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Author Topic: Eldar is next.  (Read 21612 times)

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Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #160 on: October 29, 2017, 11:05:27 PM »
Yep executioner dropped 1 point of strength, but is no longer a minus to hit.



Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #161 on: October 30, 2017, 07:50:41 AM »
Scorn is right - in fact, Scorpion's claw didn't have any penalties since the 6th edition codex.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2017, 12:54:50 PM »
@Rhyleth
Hampers performance? From everything I've heard, Eldar remained a top tier army throughout my hiatus (from early 5th to 8th). It sounds as though during 7th they almost approached the absurdity of 2nd Ed.
Specialisation is absolutely a huge advantage the way 40k rules have always worked, which is probably why Eldar have been so consistently strong throughout the game's history.
Disagree with both statements. But first let me emphasise one important thing: I'm looking at the game and army composition from the point of view of building so-called "all-comers" lists, because that's how you have to play in tournaments, and that's how most players I know of tend to build their collections. Tailoring a list for each specific opponent is not really an option for me or anyone I know - even if we disregard tournaments, still each time a person goes to a club for a few games, they can't really carry all of their units with them to create any list on the fly.

The way specialisation has always worked in 40k doesn't really affect this. Holding objectives has been a major part of the game since 3rd, and any successful army needs a mix of anti-infantry and anti-tank. The major advantage the Eldar have always had in this context is simply that they can concentrate more of each type for the points into dedicated units. The only downside is wasted points where this leads to overkill (10-man Dragon squads weren't of much use in older editions, for instance).


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But what's most important here for the topic in question is that at all times when Eldar were indeed performing really well, they owed their success almost exclusively to certain units/weapons that were both really strong (sometimes OP) AND absolutely not specialised, or at least about as far from being "specialised" as it ever gets. Namely:

3rd edition: Starcannons, Wraithlords, Seer Councils.
4th edition: Falcons and Harlequins.
5th edition: Seer Council (the only thing that made Eldar semi-playable on competitive level)
6th edition: Wave Serpents (due to OP rules for serpent shield), Wraithknights
7th edition: Scatter-bikes, Wraithknights

I can't speak to 6th or 7th, and I think I may have quit before the 5th Ed. Eldar Codex, but the 3rd Ed. units you name are not 'unspecialised'. They're specifically anti-Marine and were as good as they were against all comers simply because 3rd was suffused with Marine equivalent armies (in this context the Eldar themselves qualify, as an infantry-based force with low numbers and high armour saves is exactly the army profile starcannons excelled against).

The Wraithlord was mostly a starcannon platform that happened to be unreasonably tough - it was all but worthless against horde armies, but those didn't really exist. Orks weren't competitive, Tyranids favoured Tyranid Warrior-and-Carnifex-heavy builds, Guard tended to be mechanised, Tau weren't yet a thing, and no one played Dark Eldar. The Wraithlord wasn't good against tanks either, but in the unlikely event it ever got into close combat with one it could at least do damage.

Seer Council rises and falls on the quality and type of psychic power available - as a combat unit its low damage output and few attacks makes it weak against hordes unless Destructor is good (which is what made it so good in 3rd).

As for 4th, I'm not sure what world exists in which Harlequins are not a specialised unit?

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As you can see, all weapons and units in the list above have one thing in common: none of them was "specialised" because they all could handle an outstandingly wide variety of targets.

Hmm. Wraithlord can handle heavy infantry and is bad against everything else.

Harlequins are good mostly against Marine-type infantry and, while they'll massacre light infantry, so will any cc unit in the army - they're inefficiently-priced against any other target. Suggesting they aren't specialised on that basis is like suggesting Fire Dragons aren't specialised because fusion guns can melt Guardsmen. Sure they can do it, but they aren't the tool you want for that job.

Seer Council does little of anything without being able to concentrate magic flamers, which has always been a recipe for success (Exhibit A: 2nd Ed. Warp Spiders).

Scatter laser seems to have the same profile it's had since 3rd, which suggests to me it's mostly anti-horde with a sideline in light vehicles.

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For example, an army of versatile units would be 5 SM Tactical squads with krak grenades and a meltagun in each one. The same thing but in "specialised" form would be an Eldar army of 4 squads of DAs (specialised anti-personnel) and 1 squad of 5 Fire Dragons (specialised anti-tank). The number of anti-tank guns in both forces is the same. Now tell me, against which of the two forces it would be easier to take out the AT section so that your vehicles would have pretty much free reign over the battlefield? I think the answer is obvious. But that's not all. Even if the Dragons do not get singled out and decisively destroyed in the first 1-2 turns, I'd argue that the SM force would still have comparatively easier time dealing with the enemy force that includes several vehicles, for that very reason: every SM squad has some AT capability, while Dragons are just one unit and they can't be in several places simultaneously, nor can they threaten more than 1 vehicle per turn.

Which is why you wouldn't build an Eldar army that way. It's absurd to argue that specialisation - the advantage of which is being able to concentrate more of weapon type X and at a more efficient rate - is a disadvantage using an example in which the specialised army doesn't use any more of those weapons than the generalised force, and in which relative costs of those options aren't accounted for.

An Eldar force would more likely take two Dragon squads and three DA squads in this context and have points left over. Moreover it would be sure to protect the Dragons in a transport that will in most cases take the fire of multiple Marine squads to destroy (tying up their AP fire in the process and so being unable to take out surviving passengers).


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From my perspective of a long-time tournament player, the only real problem of LR has always been the fact that LRs were way too easy to destroy for their huge point cost. E.g., by the end of 5th edition, when durability stopped being an issue for some time, there were several quite successful competitive SM builds featuring 2-3 LRs.

And was the default build favoured or more specialised Raiders like the Crusader?

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Not sure what specific units you're talking about. As I detailed above, the most decisively game-making Eldar units were always the most versatile ones.

With a definition of "versatile" that corresponds to "best against Marines", sure, but that's not what I'm meaning by versatile. I'm thinking in terms of units like Guardians that duplicate the weapon distribution of other armies' core units.

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As for bases to cover, they are not too numerous, but there still are a few:
- Anti-horde
- Anti-heavy infantry
- Anti-tank
- Anti-air (although this one has largely mingled with anti-tank in 8th)
- Objective control

Any experienced tournament player would tell you that the most valuable units are invariably those that can double-up in two or more different roles.

There's no such thing outside FW as a dedicated anti-air unit so that can be written off as irrelevant for a start - any AT unit will be an AA unit by default (save in 8th, where any flamer unit is an AA unit by default, or any flier - which incidentally covers a lot of Eldar units with other roles). That really leaves three bases to cover with an entire army's worth of units - plenty to add redundancy.

Objective control is an incidental function of most Troops units - specialisation isn't what's kept 'objective control specialists' like Warp Spiders (which have utility against hordes and light vehicles, and are adequate against heavy infantry, and so by your lights are a fairly generalised unit) from seeing play.

It reads to me not that specialisation is the issue but that you simply aren't adding enough redundancy in terms of multiple units with a similar specialisation in your own builds.
 
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Imho, the problem of an army taking some crippling damage on turn 1 just because it lost the first turn to the enemy has always been there. 8th edition mechanic has greatly emphasised it though.

It's always been there to an extent, but in past editions movement was shorter, fliers weren't a thing, and high damage output armies like Eldar were short-ranged. With fliers, superheavies, turn 1 deep strike, and armies that combine high damage output and long range like Ad Mech, it's more than "exacerbated" in 8th. The game's reached a point where the turn system is no longer a sustainable way to play and the rules really should be changed so that players alternate moving individual units (something long proposed but never as necessary as it appears to be now).

I agree that the change to the game structure has hurt Eldar in numerous ways. As well as the one you mentioned, the loss of the initiative stat means that Eldar close combat options will mostly be a thing of the past, and now that mass firepower can achieve most things and AT specialists lack the damage output (as in, the literal damage stat) to reliably one-shot vehicles even in units of 5+, things like Fire Dragons and cannon-armed Wraithguard become much less attractive.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 01:03:41 PM by Rhyleth »

Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #163 on: November 16, 2017, 06:21:46 PM »
So thankfully the new FAQ went in our favor.

Autarchs can take all of their old options and still benefit from the codex datasheets.

Similarly, the missing Exarch weapons get the same treatment. Sadly the Sunrifle is rapid fire.

Offline The Mattler

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #164 on: November 16, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »
So thankfully the new FAQ went in our favor.

Autarchs can take all of their old options and still benefit from the codex datasheets.

Similarly, the missing Exarch weapons get the same treatment. Sadly the Sunrifle is rapid fire.
True, although the Ynnari got kick in the teeth.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #165 on: November 17, 2017, 02:47:31 AM »
True, although the Ynnari got kick in the teeth.

A very welcome one too. Their bonus was just way too good to exist.
I don't think the change is ideal TBH. I mean, rules-wise it seems good, but fluff-wise it would've made much more sense if Strength from Death actions could be triggered only by the death of friendly Aeldari units. 
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Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #166 on: November 17, 2017, 03:24:09 AM »

but fluff-wise it would've made much more sense if Strength from Death actions could be triggered only by the death of friendly Aeldari units.

anything that dies can be used as fuel fluff wise so far... might even be able to do something with that corpse siting on the webway gate on earth lol.




True, although the Ynnari got kick in the teeth.

its still better than battle focus....  seems to be the worst race trait so far lol.

Offline Aurics Pride

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #167 on: November 17, 2017, 05:07:19 AM »
True, although the Ynnari got kick in the teeth.

A very welcome one too. Their bonus was just way too good to exist.
I don't think the change is ideal TBH. I mean, rules-wise it seems good, but fluff-wise it would've made much more sense if Strength from Death actions could be triggered only by the death of friendly Aeldari units.

Welcome but in my opinion too far, I can understand the not repeating soulbursts and the not soulbursting in opponents turn but both added together really is a big kick in the teeth.
With what the Ynarri lose by not having craftworld traits etc I don't expect to see many Ynarri armies around anymore.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #168 on: November 17, 2017, 07:27:47 AM »
If Ynnari can still use Eldar stratagems which a lot of people suggest they can, I stills see them as being very, very strong. Just say Ynnari never came out and Strength from Death was revealed for the first time as a Craftworld trait I think people would be going crazy for it. Its NOTHING like it was, but still very strong.

I think a carefully selected detachment with units that can take advantage of each phase of the game will be extremely strong. It might not be Alaitoc level, I'd say its right on its heels... especially with access to the Eldar psychic powers. Double casting psychic powers with Warlocks is freaking awesome, double fighting with Howling Banshees is awesome, double shooting with Wraithguard is STILL awesome, potential 3x movement with Shining Spears is insane (normal move, quicken, soulburst spell). You will really need to be on your game and think about model placement but if you can master it... I think Ynnari IF they can use Eldar stratagems can compete for the strongest overall build, but might be the hardest to play.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 07:28:51 AM by Cavalier »
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #169 on: November 17, 2017, 07:57:09 AM »
If Ynnari can still use Eldar stratagems which a lot of people suggest they can

They can, as long as they still have the Asuyrian keyword. You just need a craftworlds detachment in your army to unlock the strategems. Same thing with folks using Chaos Marine psychic powers and strategems on death guard. As long as the unit has the right keywords, you're good to go.

As it is though, competitively, Ynnari is not going to be seen anymore. No reason to give up craftworld traits for Strength from Death (as it is now). Strength from Death is far to limited. Too be honest, I never really liked the ability, it was crazy strong, but this errata was too heavy handed. They should have just prevented activations in your opponents turn.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #170 on: November 17, 2017, 08:14:38 AM »
If Ynnari can still use Eldar stratagems which a lot of people suggest they can
What Killersquid said above. They can use most of them except those few that specifically affect <Craftworld> units. And in order to do this an army has to include a CWE detachment, meaning that a considerable part of the force won't be Ynnari. 


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Its NOTHING like it was, but still very strong.
It doesn't seem worthless indeed. It's still stronger than Saim-Hann or Biel-Tan attributes, lol


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I think a carefully selected detachment with units that can take advantage of each phase of the game will be extremely strong. It might not be Alaitoc level, I'd say its right on its heels... especially with access to the Eldar psychic powers. Double casting psychic powers with Warlocks is freaking awesome, double fighting with Howling Banshees is awesome, double shooting with Wraithguard is STILL awesome, potential 3x movement with Shining Spears is insane (normal move, quicken, soulburst spell). You will really need to be on your game and think about model placement but if you can master it... I think Ynnari IF they can use Eldar stratagems can compete for the strongest overall build, but might be the hardest to play.

Exactly this. Trick is that now the SfD rule promotes very flexible multi-purpose army builds. Sure, you can't have an extra volley with several squads any longer, but you can still have an extra volley plus an extra round of melee attacks plus an extra Smite, all in one turn. It's actually still strong, but it requires you to play tactically to have the right units in the right places.

As it is though, competitively, Ynnari is not going to be seen anymore. No reason to give up craftworld traits for Strength from Death (as it is now). Strength from Death is far to limited.
Well, Alaitoc maybe cheesier, but that's about it. And mark my words, now that Ynnari are toned down, Alaitoc attribute is the next closest candidate for nerf-batting.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #171 on: November 17, 2017, 08:48:51 AM »
Alatioc Isn't too bad. Chaos, Space Marines, and Admech have units with the exact same ability, and no one has been worried about it yet.

Also, it's the only craftworld trait that your opponent can completely negate (by moving to within 12"). A bunch of armies just don't care about -1 to hit. Horde Orks (Which I think is hugely underrated now that stormravens are gone from the meta), will absolutely stomp Alatioc. The new Tyranids stuff is super scary, and they don't care either.

Smite spam chaos doesn't care either.

It is however really good against armies currently doing well competitively. Rowboat Girlyman gunlines, and guard gunlines.

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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #172 on: November 17, 2017, 07:58:41 PM »
Ynnari just got killed in competitive environments, still it opened up this guy:

Autarch skyrunner 108p
-Banshee mask, 2x Avenger shuriken catapults, twin shuriken catapults, blazing star of vaul.

10 shots hitting 35/36 of them. :D
This guy should give Maugan Ra a run for it in a shooting contest.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #173 on: November 17, 2017, 08:33:06 PM »
Ynnari just got killed in competitive environments, still it opened up this guy:

Autarch skyrunner 108p
-Banshee mask, 2x Avenger shuriken catapults, twin shuriken catapults, blazing star of vaul.

10 shots hitting 35/36 of them. :D
This guy should give Maugan Ra a run for it in a shooting contest.

The Autarch doesn't have a Shuriken Pistol, or Catapult, so can't get the Blazing Star.

Even if he could, 4 S4 shots at 18", and 6 more at 12 isn't that good. Even with BS 2+. Maugan Ra won't be charged and killed immediatly after he shoots.

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #174 on: November 17, 2017, 09:01:26 PM »
Ynnari just got killed in competitive environments, still it opened up this guy:

Autarch skyrunner 108p
-Banshee mask, 2x Avenger shuriken catapults, twin shuriken catapults, blazing star of vaul.

10 shots hitting 35/36 of them. :D
This guy should give Maugan Ra a run for it in a shooting contest.

The Autarch doesn't have a Shuriken Pistol, or Catapult, so can't get the Blazing Star.

Even if he could, 4 S4 shots at 18", and 6 more at 12 isn't that good. Even with BS 2+. Maugan Ra won't be charged and killed immediatly after he shoots.

In the FAQ, they changed it so Blazing Star of Vaul applies to Twin Shuriken Catapults now, so Skyrunner characters like the Autarch Skyrunner or Warlock Skyrunner can take it.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #175 on: November 17, 2017, 09:19:10 PM »
Ynnari just got killed in competitive environments, still it opened up this guy:

Autarch skyrunner 108p
-Banshee mask, 2x Avenger shuriken catapults, twin shuriken catapults, blazing star of vaul.

10 shots hitting 35/36 of them. :D
This guy should give Maugan Ra a run for it in a shooting contest.

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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2017, 04:57:30 AM »
Autarch can stick the blazing star of vaul onto an avenger catapult, I think. Jetarchs still have peerless agility so no need or a forceshield. Weird yes, but I'm fairly sure this was the intension, as I don't beleive it was overlooked due to the footarch and the wingarch got separate FAQ entries.
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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2017, 10:15:53 AM »
Oh you're right. I totally missed that Peerless Agility wasn't the same as the Shining Spears ability.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2017, 02:56:22 PM »
I think. Jetarchs still have peerless agility so no need or a forceshield. Weird yes, but I'm fairly sure this was the intension, as I don't beleive it was overlooked due to the footarch and the wingarch got separate FAQ entries.

I think GW is trying to be 100% true to WYSIWYG. The standard GW model for bike Autarch actually doesn't have the forceshield attached to his left arm, hence the rule.

Speaking of which, does anyone understand where that "starglaive" thing come from? Is it supposed to support a case when the model of Yriel is used as a generic foot Autarch? Because, AFAIK, he's technically the only foot Autarch that they are producing now.
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