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Author Topic: Khorshid - 2000 points CWE All Comers  (Read 1245 times)

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Offline Adrastos

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Khorshid - 2000 points CWE All Comers
« on: July 18, 2017, 03:48:48 PM »
Alright so I have been fussing over this list for a while now. Looking at people's concerns and complaints about CWE/Eldar in general. I wanted an all comers, "tournament" list. But I want it to be CWE not Ynnari (though I know they're better right now).

I have tried to divide my focus between Anti-Tank and Anti-Hoard. I'd love to hear your feedback on this list.


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Outrider Detachment 2,000 point army

Total: 1999

HQ: 393
Farseer Skyrunner, Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner, Singing Spear
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Deathspinner, Mandiblasters

Troops: 83
10x Storm Guardians
 - 9x Chainswords
 - 1x Power Sword

Elites: 192
8x Fire Dragons
 - Exarch, Fusion Gun

Fast Attack: 635
9x Shining Spears
 - Exarch, Star Lance

9x Swooping Hawks
 - Exarch, Sunrifle

1x Vyper
 - Two Shuriken Cannons

Transports: 302
Wave Serpent
 - Shuriken Cannon
 - Twin Bright Lance

Wave Serpent
 - Shuriken Cannon
 - Twin Shuriken Cannon

Air Support: 394
Crimson Hunter

Hemlock Wraithfighter

The idea here is a harken back to some older methods for sure. The Warlock, Farseer and Autarch all serve to stiffen and support the Shining Spears unit but being on bikes gives them access to their abilities for any other use. So its a "death star" though its intended to be more flexible than that.

Everything is intended to move up, aggressively, together. Including my wave serpents. I want a "spear tip" here to wedge itself into the weakest or most critical part of the enemy army and annihilate it. To break the enemy army's spine if you will.

I chose the outrider detachment in part because I wanted both the Hawks and the Spears, and couldn't find anything else cheap enough to move with this army in any other category. So the Vyper was a natural choice. Its the worst part of my list but also the most fluffy, and its "ok". I chose hawks over scorpions because I needed something with a deep strike (since I cannot afford more transports) and I wanted the reliability of shooting over assaulting. They also have a ton of shots and the sunrifle has its 'blind' rule which can be handy.

The Storm Guardians were a compromise. I wanted Banshees, I couldn't afford them.

Thanks for your review.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:49:56 PM by Adrastos »
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Khorshid - 2000 points CWE All Comers
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 05:58:09 PM »
That's a cool list, I have to say I like it.

Everything is intended to move up, aggressively, together. Including my wave serpents. I want a "spear tip" here to wedge itself into the weakest or most critical part of the enemy army and annihilate it. To break the enemy army's spine if you will.
Literally held both thumbs up to that :)

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The idea here is a harken back to some older methods for sure. The Warlock, Farseer and Autarch all serve to stiffen and support the Shining Spears unit but being on bikes gives them access to their abilities for any other use. So its a "death star" though its intended to be more flexible than that.
My heart bleeds at the overpricedness of jetbike warlock, but in this case he's probably justified. Still, if you absolutely need some extra points, I'd field Farseer on foot. He doesn't need to be in combat and he gives out no "bubble" buffs. Range of 24" for psychic powers is long enough. Mine hangs out in the middle of the field on his own quite comfortably, and the "speartip" thrust into the heart of the enemy position works as a perfect screen. It took me some time to force myself out of previous editions' mentality and realise that a Farseer doesn't need to be near friendly units to be screened. Once I did realise that, I stopped putting him on a bike, and have yet to lose him even once. In 7th he died much more often  :D And you get one less deployment drop too!

Speaking of deployment drops - the only problem with this setup, as usual, is keeping Spears alive when you don't get 1st turn. What are your thoughts on that?

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The Storm Guardians were a compromise. I wanted Banshees, I couldn't afford them.
You could still take 5 Banshees for the same points. That's what I'd do.
Admittedly, for anti-horde purposes stormies with chainswords are probably better.

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So the Vyper was a natural choice. Its the worst part of my list but also the most fluffy, and its "ok".
Any chance that you could find the 10th Hawk? You could split them in 2 units of 5, covering the Detachment requirements, and drop Vyper to free up points for a properly-sized Banshee squad.


Post Merge: July 18, 2017, 06:08:45 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Oh, and 2 more things:

1. If I were to field combat Autarch, I'd go for the Banshee mask. Just 1 mortal wound on a 6, and only vs Infantry, is too unlikely. Capability to fight first in the opponent's turn might prove crucial however.
2. Is there any particular reason for lances on a Serpent?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 02:07:42 AM by SeekingOne »
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Adrastos

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Re: Khorshid - 2000 points CWE All Comers
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 09:05:05 PM »
thanks for all that feedback. So here's my tweaked list. I honestly cannot decide which is better. The loss of the Vyper eliminates some of my mobile shooting, and its "tankyness" but the banshee squad will hit so much harder than my stormies ever could.

Lances on a Serpent are one of the best ways to get them right now, and they provide what my list lacks in many places; long range AT. Even if I'm spending 1-2 turns firing at -1BS or not at all that's ok. It gives me the option; this list is about layered effectivenesses and options since its all-comers.

But the theme is jamming myself into the enemy's midst and then exploding. Like a Rough Rider's lance.

Speaking of multi-roling that is where the Warlock and Farseer on Bikes come in. Certainly I could run them on feet, but I want them to keep up. With the Singing Spears and Catapults they each put out decent shooting by themselves. And their spears serve as 'bright lances' if you will; so they add to my AT. Additionally; by being on bikes they can assault fliers.

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Outrider Detachment - 2,000 Point List

Total: 2000
HQ: 392
Farseer Skyrunner, Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner, Singing Spear
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Avenger Shuripult, Banshee Mask

Elites: 348
8x Fire Dragons
 - Exarch, Fusion Gun

9x Howling Banshees
 - Exarch, Executioner


Fast Attack: 564
9x Shining Spears
 - Exarch, Star Lance

5x Swooping Hawks
 - Exarch, Sunrifle

5x Swooping Hawks

Transports: 302
Wave Serpent
 - Shuriken Cannon
 - Twin Bright Lance

Wave Serpent
 - Shuriken Cannon
 - Twin Shuriken Cannon

Air Support: 394
Crimson Hunter

Hemlock Wraithfighter
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Khorshid - 2000 points CWE All Comers
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2017, 06:29:19 AM »
Looking at your new list, I feel like suggesting a few more tweaks - but I do understand that minor tweaks like that heavily depend on availability of the corresponding models and/or on how strict your gaming group is about WYSIWYG. So if your choices are based on available models, my suggestions obviously would not apply.

Anyway, if I were optimising a list like that in ideal world (i.e. in a world where I had unlimited supply of readily available nicely painted models  ;D), I'd be tempted to try out the following tweaks. About most of them I'm not 100% sure that they'll make things better - but it would be interesting to at least test them.

1. Scrap the Executioner - it's just bad. -1 to hit on it is ridiculous.
2. Your attitude to Singing spears sounds like old edition mentality - in shooting singing spears are AP0 and vehicles have 3+, making value of those shots rather low. That's something I'd never pay extra points for unless I had absolutely no other way to spend them. Maybe it's just me though )
3. I'd be tempted to drop a couple of Fire Dragons and upgrade the Crimson Hunter to another Hemlock. This would be a significant boost of power in my experience.
4. As for mounted vs dismounted psykers... On one hand, I fully understand and agree with your points about keeping up, flexibility etc. But on the other hand I can stop thinking of the fact that if you just dismount both psykers (still keeping them both in), you will instantly free up enough points to include 2 full extra Shining Spears (with 22 points leftover) - and that gives you two extra models that would be able to shoot and fight things, assault flyers, etc. And if you also remove their spears it will almost make +3 Shining Spears! Hell, it's pretty close to the cost of a whole extra Wave Serpent - that's how stupidly overpriced the character jetbikes are.
Now, of course there is a factor that adding extra Spears means splitting them into two squads, which makes Fortune dramatically less effective. But still, if I were you I'd be strongly tempted to trim most of the points invested into Skyrunner psykers and convert Spears into 2 squads of 6.
Alternatively, you could use those points to get back the Vyper, replace Hunter with Hemlock without reducing Dragons, or even to convert Banshees into Wraitswords.

But anyway, that's already a solid list as it is. If only I had models, I'd love to try it out myself :)

P.S.
And still, how do you keep Spears alive if you don't get first turn?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 06:31:58 AM by SeekingOne »
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Adrastos

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Re: Khorshid - 2000 points CWE All Comers
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2017, 02:11:07 PM »
@SeekingOne


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P.S.
And still, how do you keep Spears alive if you don't get first turn?


Same thing I do with anything in my Eldar army when I lose T1. Cover, good deployment and lots of HOPE.


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1. Scrap the Executioner - it's just bad. -1 to hit on it is ridiculous.


I've been looking at this and I am glad I got some feedback. The damage stat seemed nice but the to-hit is just so blegh. I'll ditch it and move the points to something else. That might be enough for a second sunrifle...hehehehe I SHALL BLIND MY ENEMIES INTO OBLIVION.

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2. Your attitude to Singing spears sounds like old edition mentality - in shooting singing spears are AP0 and vehicles have 3+, making value of those shots rather low. That's something I'd never pay extra points for unless I had absolutely no other way to spend them. Maybe it's just me though )

I know they have an armor save but I am actually thinking of it in other ways. They can now shoot their Catapults at one target and throw their spears at another (or the same) and charge another after that. So in my mind it is just adding +1 shots to the model, and the points cost is low enough for me to not worry about it. If it manages to do one wound to pretty much anything, let alone a lucky 3 to a vehicle, in a 5-6 turn game its well worth its points.

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3. I'd be tempted to drop a couple of Fire Dragons and upgrade the Crimson Hunter to another Hemlock. This would be a significant boost of power in my experience.


I'm tempted too but I don't want to lose numbers on the FDs. Generally at 8 I feel like there are high odds of being able to live for a second turn, or at minimum force the enemy to shoot the squad with 2-3 enemy units rather than just one.

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4. As for mounted vs dismounted psykers... On one hand, I fully understand and agree with your points about keeping up, flexibility etc. But on the other hand I can stop thinking of the fact that if you just dismount both psykers (still keeping them both in), you will instantly free up enough points to include 2 full extra Shining Spears

Vyper, replace Hunter with Hemlock without reducing Dragons, or even to convert Banshees into Wraitswords.


Were it only that I had Wraithswords. I intend to convert/proxy some Kurnoth Hunters as Wraithswords but that day has not come yet. And I don't have more spears. (yet).

Also I have to have that Warlock keep up if he's going to be throwing Conceal around and at that point I may as well just bring the Farseer on a bike since having him running along side my wave serpents would just be TOO silly for my tastes.

I imagine 800 year old Farseer Winthrael just sprinting along waving his staff angrily at the youngin's as they wiz by on their fancy "grav vehicles" with their fancy "speed" and "confort", while he casts psychic powers uphill both ways...and I just can't do it.

The extra wound and better toughness and the ability to be where I want them to be, charging the odd vehicle, is good enough.

I won't be able to test this list for a bit (probably about two weeks) but I'll report back on how it preforms eventually!
I do not need to kill you Mon-Keigh, you will kill yourself.

 


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