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Author Topic: question about aspect host formation  (Read 3783 times)

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Offline alexj89

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question about aspect host formation
« on: July 2, 2015, 05:19:45 PM »
Hi,in this days i had a discussion about aspect host,specifically :
can the units from the aspect host formation take transport, like the wave serpent ? and does it count to have the bonus as the formation have ? ( +1 ws/bs)?

thank you all for giving me some help, i tried to contact gw via mail... but well... :P

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #1 on: July 2, 2015, 07:49:18 PM »
That's a litigious question. From the book there is no limitation regarding wave serpent. So you should be able tl have one. The question regarding the serpent increased bs is one we already asked ourselves around here without being able to answer it. Personnally i tend to think "no they don't" because the pilot are guardian or at least regular eldaf not aspect warrior. So i tend to think theh are nkt affected by the bonus but it's clear that the rules aren't really precise on that point. Perhaps the fact that tank have no cs stat,therefore cannot benefits from that bonus, tend to orient me further in this direction.
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Offline alexj89

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #2 on: July 3, 2015, 05:38:37 AM »
yeah, the problem is related to the restriction " every unit must have an exarch..." that the point of who say that they cannot take DT

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #3 on: July 3, 2015, 05:42:19 AM »
Well technicly a wave serpent is an upgrade to a unit so i don't think that argument is valid but if you follow that train of thought they get the bonus aswell as the guy inside. This rules really lack transparency.
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Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #4 on: July 3, 2015, 09:45:40 AM »
"Dedicated Transports: ... For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops..."


"Rites of Battle: ... All units in this formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic"

Dedicated transports, i.e. waveserpents, definitely count as being in the same detachment as the aspect host. However it's up for debate as to whether they count as part of the formation as well.

Some argue that you can't be part of the detachment and not be part of the formation

Others argue that only units with their unit entries listed in the box benefit from bonuses.

It's at a stalemate until either of the arguments can be proven wrong.

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #5 on: July 3, 2015, 11:01:00 AM »
It's at a stalemate until either of the arguments can be proven wrong.

Wich is not likely to be happening any time soon.
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Offline DCannon ForLife

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #6 on: July 3, 2015, 02:31:30 PM »
If it helps at all: The AdeptiCon/ITC FaQ has ruled that the Wave Serpents (taken as dedicated transports) do benefit from the formation bonus.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #7 on: July 3, 2015, 02:53:21 PM »
That doesn't really help as it is only a set of rules that are being used for specific tournaments.  It is no more official than you or I saying the rules is something.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline DCannon ForLife

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #8 on: July 4, 2015, 08:17:04 PM »
If you're looking for a way to (amicably) settle an argument, of course it helps. You simply agree to abide by it. If you're looking to definitively answer an RaI/RaW application question ("I must know"), then you'll have to get used to disappointment.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #9 on: July 5, 2015, 12:11:38 AM »
When it comes to discussions being held on our rules forum, as per our rules, these discussions are supposed to be about the RAW.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #10 on: July 5, 2015, 01:16:03 AM »
Dedicated transports, i.e. waveserpents, definitely count as being in the same detachment as the aspect host. However it's up for debate as to whether they count as part of the formation as well.

As an honest question, can you quote the source of those rules? I'm not familiar with them. To the best of my knowledge, dedicated transports don't take up a FOC slot, but gain the Battlefield role of the unit they're chosen with. I'm not aware of any rules stating that they necessarily become part of the detachment / formation, though.

It does make me wonder how a person could build a battleforged list that included dedicated transports, unless that was accurate.

On the basis that a unit taking a Dedicated Transport does NOT make the dedicated transport part of the unit, I'd have to say that the transports should not gain benefit from the bonuses. Since the rules tend to be restrictive [only rules that fit in the box] instead of inclusive [so long as part of the rules fit in the box] and the rules specify that certain units [that don't include Wave Serpents] are part of the formation, the transports shouldn't benefit.

Unfortunately, that leads me to the question of, "If I take this formation, and purchase WS transports for the units, and the WS aren't part of this formation, does that mean my list is Unbound?" By RAW, I think the answer would be yes, it is unbound, so no benefits for anyone. :P

Unless you take another detachment, that you could include empty Wave Serpents. Maybe a CAD to farm the FA slots for WS.

Also, since Wave Serpents can't include Exarchs, and that's a requirement of being in the formation, that would also seem to exclude Serps from being part of it.


Rather than asking if Serps can gain benefit from the formation, it would be more piercing question would be whether they can be part of this formation at all. I'm pretty sure the answer is no.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2015, 01:20:41 AM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #11 on: July 5, 2015, 08:44:33 AM »
Unfortunately, I don't see where it states you can't include the option for an exarch and the option to add a wave serpent as a dedicated transport. Both are unit options that are not exclusive of each other in the codex.

To throw fuel on the fire, I would just point out something in the BRB. On page 121 there is an entry about army list entries that do not use force organization slots. The bottom of the paragraph very clearly states about that they gain any of the command benefits from that particular detachment and that they are part of the detachment for all rules purposes. On page 120 and 72 it very clearly states that dedicated transports do not use a force organization slot, and hence fall into the above category. Since a formation is a special type of detachment that gives special rules to units in said detachment and dedicated transports are units that are part of that detachment for a rules purposes, RAW state that they gain the special rules.

Do I think they should gain the special rule or do I think that GW intended to give them the special rule? No. So for rules as intended I would say no. Rules as written, yes.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2015, 09:26:41 AM by dog_of_war »

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #12 on: July 5, 2015, 02:44:32 PM »
Well then when does games workshop intend to double think their rule before publishing them --'
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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: question about aspect host formation
« Reply #13 on: July 6, 2015, 08:49:13 AM »
With the volume and speed new rulebooks are coming out, I'm not surprised tthat some glitches were overlooked. What's really upsetting is how lng they took to come out with sixth edition and new codecies only to redo everything two years later because of how much they miffed up. But that's an old topic that shouldn't be rehashed again. Just use the golden rule if a discrepancy in a rule comes up, let the roll of a die decide which rule applies.

 


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