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Author Topic: Flaming Americans.  (Read 11220 times)

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Offline Scars

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2002, 10:36:15 PM »
scars, the russians made many sacrifices but perhaps you should study patton and see how he waited outside berlin cuz IKE told him to LET the russians have it.

uhhh, no. he was continuing he drive into Germany and Czechoslavikia
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Offline Zeus

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2002, 10:37:22 PM »
I have his frigging diary ok? He wanted berlin and would have had it but Ike said NO
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Offline Communist

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2002, 10:38:23 PM »
Zues please stop making my points for me.
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Offline Scars

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2002, 10:40:20 PM »
I have his frigging diary ok? He wanted berlin and would have had it but Ike said NO

If he had of set foot in Berlin the Red army would have killed him and his company.
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Offline Lomendil

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2002, 10:42:51 PM »
yup, only gonna be me independantly, not my country doing it. Cheers.

Oh , then you need your own standard , to avoid sullying the Stars and Stripes .

Offline Zeus

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2002, 10:43:51 PM »
communist, you said the country does it. Wherin the fact that i am doing it , not the country. But i guess what more could one expect from a person who follows a system of blind idealism that has repeatedly FAILED.

Scars, here we go again... im sure the inept red army commanders with the beleagured troops would have been able to take on the most skilled allied commander of the war...... with a whole division... (not company) at his back.
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Offline Scars

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2002, 10:45:52 PM »
Scars, here we go again... im sure the inept red army commanders with the beleagured troops would have been able to take on the most skilled allied commander of the war...... with a whole division... (not company) at his back.

yes he had good skills etc, but he was a open field fighter. The Red Army had gone through Leningrad and Stalingrad; they where the best city fighters of them all. Also, the Red army had much higher Morale than the Americans.
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Offline Lomendil

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2002, 10:47:18 PM »
Zhukov would not have been a push-over for Patton .

Also , Soviet tanks were far superior to American ones , and they had them , backed up with artillery , in huge numbers .

Not to mention the masses of veteran infantry that they had .


The Americans would have been very hard pushed to beat them , if they could at all .

Offline Communist

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2002, 10:48:32 PM »
Zues I hope you are not a reflection of your countrymen. If you are everything bad being sad about your people would be true.

On a personal note: Bring it on fly boy

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Offline Archon Kojourin

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2002, 10:49:30 PM »
Duh, scars.  I've ALWAYS said that the ALLIES won the war.  The Russians dealth with Germany on the East side and the other Allies on the West.  There were people that said we did nothing and all I said was that we did.  The Russians did thier part but not the ENTIRE thing.  That was my argument.  I never denied thier part in the war nor played it down in the slightest.

Other arguments were the figures that you state about "collateral damage".  I'm in the military and know our Rules of Engagment and Law of Armed Conflict very well.  Yes, it happens but no where near the scale that you suggest.  It's insulting not to mention a lie.  Hell, I posted about that wedding incident in Afganistan from an article I read.  Everyone here (me included) thought it was a fighter aircraft that did it.  Not many (if any at all) knew that the aircraft was directly fired upon by the "ceremony".  All I did was provide the other side of the story as found by the investigation.  Case in point, nobody here knows everything.  I have learned a few things myself.  

And that is what sets a lot of us Americans off.  When people talk about American in general.  In general would encompass both the government and people and its sometimes difficult to distinguish in some arguments.  Many of us agree with you on some points believe it or not.  But you have people that twist statistics and such.

And of course whenever we do try to explain our side of the story as to why our government does some of the things it does, and the good things it does, we do become "patriotic beslubbers" and "brainwashed imperialists" or whatever in everyone's eyes.  Like Zues said, our own media was against us (not controlled by the government) and put all these conspiracy theories into people's brains.
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Offline Zeus

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2002, 10:54:28 PM »
Zhukov was good, and so were the men he was leading, but quantity is a quality to itself. And im sorry to say their were too many Doughboys in that area for the Reds to deal with. + You are assuming that the russians and americans would have met IN berlin, when in fact since patton would have been there weeks sooner, he could have chosen ground of his choice.

Communist, normally im much more calm, but a string of anti american threads has pushed me a little too far and i will tend to say things i normally would hold back from. I dont see how i would be a reflection of everything bad just because I am a firebrand, i do realize what we have done wrong.

ON a personal not: i would not degrade myself to being a flyboy. Infantry all the way.
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Offline Archon Kojourin

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2002, 10:58:10 PM »
Remember, if you do become an officer in the Marines you will need Air Support.   ;D
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Offline feintstar

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2002, 10:58:23 PM »
The most skilled Allied commander in the war is generally considered by most History books to have been Zhukov. The Russian Troops weren't really too beleagured, and had the best Tanks in the entire war in the form of large quantities of T34 85s alongside IL1 and 2 Josef Stalin Tanks and KVs. This is born out by the fact that American Lend Lease tanks to Russia were considered inferior by Russian Commanders and relegated to patroling the Norweigan front.

However, U.S. Air superiority would have taken a heavy toll on the Red Army.

Though I was under the impression that Patton, while being in Germany, didn't get too close to Berlin. While he wanted it, the Russians were closer and would get there sooner. Ike just said don't worry about trying, the Reds were going to get there first anyway, and were quite annoyed about the 20 000 000 Russian Dead during the war, and wanted some vengeance, such that it wouldn't be too smart for the American army to get in the way...

The Red Army defeated the Bulk of the Wermacht, in terms of actual fighting, hence the 20 000 000 casualty figure. One day of the battle for Stalingrad had greater casulaties than all the allies during the entire war (true).

However, we should not denigrate the American Role to too great an extent. The Drive from Normandy and the Allied bomber offensive did take considerable diversion of German Resources, which could otherwise have been difficult on the Eastern front. Furthermore, Lend Lease Aid to Russia, while not being too good in terms of tanks, was fantastic in terms of high technology (radios) and Truck, for transport and supply, which the Red army was quite low on. This infusion of mobility meant that the Red Army was able to extend its reach into Eastern Europe far more easily.

Without the West, the war would likely still have been won by the Red army, but would have continued for another 3, or 4 years.
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2002, 10:59:31 PM »
Merry Christmas, or  you're all gettinga  lump of coal tonight  :(
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Offline Zeus

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2002, 11:03:13 PM »
No way russia would have won with all the extra armies going to that front if the West wasnt in. I mean, damn they should have lost in the first place if hitler wouldnt have turned military into politics.

Zhukov was smart.... but he was no Manstein, Rommel, Guderian, Patton, or Liddel-Heart
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Offline Communist

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2002, 11:03:17 PM »
So it can be said the bad guy is the media, the question has to be asked why is the media bad what drives it?

Blaming the media only parlays the anti-american complaints. The media is designed to sell things to amercians, it does this by apleaing to them in groups. The overall effect from the external point of view gives way the belief that all americans are like my buddy Zues. This leads to the general view of the american people.

Another anti-American complaint is its forgien polocy, being the worlds police man you are bound to make some poeple mad (nobody like the cops). In the end someone has to do it, personaly im gratefull that its the United States taking action. The credit I give the United States is that is presents a united front and useally leaves a way it can correct its errors.

I would like to read an american history text writen in Texas and compair it to one written in Russia, it would be interesting.  
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Offline Zeus

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2002, 11:08:51 PM »

The Media per say does not sell things, and each media station is driven by private interest groups (most of which happen to be punkasses)


If i was like "all americans" by your vision then i would suppport the world police issue, but i dont, in fact i think rightfully you should all be speaking german. Deal with your own crap well deal with ours.

Communist, if you are going to insult me , you can at least spell my name right (i mean shiiiiiiiit it was only the most major greek god). But i guess hooked on phonics worked for you then......
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Offline Communist

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2002, 11:10:33 PM »
Well then stop craping on our lawns
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Offline Archon Kojourin

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2002, 11:14:06 PM »
True, but the media can be swayed to any view.  If there are as many things in the media that present "conspiracy theories" then there are those that will present the opposite side.  Media is a be-atch, I know.  It just seems that people are favoring the anti-US one a lot.

Yeah, I suppose that the US compared to a cop is a good one.  Sometimes I hate cops but still I respect them.

I understand about how some people can develop a view to the rest of a country.  I'm not saying that Zeus portrays a bad view, he's just venting and I can't blame him.
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Offline Zithuriel

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Re:Flaming Americans.
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2002, 11:14:16 PM »
Sorry, but while I've always big Patton fan I've got to say that Rommel, the Desert Fox, was the greatest of the WW2 generals.  He humiliated the British in Africa.
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