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Author Topic: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]  (Read 5326 times)

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Offline DUDEMAESTRO

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2006, 12:49:04 AM »
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We have discussed this. The death of Zarqauwi will change nothing. The attacks still continue in Iraq... Hell, they have even replaced him already.

So, in your mind, this replacement has proved himself as formidable foe in only a couple weeks? Killing A-Z was a step in the right direction, not one of you can put realistic a slant on this fact.It also shows that we are getting the right guys.

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True... but they are still blowing up american troops with great persistence. It is easier to fight the troops on their turf then get caught trying to blow up something here. Sure, it may not send the same message, but killing troops in Bahgdad still sends a message.
American troops killing truck loads (100's to their 1) of insurgents does not send a message? Maybe we should crawl away with tails tucked like Spain after Madrid? No I think we will stay the course seeing as how we are winning.

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Do more research. All of the chemicals that were found were pre-91'. All of these weapons were also included in all reports from the Weapons Inspectors sent by the UN. For all intents and purposes, we already knew about these weapons.


So, then, Bush did not lie about the reasons for going to Iraq? These weapons were not possessed illegally by Saddam? Why did the UN not step in and demand there removal? Oh wait, I forget the Oil for food cash cow.

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I can explain that. Americans are lazy. Too many have lost faith in our government to work.

Well... yeah that’s true and it sucks.

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I haven't even seen this on FOXnews... so I can't put a lot of faith in this statement. Aside from conjecture, this is meaningless.

Here is some from the “unbiased News” MSNBC.

http://www.deletehillary.com/saddamsWMD.swf
      
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I didn't know Bill O'Reilly was a part of this board. Tell me, is the liberal media responcible for the IEDs as well?
I dunno how to respond to this.... Thanks?

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Well there's a self-righteous statement and a half, obviously I can't have anti-US feeling because I disagree with their actions, it must be because I want to be cool. Perhaps I object to the American treatment of prisoners, I assume you saw those photos, how's that for hard facts?
Object to the treatment of their incarceration? What treatment in particular? Their special Koran time? Or their three squares a day? They are prisoners that lay claim to no army, in short, murderers. They choose to fight us as an insurgency, they knew what the consequences would be. And yes, I will object to your regurgitation of "facts" presented by the drive-by-media.

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Where is this evidence, show me one scrap of information that shows that?
See video link above for "one scrap". Where is your "War for oil" proof? That is still the lib line right?

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Yes obviously we should get rid of the only way we can get unbiased information out of Iraq, remember the American journalist who got arrested for taking pictures of the American dead because the government didn't want the American people to know how many men were dying? The media are the people who get us the pictures of American and British troops beating Iraqi prisoners and expose them to the world (when the soldiers don't take the pictures themselves).

Unbiased? Do you really believe that?
 Had you written this first I would not have even responded to you.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 12:51:32 AM by DUDEMAESTRO »
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Offline Heretek

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2006, 01:04:50 AM »
Yes, I do believe that, that is why I believe in the free press, had they not been there, would we have even seen the video footage of British troops kicking and beating Iraqi prisoners, would we get the real casualty numbers? No.

This is what I object to about the American treatment of prisoners
and lets not forget this
Or this
Or any of the pics available here

Offline chaos0xomega

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2006, 01:36:31 AM »
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We aren't pulling out anytime soon.  Haven't you guys heard, the only reason the US went in there is to steal all the oil and we haven't even begun to pump Iraq dry.

Really? We get more oil from Canuckistan and Mexico than we imported from Iraq Pre Second 'Gulf War'. Venezuela is closer, has a somewhat dictatorial crazy ass america-hating WMD seeking(at one point anyway) president, adn more oil than the entire middle east... why didnt we invade them? Not only that, but Canada and the US combined(even individually) have more oil than the entire middle east. Look up Oil Shale and Oil Sand... its true....

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As the republicans have been telling us... this is not Vietnam.

If you think it is, reread your history. The situation is very similar when broadly generalized, but if you zoom in a teeny bit more Vietnam and Iraq are very different. It could be argued that IRaq is worse AND better at the same time.

For instance, there is no north invades south element. The entire country is currently in US hands, although elements of it are rebelling. We haven't resorted to chemical warfare. Casualty rates on both sides are a lot lower(From what I recall, dont quote me though). A minority group is opposing us, whereas in vietnam a majority group for lack of a better term opposed us. Currently much of the fighting is about religion, whereas that didnt exist in nam. The only real similarity is that our soldiers dont know who the enemy is, although its a lot better than nam. I can keep going with the differences and the few similarities, but I wont.

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But then Bush couldn't pay back all of the people that put him in office in the first place. If hurricane Katrina weren't an act of nature... I would blame that on Bush too.

For the record, the response to Katrina was actually one of the fastest in the countries history. DURING the Hurricane there were quite a few NG heli's in the air rescuing people, by the end of the first day, there were so many that quite a few had to be called back because there was such a high risk for aerial collisions.

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7) More people showed up to vote in Iraq per capita (even though criminal insurgents threatened them with death) then show up for elections in the US (Sans being threatened with death).

A sad day for us indeed for the US, but a great one just as well, for the US and Iraq.

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True... but they are still blowing up american troops with great persistence. It is easier to fight the troops on their turf then get caught trying to blow up something here. Sure, it may not send the same message, but killing troops in Bahgdad still sends a message.

Yeah, it sends a message that the world is hypocritical. Young teenage boys being mutilated in the streets of cities, and the world doesn't bat an eye. Terrorists in Club Gitmo for the most part being given gourmet food, Korans, and rather fair treatment, and a small minority being 'tortured' and the world cries out "INJUSTICE!"

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Do more research. All of the chemicals that were found were pre-91'. All of these weapons were also included in all reports from the Weapons Inspectors sent by the UN. For all intents and purposes, we already knew about these weapons.

SO what you are saying is that these weapons, which were clearly still illegal for said nation, should have been ignored because they were relics of the first Gulf War and were already documented? Faulty faulty logic and reasoning.

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They do not deserve rights under the Geneva convention. What they deserve are speedy trials (as promised by the democratic form of government we are shoving down their throats in Iraq), not drawn out sentances... END OF STORY.

They are mostly being treated well though. And my dad has newspaper clippings that some of you would find interesting. Gitmo inmates being released to afghanistan or iraq being caught taking shots at our troops.

ALSO, WHAT ABOUT OUR SOLDIERS WHO ARE PROBABLY STILL UNDER LEGAL DRINKING AGE THAT ARE BEING MUTILATED AND TRULY TORTURED? WHY DO YOU NOT CRY OUT THAT THE TERRORISTS ARE VILE? I understand killing is  a part of war, but are these people so subhuman that they have to make bodies totally unrecognizable, even to the people who knew them best? Why dont I here you crying out for those people? Why is it the people that shoot at us that you have to 'protect' when they are being detained to prevent things like this from happening? BULLamphetamine parrot!

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I can explain that. Americans are lazy. Too many have lost faith in our government to work.

Did we forget to mention the words 'ever in the United States'?

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Perhaps I object to the American treatment of prisoners, I assume you saw those photos, how's that for hard facts?

Funny, there are x00(0?) people, in Gitmo, and yet only a handful of them 'suffered' so, and all of a sudden all prisoners are being treated that way? Tell me, why is it that our guards in Gitmo are forbidden to touch the Koran unless they are wearing clean white gloves? That the inmates get better food than many US citizen inmates get in Federal penetentiaries? OH, and the inmates get Koran's and any litereature they so desire(within reason) at the expense of the US gov't? Oh, and they are also provided with all the items necessary to observe their faith, recieve excercise, have access to televisions, rec rooms, gyms, etc. etc. and are allowed to observe some religious holidays? Funny, I thought that was torture. SO what if like 20 inmates are 'tortured' by having a guard pretend to sick german shephards on them, even though the dogs are never allowed to touch them, simply to get vital info to keep our boys safe. I admit, that what those guards did to those terroristss was very sick and disturbing, and only brings us down to the level of a terrorist, I still dont see how that is defined as torture, and all of a sudden a minority represents the majority.

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Where is this evidence, show me one scrap of information that shows that?

Well, for one thing, UN inspectors did find some weapons that were deemed 'illegal' or had the potential to be 'illegal', and this was duly reported, and after the invasion, we cannot find a good chunk of it.

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The media are the people who get us the pictures of American and British troops beating Iraqi prisoners and expose them to the world (when the soldiers don't take the pictures themselves).

I once thought Australians were cool.... (congrats on managing to tie croatia yesterday though). You realize that this is a minority occurence, yes? That several US soldiers have been sued by terrorists for the following: Soldier A opens fire on Terrorist first, Terrorist is than injured, files lawsuit, suit is honored by US courts, Terrorist had weapons on him which gave Soldier A good reason to fire, but because Terrorist didnt use weapons, it was a crime, and Soldier A is jailed. Hell, one judge wanted to give a certain Corproral(or was it Colonel) the death sentence for doing just what I discribed.

Oh, and may I mention that what the terrorists/insurgents have done, are unlawful under the Geneva conventions? OH, but of course they dont have to follow it, but we do?


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Yes, I do believe that, that is why I believe in the free press, had they not been there, would we have even seen the video footage of British troops kicking and beating Iraqi prisoners, would we get the real casualty numbers? No.

Also, might I add that what we have done to them is less than 1 one billionth of what they have done to us, and they started it!

Not only that, but I see 4 or 5, 6 tops different soldiers in all those pics, and at most 20 or so Iraqis.... so thats a majority?
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Offline Heretek

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2006, 01:45:48 AM »
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Yes, I do believe that, that is why I believe in the free press, had they not been there, would we have even seen the video footage of British troops kicking and beating Iraqi prisoners, would we get the real casualty numbers? No.

I was using that as an example of why the press shouldn't leave Iraq, learn to read.

Also, might I add that what we have done to them is less than 1 one billionth of what they have done to us, and they started it!
And they started it? How? What provocation did America have? Iraq didn't attack you, you attacked Iraq on he pretext of finding WMDs, which you didn't, and Bush even admitted that you didn't. And as for the "1 billionth of what they have done to us" thing, perhaps you would like to take a look at these statistics?

Offline Mrgame

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2006, 02:08:07 AM »
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Yes, I do believe that, that is why I believe in the free press, had they not been there, would we have even seen the video footage of British troops kicking and beating Iraqi prisoners, would we get the real casualty numbers? No.

I was using that as an example of why the press shouldn't leave Iraq, learn to read.

Also, might I add that what we have done to them is less than 1 one billionth of what they have done to us, and they started it!
And they started it? How? What provocation did America have? Iraq didn't attack you, you attacked Iraq on he pretext of finding WMDs, which you didn't, and Bush even admitted that you didn't. And as for the "1 billionth of what they have done to us" thing, perhaps you would like to take a look at these statistics?

That is all true.We started it they didn't,our president declared he would fire and invade iraq if saddam didn't surrender.They did nothing wrong to provoke us in anyway.

Offline chaos0xomega

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2006, 02:36:01 AM »
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And they started it? How? What provocation did America have? Iraq didn't attack you, you attacked Iraq on he pretext of finding WMDs, which you didn't, and Bush even admitted that you didn't. And as for the "1 billionth of what they have done to us" thing, perhaps you would like to take a look at these statistics?

Ignorant to the text are we? I was speaking of terrorists, not Iraqis, I believe, if I remember my history, that 3000 people died in downtown Manhattan a good 2 years before we ever went into Iraq.

Also, you fail to understand what I say as those statistics mean nothing. I am not talking about how many, but about what.

Also, please notice that those statistics are useles: Notice at the top it states taht is a casualty listing caused by all parties, including terrorists/insurgents, but it does not specify who killed who.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 02:39:21 AM by chaos0xomega »
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2006, 03:22:42 AM »
I know i will rue this, but:

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So, in your mind, this replacement has proved himself as formidable foe in only a couple weeks? Killing A-Z was a step in the right direction, not one of you can put realistic a slant on this fact.It also shows that we are getting the right guys.

But its still kind of pointless if nothing does change anyway. There are nowadays many different fighting fractions in Iraq and the only thing stopping them to get on each others throats is the common enemy (US soldiers)

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For the record, the response to Katrina was actually one of the fastest in the countries history.

Now this is just sad, knowing that other contries were faster with transporting food and medical aid to the Katrina victims then the US governament. And those countries had an ozenan in between...

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and a small minority being 'tortured' and the world cries out "INJUSTICE!"

Perhaps, because the US claimed moral highground ?

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Object to the treatment of their incarceration? What treatment in particular? Their special Koran time? Or their three squares a day?

The denial of sleep, the use of barking dogs for intimidation, interrogation seasons lasting for over half a day... the list is long, and that was even the official version...

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They are prisoners that lay claim to no army, in short, murderers.

Then put them before an unbiased jury? And i bet, many people are even rather innocent (no evidence and such). But "innocence proves nothing" eh? 

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Unbiased? Do you really believe that?
 Had you written this first I would not have even responded to you.

Few media is unbiased, but each shows a different aspect. Oh, and if i would stop responding to someone, because of the medias he watches, then i wouldnt post much here i guess.

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that 3000 people died in downtown Manhattan a good 2 years before we ever went into Iraq.

And pray tell me what the Iraq had to do with that thing?
Sadam wasnt to fond about Al Quaida, you know. I think the US, with their thoughtless invasion simply opened up the "market" for them.


« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 03:24:57 AM by Lonewulf »


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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2006, 06:22:40 AM »
The US would be a lot better off if they figured out that blowing the living beslubber out of things isn't a solution to terrorism. Killing this long list of nasty people won't accomplish anything, and is certainly NOT a step in the right direction, because it doesn't solve any damn problems. The US army should be protecting the local citizens in fact, not just in statement. I've heard them say so many times that "we are here to protect you" but how much protection are they actually offering, when they consider every Iraqi a possible terrorist?
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Offline alienspokinatcha

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2006, 07:47:13 AM »
How can you expect the US forces to protect innocents , Hell they cant even take car of the airport road!
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2006, 07:58:48 AM »
I don't understand your point, could you elaborate please?
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Offline alienspokinatcha

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2006, 08:01:39 AM »
I don't understand your point, could you elaborate please?

There is a road to the airport in baghdad , and it is the most dangerous in the world. The road is teeming with insurgents waiting to ambush ANYTHING.

if you drive down the road there is a super high chance you will get attacked
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Offline Kritik

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2006, 08:05:40 AM »
The US would be a lot better off if they figured out that blowing the living beslubber out of things isn't a solution to terrorism. Killing this long list of nasty people won't accomplish anything, and is certainly NOT a step in the right direction, because it doesn't solve any damn problems. The US army should be protecting the local citizens in fact, not just in statement. I've heard them say so many times that "we are here to protect you" but how much protection are they actually offering, when they consider every Iraqi a possible terrorist?

So what is the solution to terrorism then?
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2006, 08:09:10 AM »
Hearts and Minds. You've got to give the people what they want (notice I didn't say terrorists), and in some cases yeah, you have to get in a fight, but NOT a war. In Ireland, the UK basically ended up in a prolonged fight, but we did so professionally. We didn't go out and kill random enemies because one of our mates got killed the other night (phrase stolen for truth). You are courteous and friendly to the locals of wherever you go, and you don't get aggressive and angry whenever dealing with them.
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Offline Kritik

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2006, 08:25:46 AM »
Hearts and Minds. You've got to give the people what they want (notice I didn't say terrorists), and in some cases yeah, you have to get in a fight, but NOT a war. In Ireland, the UK basically ended up in a prolonged fight, but we did so professionally. We didn't go out and kill random enemies because one of our mates got killed the other night (phrase stolen for truth). You are courteous and friendly to the locals of wherever you go, and you don't get aggressive and angry whenever dealing with them.

So you are positing that being nice will end terrorism?
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2006, 08:30:50 AM »
That's a bit of oversimplification, but yeah, more or less.
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2006, 08:31:44 AM »
It would be a beginning, together with apologising for all the crap done in the last 6o or so years, together with some financial aid. You should try, that works wonders.


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Offline Kritik

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2006, 09:16:26 AM »
That's a bit of oversimplification, but yeah, more or less.

I don't think baking cookies for the locals will really stop religious zealots that wish to destroy us.
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Offline alienspokinatcha

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2006, 09:22:24 AM »
That's a bit of oversimplification, but yeah, more or less.

I don't think baking cookies for the locals will really stop religious zealots that wish to destroy us.

I dont think comparing long term appeasment means baking cookies  :o ........maybe it does to americans and that is where the problem is!

just lame dude.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 09:28:17 AM by alienspokinatcha »
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Like trying to stop the whirlwind scattering seeds and spores
Like trying to stop the tin cans rapping out jailhouse semaphore...'' - "48864"

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2006, 09:23:55 AM »
I know you don't, but the US army has been taking your approach in Iraq for years now and has received nothing for its trouble, while the British Army has been taking the route I'm advocating for decades and has been highly successful all over the world.

So, in summary, what you think is irrelevant. The facts speak for themselves, and they're telling you to shut up and keep bakin' boi.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2006, 09:44:24 AM »
The problem with both routes is possibility in our ideal perceptions of the world they would both work. However life is a mix of both. The benevolence of british peacekeepers and any other peacekeepers has changed since iraq. After Iraq the entire world treats peacekeeping forces with a modicum of suspicion after the US debacle. I give the UK forces the benefit of the doubt. If one of the world's premier intelligence agencies tells you of this very real threat you act on it. Sadly if the intelligence agency lies then the UK pays the price which they are praying. However it was the US government's intelligence that was faulty so in all fairness despite taking all the flack about the war i actually support the staying in to finish the job by acting as peacekeepers which the brits seem to be doing. The americans just seem to add fuel to the flames. Flames which they started in the first place. Iraq is'nt ending any time soon. It's tragically destabilised the country will implode into a full scale breakdown as there are too many old memories that remain and a lot of fingers being pointed. However we do have to remember british callousness in drawing up lines which were convenient back then. But that was a different era with different mentality. That kind of Winston Churchill thinking does'nt work now. Hell not all of Gandhi's ideas were good ones. However to maintain the same dumbass thinking over 40 years of it not working... The US must be dumb. As Stated fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me... But this is like the 4th or 5th thing the US screwed up. South America, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Iraq... How dumb must you be to actually do it so many times?

I actually predict a 6th screw up. Why? Cause the US has'nt learnt its lesson and its "doing it again". We don't deal with crazy dictators? Why on earth is Pakistan in your allies list being a dictatorship. A theocratic country who actually waged war on its neighbour over the fact that land where muslims live belong to pakistan... A country which twice was involved in Ethnic Cleansing. A country that invaded its neighbour on no less than three occassions and is well known for siphoning off CIA money to fight the USSR into its own army against its neighbour. Also for using insurgents trained for taliban and al qaeda when those guys were your best mates to commit killing of hindus in both Azad and Indian Kashmir. And who definitely has a nuke. And a system for delivering it... Please don't tell me this will end well. Despite all my sarky comments this is seriously a bad idea.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

 


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