Topic: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances

[Lomendil]

And as for there being no phase out... THEIR NOT NECRONS lol  But in all seriousness theres a reason land raiders cost so many points, and even with 3 on the board a BALANCED dark eldar army should be able to take them down

How?
[/quote]

Wyches with Haywire grenades. They did get a mention earlier in the thread. The most extreme was to take 60 Wyches with Haywires, but that is hardly efficient IMHO. I think just adding Haywire grenades to my usual 3 Wych Squads will be plenty enough. The odds of not destroying them first time are balanced out by the BT Templar having so few points to spend on Marines with over 800 tied up in three tanks.

De really don't stand a chance against the tanks...but the eldar do...Fire prism, D-cannon and fire dragons within 6".

With regards to most tanks, we stand an average chance. Not great, but it's not terrible. The BT LRC is just some hairbrained idea, that begs for a revamped DE codex SOON.

 

Would be nice for something S9 or S10, or even S8 AP1, to help deal with things like Monoliths and this new tank. I thought of suggesting Dark Lances and Blasters be made AP1 as that greatly improves the odds of scoring a kill on AV14, but then it would make them overpowered against everything with lighter armour.

[Invidious]

I have to say that this kinda does suck for DE.  Wyches with haywires I doubt will be effective.  We all know raiders are easy to gun down, all a BT player has to do is use a little cleverness to gun down the wyches before they get to his Crusaders or simply keep the Crusaders away from the main battle lines.  Plus, outfitting 30 wyches with haywires is over 100 points, which you could spend on other things...

My problem is this:  Imagine you're facing BT with 3 Crusaders in a Cleanse.  This is what happens.

Deployment:  You (as DE) deploy in Table Quarter #1, The BT player Deploys in Table Quarter #3.

Turn1.  BT player moves Crusader #1 into Table Quarter #2.  He moves Crusader #2 into Table Quarter #4.  He keeps Crusader #3 in his own table quarter.

You're beslubbered.  The best you can hope for is a draw if you don't kill those Crusaders.  And after 6 turns of rushing hurricane bolter and assault cannon fire you'll be lucky to get that.   You're going to HAVE to deal with the Crusaders.  And there's just no way to do it.  Even if you have enoguh wyches to send 10 with haywires at each one, the chances of even getting to them, much less blowing them all, are almost nothing.

[-bill-]

It depends

if he bought the Crusaders as transports for a squad then they don't count for claiming table quarters.

If its bought as a heavy support then it can claim. I'll have another look at the codex though to see if they're 0-1 as a heavy support choice for templars as they are for other SM armies.

IMO I'm looking forward to the challenge, it's always been embarassing when marine players daren't play their vehicles against DE because we blow them up so easily.

[BrathaLir]

Eldar are not in a much better boat than DE, w/r/t this new "development".  While--in theory--Eldar have many more A/T choices than DE, many of these (Fire Prism, WG, DCannons) are problematic from both a rules and efficiency standpoint and not often used.  The aforementioned units are almost never used in tourneys, for example.  This is just another example of anti-xeno stuff that is getting pretty tiresome.  It would be one thing if the wargear was written to provide an advantage against, say, all STR 8 weapons: irksome, but "fair".  It is quite another to limit it to lances, which, as far as I know are only used by Xenos--specificaly Eldar and DE.  At least haywire is stil a viable option in both armies.     

[Lomendil]

Plus, outfitting 30 wyches with haywires is over 100 points, which you could spend on other things...

About the price of a now-defunct Sniper Squad, seems a fair swap to me. Or I'd just drop a Talos, I could afford to do this from a tactical point of view because a BT army with 3 LRCs is going to have less actual Marines to kill, thus I can take more anti-tank and less anti-troop.

You're beslubbered.  The best you can hope for is a draw if you don't kill those Crusaders.  And after 6 turns of rushing hurricane bolter and assault cannon fire you'll be lucky to get that.   You're going to HAVE to deal with the Crusaders.  And there's just no way to do it.  Even if you have enoguh wyches to send 10 with haywires at each one, the chances of even getting to them, much less blowing them all, are almost nothing.

I don't think that's true. In a cleanse mission it's easy to get WWPs really close to the enemy lines due to both deployment and the aggressive nature of the mission, and so I can't see how the opponent could put a LRC in 3 different table quarters and have them all out of assault range of Raider Wyches coming out of the Webway. At the very least I think you could get two of them if you put a portal in the same quarter as them, and that's not too hard to achieve.

[Arcas]

Still, as long as the LR keeps moving more than 6" even ten haywires will only score 1.11 glances and 0.278 penetrating hits in average.

Another problem is that one basically is gearing towards fighting BT then, and that in a tournament environment these points will be wasted in many cases, while BT very well can afford to pay 20 or so points to equip two LRCs that way for the case that they face eldar and dark eldar.

[WeezeRRezeeW]

Face it. The real problem here is not whether we have an actual chance of destroying the LRC. The problem is that our chance of doing so is WAY smaller than any other army. It doesnt make me any less pissed about this rule that you tell me that I should equip all my wyches with haywire grenades. Quite the contrary. All other armies would have lascannons and D-cannons and railguns etc etc wether or not they face BT. But we will have to change our intire armylist to even have a remote chance of dealing with a huge LOS-blocking, hurricane-bolter-shooting, tablequarter-claiming, allows-troops-to-assault-out-of-it, behemoth. That is the real problem here people. So face it. This rule suck hard.

[Zucrous Shadowhelm]

Wow, its kinda sad seeing the DE forum getting down over a single piece of wargear, comon, we are the most underappreciated, unrespected, unnoticed army in 40k, we have been down and out b4. I  have seen u guys take a look at the Tau, new space marines, necrons etc, smirk and go, "ahhh its ok" but one little peice of wargear that only one tank can take in that army is making you run like little school girls. Remember that we have to be more inginuetive than any other army because we dont get enough attention.

ok about sitting a landraider crusader in his table 1/4 and just pegging u with his massive range of 24, and 36" guns is a waste of around 275 points. Even if it is invulnerable. The landraider crusader is first and foremost an assault vehicle. Its gonna be comming. one wych squad in a raider with haywire grenades will be enough to stop the suker dead in its tracks. A talos would be hard pressed to take one down but it might be able to.

[franky]

I think that people are worrying a little too much.. yea okay it sucks but it will be kind of exciting to try to adapt, plus just imagine when they walk in all confident with their Land Raiders and we still beat them. 

I think something to remember too is BT are becoming a mostly close combat army, DE can handle that because we have some awesome choices that excell in close combat such as wyches.

[Dranshmont]

But think about this...if the BT guy takes suffer not the alien then the wyches do stand a little chance but not a huge one.

[Arcas]

Time to play the goblet of spite vs vehicles card...

[EightyEight]

I was just about to say that.
Now if you have 20 Wyches with Haywire assaulting a tank, and the Succubus has the GoS, that's around 2 Penetrating hits and 8 glancing. That'll almost always destroy the vehicle.
Who's yer daddy now, eh?

[Ollieb]

I need to relook the Goblet of Spite rule.  For some reason, I didn't think it applied to assaulting vehicles with HGs.

About the earlier post on 3 LRCs claiming quarters.  When he makes his move, use your speed and run all your Raiders to one quarter and fire everything at a single target to increase your chances of a kill.  At 270 some odd points a pop, a BT army won't have that many troops on the table to support those points sinks. 

I'm thinking that this rule will make beating them easier as it will incline someone with BTs to field more LRCs.

[Dranshmont]

I didn't understand what the goblet does.

[Ollieb]

Any unit in BtB with a character that has one automatically hits on a 3.  The downside is this also applies to the enemy as well.  That is the reason I have never given them to my Wych Squads.  What good is the WS effect if you have wargear that negates it? 

Looking back it would be pretty sneaky to give a GOS and HGs to an IC on a bike let him run around and pop armor.  Bad part is, once he misses it's game over for that guy. 

[Zucrous Shadowhelm]

I was just about to say that.
Now if you have 20 Wyches with Haywire assaulting a tank, and the Succubus has the GoS, that's around 2 Penetrating hits and 8 glancing. That'll almost always destroy the vehicle.
Who's yer daddy now, eh?

great part about that is with 20 wyches u are more than enough to block all the exits of the vehicle one penetrating hit and bam no more troops even if u dont kill the vehicle.

[Ollieb]

True the GOS would work against a tank, but it will hurt you against anything else in HtH (except thiose with special rules).  You've just given your opponent an easier chance of hitting you and anyone STR 4 or greater will need a minimum of 3 to wound.  Not even a 4+ INV save will last long against that.

Just something to think about before you start making the GOS standard wargear.

[Zucrous Shadowhelm]

Wait how hard is it to hit a nonskimmer vehicle without WS?

[EightyEight]

I was just about to say that.
Now if you have 20 Wyches with Haywire assaulting a tank, and the Succubus has the GoS, that's around 2 Penetrating hits and 8 glancing. That'll almost always destroy the vehicle.
Who's yer daddy now, eh?

great part about that is with 20 wyches u are more than enough to block all the exits of the vehicle one penetrating hit and bam no more troops even if u dont kill the vehicle.

But the problem to go with that is if you get a 5 or 6 penetrating, quite a few Wyches are gonna die...

[Arcas]

While i would agree that the GoS perhaps was not supposed to be used against vehicles (albeit the rules allow it), if a BT player exploits his new underpriced upgrade for a beardy list the DE player is free to use it in case of doubt.

Wait how hard is it to hit a nonskimmer vehicle without WS?

It can be just as hard as hitting a skimmer...depending on how far it moved. And hurricane bolters can always be fired, regardless of movement distance, if i recall correctly.