Topic: A Few Questions About Dark Eldar/Wych Cults

[-Makenshi-]

well right now im researching wether to get harlies, DE or CWE so i have a few questions concerning DE wych cults mainly

(im not 100% sure if this should be in this or the DE tactics forum so sorry if its in the wrong place)

1. are wych cults too limiting?

2. are scremaing jets and slave snares at all useful as i had these on all of the raiders of the list i made, in an attmept to theme it

3. does a mechanised (as in almost everything in raiders) list work or is it easily destroyed?

4. is lelith a good character? id probably use her once i get to 1.5k as she seems fairly cheap and gd, however thats only on paper

5. would an all deepstiking army work or would it be easily destroyed?

6. are hellions and reaver jetbikes any good in wych cults?

thank you to all that reply ^_^

[syth773]

1. it depends on your style.  i know one guy who always plays wych cult and never gets bored of them.  i use to play them in 3rd ed but now i have gone to regular DE, although i still use wyches.  i would say they are riskier now as the only way to use wyches is with raiders and raiders are dangerous nowadays (to the people inside them).

2. screaming jets are fun, i don't use them much but dropping a ravager behind your enemy's lines is always fun.  i made one army made entierly of deepstriking raiders and ravagers and won 1 out of 3 games with it.  there are certain situations in which it can be useful.  it is rather risky if your opponent has good firepower and i don't use them as a winning strategy, mostly just in fun games where i don't care if i win or lose.  slave snares i don't use much but i can see how they could possibly be useful.  the thing is making sure your vehicles survive to use them.

3. a raider list was very good in 3rd ed but now it is more dangerous because of the results of crashing.  now i am going more along with a footslogging army with a few raiders as support.  again it depends on the army you are going against.  against tyranids i still go all raiders and ravagers.

4. lelith is probably the best special character there is because she has the shadowfield and can therefore actually survive in close combat.  her cost is pretty good, the only real downside to taking her is that she does not have combat drugs which are extreamly useful.  if you are going to take a special character then lelith is the best but many people prefer to take an archite with drugs.

5. refer to my #2 statement.

6. i don't use hellions, it is not that they are really bad, it is just that there is so much more stuff i rather spend points on.  reaver jetbikes are still very good.  i use them almost exclusively as tank hunters but when fighting against imperial guard, tau or other armies that are weak in close combat i might field a squad of bikes as shock troops to hit the enemy early on.

[-Makenshi-]

1. i meant is it too limiting making it almost impossible to use effectively etc.

2. so an all screaming jet list as default wouldn't be a smart idea? what ways are there of ensuring (relative) raider surviveability?

3. my main opponents would be biel tan, nids and khorne (not pure)

4. i'd run her with a group of wyches, would thbis compensate for the lack of combat drugs? or should is she best left on her own? or is an archite more reliabele?

6. would wargear on jetbikes be a waste of points? e.g. agoniser, also are they not very good infantry hunters then?

thanks for your reply ^_^

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

The other way to use Wyches is to have a squad of 20 jump out of a Webway Portal and right into assault, something that I am dying to do (I need to find suitable models in sufficient numbers). 

[syth773]

1. i meant is it too limiting making it almost impossible to use effectively etc.

2. so an all screaming jet list as default wouldn't be a smart idea? what ways are there of ensuring (relative) raider surviveability?

3. my main opponents would be biel tan, nids and khorne (not pure)

4. i'd run her with a group of wyches, would thbis compensate for the lack of combat drugs? or should is she best left on her own? or is an archite more reliabele?

6. would wargear on jetbikes be a waste of points? e.g. agoniser, also are they not very good infantry hunters then?

thanks for your reply ^_^

1. certainly not impossible to use effectively, just slightly more difficult to use in this edition.  in order to use wytches you need raiders (or else they get shot into tiny pieces) and raiders have become even riskier to use because of the penalties of crashing.  however, on a table with good cover you should be able to get to the enemy in decent condition.  you go against biel tan, nids and khorne, fortunately they are not really heavy on firepower (with possible exception of biel tan, depending on what the guy likes to field) so wytch cult wouldn't be bad.

2. you need cover to protect your raiders from shooting.  deepstriking vehicles is risky because you could end up right in front of a squad with a bunch of anti vehicle weapons.  against the 3 armies you mostly face i don't think deepstriking is really neccessary.

3. against khorne and tyranids the raider lists are fine, in fact a raider list is perfect against tyranids as it makes all the ground troops that don't have any shooting practically useless and there only a few threatening creatures, ones that you can dispose of with your vehicles.  khorne is strong in close combat so a mobile list would also be wise.  ravagers are good against khrone.  i can't really say about biel tan since there are so many ways to make a biel tan army.

4. if you do field lileth at least keep her near a squad so she cant be caught in the open by fire or overwealmed in close combat.  running a model without combat drugs is not a handicap, they work fine, it is just that many players consider combat drugs to be a very valuable asset.  an archite is not neccessarily more reliable, it is just that you can pick and choose what you want to take on her.
one thing i forgot to mention about lileth is that she costs 26 points less than a normal archite with the same equipment, she also has 1 more WS than a normal archite.  if you need an inexpensive but kick ass HQ then take lileth.  if you want more equipment such as combat drugs or a reaver jet bike then an archite (while more expensive) is more customable.  also remember that lileth can only be taken in wytch armies of 1500 points or more.

6. jetbikes are not bad at killing infantry, the have combat drugs and their stats are pretty good, it is just that they work better as tank hunters since they are fast and can take 2 blasters in a squad of 3.  if you use them to kill infantry i would only sugest using them against important infantry squads, for example the chaos havoc squad or a unit of eldar dark reapers.  jetbikes are fast so they should be able to reach these guys by staying behind cover and turbo boosting.  don't waste them on regular infantry troops as regular warrior squads or wytch squads can handel them.  the only thing i would give a group of jetbikes would be an agonisor and that is only if you are going to hunt infantry (like the ones i mentioned).

[Lomendil]

Unless you have really large terrain pieces, cover will not protect Raiders apart from on the first turn. Most cover will only give Obscured Target to the Raiders, and this is of little use after the first turn as the Raiders will be moving fast.

For a Wych Cult I would say that using WWPs is the most effective way to fight with them. You can't do an effective Raider Rush because you can't get access to lots of Raider Squads, if you hurl 5 Raiders of Wyches at the enemy then there is a good chance that 3 will be shot down before they can deliver their passengers (and having all of them shot down is not unlikely enough to discount as a definate risk).

As a 2000pt list, I'd try something like:

(Starting on the board)

Wych Archite - Agonizer, Splinter Pistol, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, Xenospasm, Haywire Grenades, Plasma Grenades, Gruesome Talisman

Warrior Squad (17) - 2x Splinter Cannon, 2x Blaster, Sybarite with Webway Portal

Warrior Squad (17) - 2x Splinter Cannon, 2x Blaster, Sybarite with Webway Portal

Warrior Squad (10) - 2x Dark Lance

Warp Beasts (5 + Beastmaster)

Warp Beasts (5 + Beastmaster)

Warp Beasts (5 + Beastmaster)

Starting in the Webway

Wych Squad (10) - 2x Blaster, Wych Weapons, Succubus with Agonizer, Raider with Horrorfex and Trophy Racks

Wych Squad (10) - 2x Blaster, Wych Weapons, Succubus with Agonizer, Raider with Horrorfex and Trophy Racks

Wych Squad (10) - 2x Blaster, Wych Weapons, Succubus with Agonizer, Raider with Horrorfex

Wych Squad (10) - 2x Blaster, Wych Weapons, Succubus with Agonizer, Raider with Horrorfex

Ravager - 3x Disintegrator


Uses the usual tactic - the Warriors FOF forwards in the first turn, protected by the 'escorts' (in this case, the Warp Beasts and the Archite). Portals are opened next turn, on turn 3 Wyches emerge to wreak havoc.

Lots of Warp Beasts here. Warp Beasts are cheap and useful, they are basically 'throw-away' units that are designed (in this list, at any rate) purely to draw fire and do some damage where possible - if they get destroyed, they are so cheap that it doesn't really matter. Their speed and large charge range makes them good for keeping Infiltrators and fast enemy squads away from the Warriors (same goes for the foot Archite, she/he can likewise FOF and get 12" charge with Combat Drugs. 2nd turn assaults against the main body of the enemy army are entirely possible too.).

Also, the Horrorfexes and Trophy Racks are worthless against Fearless armies, so ditch 'em for something more useful if up against their likes. You could go for Slave Snares in their stead, or just use the points to buy some more Warriors or kit for the Archite, etc.

[-Makenshi-]

after revising my initial list heres what ive coem up with

1k

(On The Field)

=HQ=
1 Archite
Agoniser
Splinter Pistol
Mask Of The Damned
Combat Drugs
=131pts

=E=
(x2) 7 Warriors
2 Splinter Cannons
2 Blasters
1 Sybarite w/ Web Way Portal
=288pts (144/squad)

(Web Way Reserves)

=T=
(x2) 8 Wyches
Wych Weapons
2 Blasters
Succubus w/ Agoniser
Raider w/ Disintergrator, Slave Snares, Trohpy Racks and Horrorfex
=464pts (232/squad)

=HS=
1 Raider
3 Disintergrators

2k

(On The Field)

=HQ=
1 Archite
Agoniser
Splinter Pistol
Mask Of The Damned
Combat Drugs
Plasma Grenades
=133pts

1 Drachite
Agoniser
Splinter Pistol
Hell Mask
Combat Drugs
Animus Vitae
Gruesome Talismen
Plasma Grenades
=115pts

=E=
(x2) 7 Warriors
2 Splinter Cannons
2 Blasters
Sybarite w/ Web Way Portal
=288pts (144)

6 Warriors
2 Dark Lances
=68pts

(x4) 5 Warp Beasts/ 1 Beastmaster
=300pts (75/squad)

(Web Way Reserves)

=T=
(x2) 7 Wyches
Wych Weapons
2 Blasters
Succubus w/ Agonsier and Hell Mask
Raider w/ Slave Snares, Trophy Racks and Horrofex
=438pts (219/squad)

(x2) 7 Wyches
Wych Weapons
2 Blasters
Succubus w/ Agonuser and Hell Mask
Raider w/ Disinitergrator and Slave Snares
=418pts (209/squad)

=HS=
(x2) Ravager
3 Disintergrators
=240pts (120/Vehicle)

would these do well?

thanks to all that reply ^_^

[Lomendil]

Both lists are illegal, Warriors have a minimum unit size of 10. You want large Warrior squads in any case - a unit of 7 Warriors won't last long against anit-infantry squads like Devastators with Heavy Bolters, fast moving bikes, ordinance, etc. If they get broken before you can open a portal, you've lost the game.

Don't bother with Hell Masks on Succubi - they can't be targetted seperately so they are of little use. The chances of a Succubus being left all alone in an assault are slim, the squad would have broken and fled long before that in all likelyhood.

Mask of the Damned is something of a waste on an assault-based model, and it's a poor item in any case - the only opponents that you wouldn't want to charge you are ones who will almost always have either high Ld or be Fearless. Get points for a Shadow Field instead.

I think having Slave Snares, Horrorfexes and Trophy Racks all at the same time is going a bit overboard. I'd drop the Snares for more infantry. I'd also always take Dark Lances on the Raiders, you have plenty of troop killing power in your infantry, what you need is extra tank-killing power.

[-Makenshi-]

*checks codex*

oops, i always get confused with the two different T squads

thanks, ill revise my list again and keep in mind what you said

oh, also any suggestions on how to coem up with names or where i can find an archive of them or something?

thanks again ^_^

EDIT- ive revised the 1k list, ill redo the 2k list when i sort out the 1k list

1k

(On The Field)

=HQ=
1 Archite
Agoniser
Splinter Pistol
Shadow Field
Plasma Grenades
Gruesome Talismen
=120pts

=E=
(x2) 10 Warriors
2 Splinter Cannons
2 Blasters
1 Sybarite w/ Web Way Portal
=320pts (160/squad)

(x2) 5 Warp Beats/ Beast Master
=150pts (75/squad)

(Web Way Reserves)

=T=
(x2) 7 Wyches
Wych Weapons
2 Blasters
Succubus w/ Agoniser
Raider w/Slave Snares and Horrorfex
=408pts (204/squad)

=998pts

hows that?

[Lomendil]

For names for characters, just take an 'Elven' sounding name and make it more harsh and guttural. Plenty of good examples in the Codex. Personally I think it's best to avoid using human names, but some people like to, esp. historical figures. I saw someone using Japanese for all the names of his DE characters once. Not what I'd do, but if that floats your boat then go for it.

For squad names, I think there are two ways to go: brutal, or brutal and elegant. Eg, the Destroyers, or the Jade Destroyers.

For Cult names, there are some examples in the Codex - Cult of Strife, Cult of Domination, etc. Don't feel restricted by their blunt simplicity though - you could equally have something more 'poetic' like the Cult of the Raging Hydra, or some such. 

[-Makenshi-]

hmmm, i think i might incorparate some names from anime, although that'll only be as a last resort

squads names i usually dont use but i might

and ive got a wych cult name already ^_^

thanks again for your help

EDIT- oh, and ive redone the 1k list in the above post

[Lomendil]

hmmm, i think i might incorparate some names from anime

Resist, it's corny! Or at least 'Dark Eldarize' the name a little, don't just use it unaltered.

[-Makenshi-]

hmmm, i think i might incorparate some names from anime

Resist, it's corny! Or at least 'Dark Eldarize' the name a little, don't just use it unaltered.

dont worry, it'll be a last resort and ill alter them, im just not gd with DE/CWE names

EDIT- i think i'll post the 1k list on the tactics board, thansk for all your help Lomendil

[syth773]

hmmm, i think i might incorparate some names from anime

Resist, it's corny! Or at least 'Dark Eldarize' the name a little, don't just use it unaltered.

like the name Kruellagh the Vile isn't corny?  if GW can get a name for one of its special characters from a disney cartoon i don't think it will be a problem if someone customizes a name from a japanese cartoon

[Lomendil]

hmmm, i think i might incorparate some names from anime

Resist, it's corny! Or at least 'Dark Eldarize' the name a little, don't just use it unaltered.

like the name Kruellagh the Vile isn't corny?  if GW can get a name for one of its special characters from a disney cartoon i don't think it will be a problem if someone customizes a name from a japanese cartoon

Thanks - you just proved my point. Kruellagh the Vile is a bad name, not only corny but unfunny too. It is just about made acceptable by being Dark Eldarized from 'Cruella' into 'Kruellagh'. 

[-Makenshi-]

well leliths name is pretty good and shes based on lilith, adams (supposedly) first wife who basically started the womens right movement ^_^

[Lomendil]

True - but that's from an ancient historical source, not a Disney cartoon. Plus, Lelith's name is a subtle allusion, it's not a blatant 'joke' like Kruellagh's. Lelith's is cool, Kruellagh's is silly.