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Offline XavianBlacksoul

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Horde armies
« on: March 28, 2011, 11:26:59 AM »
Hi all
I play against most codex armies and love my Eldar army. I dont have any problems against meqs, but cant quite handle hordes. I have a vastly different list against hordes to the regualar marines etc. Just wondered how to deal with them. I have problems against guard and nids for different reasons but i think it comes down to not enought guns to kill whats in front of me. I can post my anti guard/tyranid/tau lists if you want to see. I just would like to be better at dealing with them. Any help would be great.
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Offline csjarrat

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2011, 11:33:04 AM »
units like scorpions tend be good choices, as do the shooty avenger builds. tri-flame storm guardians are nice. i tend to play against orks a lot, and find that volume of fire + flamers with doom support is the way to do it.
a unit of scorpions attacking a doomed squad will annihilate most horde unit types.
the difficulty against IG is not getting shot to pieces when you win the combat. for that you'll need stormies or combat avengers getting stuck in to the other units around them to prevent your elites being rapid fired

Offline XavianBlacksoul

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 02:23:24 PM »
Thank you for the response, im really not that fond of scorpions to be honest. I would love to like them but they never seem to get them to work effectively. I have a separate post about this issue. The real problem is anti tyranid and anti guard. Here are my lists.

Anti tyranid

Farseer, stones, warding, doom, fortune, guide 165

10 dire avengers, exarch, defend, bladestorm, tw, catapults 167
wave serpent, stones, tw/l suri cannons 110

3 scatter walkers 180

6 fire dragons 96
falcon, pl, scatter, holofields 175

10 howling banshees, exarch, executioner 182
wave serpent, tw/l suri cannons, stones 110

10 guardians, scatter laser, warlock, embolden 125

8 swooping hawks, exarch, hawks talon, skyleap 205

8 warp spiders, exarch, withdraw, powerblades 213

wraithlord, lance, eml, flamers 155

6 rangers 114

total 1997

The idea behind this list is to shoot the real fast things like gaunts and stealers with the guided walkers and hawks. Fire dragons protect against flying tyrants and deep striking trygons. Wraithlord and banshees protect the flanks from outflankers. Warp spiders just harass what is needed. Rangers take wounds off monstrous creatures. Then if needed the force is mobile so we can make a fast getaway (apart from the guardians and rangers, sorry guys)

As for guard im abit stuck, the last few lists have been smashed. Granted i killed loads of them but there is always more. He likes to play with a 50 strong unit, split up. Various differnt russ, numourous heavy teams and flying veterans etc. My last list was not that different to the one above although it was a slightly larger force with 2 wraithlords and scorpians minus spiders. Any tactics or list tweaks would be happily excepted. Many thanks.


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Offline Aireoth

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 05:31:49 PM »
Guard is hard to play against, the most success I have had is with outflank and deep strike, followed by a solid tank army pushing their front. Its always risky because of their numbers.

As for deep striking, I prefer Spiders over Hawks, the double move, and higher strength are worth it, Hawks just good for dying in fires. Plus spiders can insta-kill most guard units (HQ's and weapon teams) if you place them well and with some luck.
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Offline FarseerFaris

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2011, 08:18:59 PM »
Nid list looks ok to me I'd personally swap the banshees for scorpions, drop the dragons/falcon for more rangers and upgrade them to pathfinders(they rock at downing MC's from 3 feet away, especially when doom is involved) and I dunno about the wraithlord I might drop him too(genestealers will go first/rend him to death) and probly buy more gaurdians to hold objectives and doom/shurken any infantry nids approaching.

Yeah gaurd are rough - I've found the best tactic for them is too hide from their shooting, however since their weapons can reach the entire board this means sticking him in CC ASAP.  Use outfllanking walkers/scorpions to catch his flanks and deny him the ability to shoot them - rush your warwalkers into close combat vs. his infantry so they can't be shot - they will wittle him down and break him.  Deep striking hawks/spiders are great as this means you will catch him off gaurd and fire the first shot - if they get lit up first are probly not gonna make it, an Autarch in the spiders will help with your reserves and between him and the exarch they will be able to handle gaurd in CC with high WS, A's, and Power weps.  For your dragons/banshees transports I'd suggest star-engines as this means you can RUSH 36" forward onto him giving him only one chance to shoot you down, Vectored engines are expensive but do make good insurance in a situation like that.  I like wraithlords vs. gaurdwith cheapo swords as they take a bit of firepower to down and in CC will be invincible as they squash commanders and break units or tear tanks apart but would leave them at home if you play the 'reserve' game as all the fire in the first turns will be put onto them and kill them.  Avengers are deadly vs. gaurdsmen but vulnerable to reprisal I'd be careful with them and try and preserve them as they are a scoring unit and try to pick off isolated units w/bladestorm using their serpent as a cover save, again don't be scared of CC they can handle gaurd easily enough and they won't be able to be shot up.

Rangers leave something to be desired vs. gaurd in my experience, they're cover save is nice but offensively will do almost nothing - Pinning is a handy tool but gaurd have several ways to buff leadership so it's VERY unreliable.  10 gaurdians will be shot to death from range quickly running off their objective and leaving a KP - I'd suggest beefing up their numbers and hiding them in cover and going to ground vs. heavy fire trying to holld their point.

Seer counci in a fortuned transport is nice vs. Gaurd - they carve through vehicle/infantry alike and their transport will be rerolling its cover saves(pray he doesn't bring HYDRA's!!).  But yeah try and tie up/kill his infantry with sneaky outflanking/deepstrike/reserveN36"rush tactics and while they are busy do what you can to his tanks with your dragons/vehicles, try and put some shurikens in his rear armor or if you can't shoot or it gets really desperate a RAM on his lighter tanks will hurt him and hopefully not you(falcons holofields give them an edge during a RAM).  Yeah kill him without getting shot easier said than done heh. 
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Offline XavianBlacksoul

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 04:25:15 AM »
Well im glad to hear its not just me that finds these armies hard going. A few words in response. Against nids i think banshees do ok, the main reason is that they fight first. Banshees against the fast pointy stuff like horms and stealers. Counter assult with them before they hit your lines, and you get another turn shooting with your army. Add doom and you are looking at alot of dead bugs. I find scorpians to slow for this tactic and with the amount of rending hits not that durable.

I did consider swapping the dragons for pathfinders but decided that the flexability, speed and brute force were more important. When the enemy is at your door i still like to pick my fights.

A fair point about the wraithlord, may drop him.

As for guard, thanks there is alot to think about. I have never used a seer council but i can see how this would work. Would six in a serpent be a good number? They are rather expensive. Thanks once again.
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Offline FarseerFaris

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 08:31:51 AM »
Yeah 6 is a good number against gaurd actually thats what I use out of a falcon - 18 witchblade attacks hitting on 3's should do in both gaurd and vehicles alike, just do your best to avoid getting rapid fired after winning an assault by consolidating behind ongoing assaults that he can't shoot through or behind wrecked tanks or nearby hills and stuff.
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2011, 10:02:48 AM »
I did write a long reply to this last night and the Interweb ate it. :P
Second attempt...

Farseer, stones, warding, doom, fortune, guide 165
Drop one of the powers. Unless you go for a Seer Council (which I would strongly suggest you don't) then I would drop Fortune from this list.
Just sit at the back guiding the war walkers and dooming their target.

Quote
10 dire avengers, exarch, defend, bladestorm, tw, catapults 167
wave serpent, stones, tw/l suri cannons 110
This unit is absolutely fine, though arguably you shouldn't need defend if you use them carefully.
I would also suggest finding the points to put EML and chin shuricannons on you Serpents.
This setup is golden against horde armies, since the plasma missile is defensive, allowing you to fire both heavy weapons on the move. Also plasma is pinning, which both guard and nids are susceptible too if you can isolate swarms from their HQ / Synapse.

Quote
3 scatter walkers 180
Yup. Guide them. Shoot stuff.

Quote
6 fire dragons 96
falcon, pl, scatter, holofields 175
Fine. For versatility theis squad could take an Exarch with a flamer, but it's not essential.
I would also get SStones on the Falcon. In fact you must put SStones on that Falcon.

Quote
10 howling banshees, exarch, executioner 182
wave serpent, tw/l suri cannons, stones 110
My suggestion here is to drop the idea of an elite close combat unit entirely.
Use tripple flamer storm guardians instead. They're almost as good against guard and the flamers will make such a dent in a nid swarm that you'll hardly have to get into combat.
They're also a scoring unit, which you're a bit light on at the moment.

Quote
10 guardians, scatter laser, warlock, embolden 125
Quote
6 rangers 114
Fine. Keep them in cover as the core of your firebase. Again, the ranger's pinning weapons should be targeting either Monstrous Creatures or isolated mooks that will likely fail pinning tests.
Quote
wraithlord, lance, eml, flamers 155
And keep this guy with them to deter assaulters.

Quote
8 swooping hawks, exarch, hawks talon, skyleap 205

8 warp spiders, exarch, withdraw, powerblades 213
I like both of the these units.
I'd recommend the Sun Rifle on the Hawk Exarch to push out lots of pinning tests. They're not reliable, but if you force enough of them then you opponent will fail some.



Against Bugs you hold back and shoot, then move in with your short range units to mop up anything that gets close.
Against Guard you need to be more proactive since you won't win a long ranged fire fight against them. Advance the assault elements under covering fire and once you're in amongst the troops you should outmatch him.

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 10:03:11 PM »
XavianBlacksoul:

Unless you're talking about one-shot games where you know exactly what army you're going to play against, tooling your army to face a particular codex isn't really the way to go.  That said, if you KNOW you're going to face Nids or IG, and those are the ones giving you trouble, here's some food for thought:

Farseer:  You spend too much on him.  Three powers, only two of which he can use in a turn.  Run him with Fortune only and stick him with Striking Scorpions, or else give him Guide and put him with your War Walkers.  I know you're not a fan of Scorpions, but if you are going to tailor your list you may as well go all the way, and Scorps will serve you better than Banshees.

Dire Avengers:  As configured, they are dead against anything that survives being shot.  Therefore, since they are virtually throw away anyhow, why not use Storm Guardians with Flamers instead?  A triple Flamer (including Warlock w/ Destructor) squad will save you 30+ points per squad, and during the ensuing assault you get an additional attack per man.

Hopefully you find these ideas useful.  Good luck!

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« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 07:44:21 PM by Chaplain Swordwind »
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Offline skoops6

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 07:23:55 PM »
as others have said, useful things to use against hourdes: scatter walkers, nightspinners, scorpions, hawks and tri-template storm guardians. also consider rangers, warlocks and prisms to take out MCs if playing tyranids
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Offline Eldo

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 09:16:32 PM »
In regards to the wraithlord (if you don't plan to drop him), perhaps a different weapon layout?

I have mine based on the idea that it was in life, a DA exarch, so he has a shuricannon in one hand, and a SL in the other. At his BS, the majority of that storm of shots will hit. In games agaisnt tyranids, this could be a way to wipe the floor with medium sized bugs before they really reach your lines.

Also, the intimidation factor of "he is firing how many times?", will force many an opponent to focus more attention on him, keeping the squishier bits of your army alive longer.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Horde armies
« Reply #11 on: April 1, 2011, 01:40:02 AM »
Scorpions would have helped this list a lot (just swapping the spiders for 10 of them), but if you have so much hate for them then I would suggest using harlequins instead.

Farseer: Drop fortune, it's not that important, expensive and not all that helpful.

Avengers: Drop defend, they are too expensive for what they are worth with it, and if you play them well, or the opponent does not have a pure hatred for them they'll most likely not be in CC.

Falcon: Upgrade scatter to EML and you can fire on the move or an additional S8 shot, I really hope you are not planning to guide this one.

Hawks: The sunrifle is superior to the hawks talon vs the armies you have trouble with, I would also add intercept as it is dirt cheap in a large unit.

Wraithlord & guardians: I would consider using a serpent with tri-flamer stormies instead, it will make one scoring unit mobile, and if you wish you can strap lances onto it. (personally I hate lances)
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