals, or values, or the average bloke - just the foreign policy and the arrogance of the average stupid american - i was also saying before that in my country its about 30% of dumb people - im not sure about the US - maybe more maybe less, which either one it seems that all the dumb one's are getting all the coverage.

faithless

[troup leader]

its a shame. people are pissed at us becuse of the role we play in the world. we need to take a step back and worry about our selves. what happend to the space programe. dammit we should have been to mars and back by now insted of what we are doing now. mabey we can use all the oil we liberate from the terrorists to get us there. on second thought mabey tahts why they hate us. they hate us because we are like a comic bookish super villan. we will take all the worlds oil and use it to fule our space program.

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

No, that would be actually altruistic, rather than fake altruistic. 

[Sallie Killer]

i was also saying before that in my country its about 30% of dumb people - im not sure about the US - maybe more maybe less, which either one it seems that all the dumb one's are getting all the coverage.

Is that your own personal opinion or did the government test everyone in the country to find out that percentage?  just curious.

[Seer Fox]

I find it strange that people 'do not hate americans, they hate the nation'.  So you hate a nation that is founded on the ideals of freedom and justice for all, a nation where it is possible to be a citizen without loosing your identity (irish american etc.), a nation founded on imigration, and where imigration is seen as a positive thing?  Please enlighten me here.

That's the ting though isn't it? FOUNDED on those principles. As has been pointed out in numerous news stories, those principles have been ignored on several occasions recently, and indeed are increasing in number.

So yes, I dislike American foriegn policy. I dislike the American government clamping down on American and Irish freedoms. But overall...I'm indifferent to the American people.

The good people, that is.

Ciat,
Seer Fox

[faithlessmonkeigh]

oh no... we definatley did a test on the nations stupidity

sarcasm is funny sometimes but dont use it as a sole point of attack.

I mean dumb, selfish, ignorant; as in people who are ignorant of others and their views, who want more moeny form the govt, whose who vote on the premise that our country is going to be inundated with hordes of foreigners who want to destroy our way of life, ppl who think that their society is better than others, those who think that the way that things are now socially is fine adn how it should be..... inbreath


ppl who voted for national in the lasted election in my country becasue of the promise of massive tax cuts only - or those who voted for destiny NZ who wants to take us back to the dark ages and spend massive ammounts on upgrading our armed forces - notice i talk about my own country- so hardly anyone can discredit me on this - i'd like to hear comment form any kiwi's.


basically - ppl who are selfish inward looking stupid ppl - evryone has em - and i was making the point that they are suddenly becomming very powerful all of a sudden.

faithless

[Dr. Ravingburger]

As an American, I feel a need to take part in this discussion.
 Firstly, Bush is not stupid. Look at his college grades, they're pretty high.
Moving on to the War in Iraq. Well it all started when the terrorists attacked us, so we retailiated. We then got attacked by Iraq, so we captured Saddam, and we have held free elctions there.
Ok, so most Americans are stuck-up and do stupid things (like me), that doesn't mean all are. You are generalizing way too much.  Personally, I'm proud to be an American. If I had the choice to go anywhere, I would stay in the U.S. You guys need to keep in mind that overall, were a pretty good country.

[downundercadet07]

I'll give you a little insight into what it is like being an american

-- That voted for Bush twice

-- That is in the military

-- That is also an Australian citizen

-- That doesn't live in America

There is a thread here somewhere called "war" it is a bunch of people posting pictures that would beat other pictures. On the second to last page, there is a group of US soldiers, and the caption says, "Along comes the American soldier to torture, rape, kill and destroy anything that is different than them. (Which happens to be anything smarter than silly putty)"

So-- picture yourself as me. I'm a soldier, just going on line to read up about 40k stuff, and I have to be subjected to this. I mean, I have friends serving in Iraq, and I know several people (from my unit) that have been killed in action. This is saying that my friends, who died in combat, were rapistis, murders, sadists and idiots. Can you imagine what it is like, just trying to go online and enjoy yourself when you are constantly bombarded by these things? Can you imagine how miserable is? And then the fact that a large percentage of people here, read my post, see that I am a soldier, that I voted for Bush, and that I support the Iraq war, and assume that I am a criminal, or an idiot brain washed war machine. I mean- nothing could be further from the truth! It doesn't even occur to these people that maybe, just maybe, they are wrong, and the sheer amount of spite and hatred they have for people like me is unjustified. It makes me very, very, sad.

I will leave you with a quote from Theodore Roosevelt, a quentissential American, Statesman, Soldier, Adventurer, President.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

I hope-- perhaps foolishly, that the critics on this board may read this, and come to have a deeper understanding of 'the man in the arena'