Topic: To those whining about rending...

[Jester (Hadn't Changed His Profile Recently)]

Compare Harlequins to genestealers. Now tell me that the meager bonuses are worth the extra points. Then tell me they are good at it.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

Besides the fact that Eldar can't field genestealers?  Compairing one unit with another unit not in the same codex is pointless.

[Jester (Hadn't Changed His Profile Recently)]

And yet, they are still crappy at it, leaving marines as the queens of rending. Or am I not allowed to say that marines are good at rending? Put equal points of genestealers and harlequins against anything, and tell me how many times the harlequins outperform them.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

You never answered my question.  "How can a unit with rending suck at it?  Rending works the same no matter the unit."  All you've said is that they suck at rending.  Since the rending rule works on rolling a six on the to hit roll.  Rending works the same no matter what unit wields it.

[Jester (Hadn't Changed His Profile Recently)]

You get a lot more genestealer rending attacks. One harlequin is on equal footing with a genestealer when it comes to rending. But 2 harlequins are not on equal footing with the 3 genestealers you get for the same number of points.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

More attacks from genestealers?  They have a base of two attacks plus one if you pay the four points per model for scything talons.  Harlequins have two attacks base and gain another one for having a pistol and the kiss.  Tell me again how genestealers have more attacks.  Harlequins with kisses cost 22 points, and genestealers with scything talons cost 20 points.  There isn't much difference between them attack-wise.

[Jester (Hadn't Changed His Profile Recently)]

Oh, I was under the impression that the two attacks was after they two cc weapons. Carry on.

[Ixe]

Genestealers:  Higher S, higher T, get eaten ALIVE by heavy bolters and similar.

Harlequins: Equal S and higher I on the charge thanks to furious charge, ignore all terrain instead of just an extra d6, have veil of tears with a shadowseer, have the potential to get fortune giving them an equivalent 3++ save, have hit and run so they can dash out of combat and charge again, just to be cruel.  Not bad, by comparison...

[allconsuminghat]

I actually think the new harlequins are very good - I mean from a powerful point of view, I'm still not convinced its harlequinesque.

[Wuestenfux]

I've said it before and I've said it again.  Harlies in a falcon is a trick.  As soon as opponents figure out the trick to stop it, it will fail every time.

I'm sure the trick works 4 out of 5 times, better 19 out of 20 times.  Especially if the Falcon is close to one or more static shooty squads.

Compare Harlequins to genestealers

Make this comparison if you want. But Genestealers usually don't make it into cc. Use those (Falcon) transported Harlies to pick your targets, like a HT: 6 Harlies - 24 attacks on the charge - 4 rending hits - dead HT.

[SeerLuminati]

I actually think the new harlequins are very good - I mean from a powerful point of view, I'm still not convinced its harlequinesque.

I believe that the new Harlequins are a very good generalization of what all the Harlequins are capable of. Sure, some may miss having an entire Harlequin army, but I believe the capabilities given to the new squad show their range very well. They retained their cover save, their high initiative, their fleety, dash through all terrain running capability, their equipment, and the fact that they have furious charge and hit & Run makes them Very harlequinesque in my opinion. Play against or with them once they are out, and Im certain you will agree.

[magusx316]

Veil of night is what makes the them worth it, genestealers get shot to bits harlies your lucking if you can shoot them before they are in charge range

[allconsuminghat]

The new harlquins are immensly powerful, their genestealers with scything talons right, they ignore terrain instead of just an extr d6, they have invunerables, they have a heavy weapon, they have fusion pistols, they have to have night fight tests but even harsher when shooting at them, they have plasma grenades (Sh-Seer) and in addition to all this they have squad leaders, furious charge and hit and run, all of this for what? +2 points or something, they are disgustingly good.

[Lord Ulthanash]

I have no problem with them having rending, in fact I love it! the first thing I have to do is match them up (even points of course  ) with gene stealers and see which unit is better.

[Dinendal]

about comparing harlies...

they are more like deamonettes than genestealers...

5 inv
3 T
4 S (if charging)
lots of rending attacks...

yeah they look more like deamonettes...

IMO, everyone will hate Harlequins... as much as we hate the assault cannon... oh I forgot, this gun has rending toO! HAHAH TAKE THAT SMURFS !

Dinendal

[Locarno]

I was just going to say.....

Daemonettes are and probably always will be the queens of rending.....but harlequins are a superb unit

Just for reference:

220 point squad (more or less)

14 genestealers vs 10 kiss-wielding harlequins

Stealers charge:

Stealers:
42 attacks
21 normal hits/7 rending hits
14 wounds+7 auto wounds
14 kills - harlequins wiped out

Harlequins:
30 attacks
10 normal hits/5 rending hits
3 wounds
2 kills + 5 auto kills

I admit this looks messy - but bear in mind that a 'fragile' unit has just been charged by what is acknowledged as one of the nastiest throughbred assault killer units in the game.....and that's assuming it made it across the board without a scatterlaser falcon or warwalker expressing an opinion on the matter - or for that matter the harlequins own volley of pistol fire. Now look at it the other way around....

Harlequins charge

Harlequins
Pistol shots (if fleet not needed - and with flip belts and good use of terrain you've a good chance of doing this even if these two units are the only ones on the field.)
10 shots
7 hits
3 kills

40 attacks
13 hits/7 rending hits
7 wounds
5 kills + 7 auto kills

for a total of 11 kills at a better initiative than the genestealers. 14 if you get the pistol shots. Meaning a grand total of not only no casualties from a 14-strong genstealer brood, but all the 'stealers dead before the tyranid player even gets to pick any dice up!
(good. It's about time they found out how disheartening that is....)

[Lord Ulthanash]

so it all depends on who charges...Damn. But I still prefer trying out the unit to math, math always fails me.

[Locarno]

Well....both units are such uber killers, but if you acutally look, you'll register that they're so close in statline that it will basically come down to the charge - one side has furious charge and the other doesn't.

It's like having two lowly MEQ assault units facing off.

Any statline analysis is unreliable, but the more dice a given unit uses, the more accurately it should follow the averages.
Two cr*pload-of-rending-attacks units fit into that bracket quite well...

[allconsuminghat]

I'm going to be fielding 3 squads of 10 of them in my harly army whether it makes sense or not to field the maximum number of harlequins (because I love them so) but is normal terms would a squad of 10 be overkill? Say in an eldar army or in a less fanatical harlequin themed army. I'd usually say 6-8 would be about right to take on most units esspecially when you factor in the deathjester, shadowseer and troupe leader with power weapon, and fusion pistols and all.

[faithlessmonkeigh]

yuh i whining about rending, and everything else.

i dont think that anyone has posted a single reason why i should not be annoyed.

they took the wonderful wargear and dissolved it they removed the venom they got rid of the solitaire (didnt they?) and the models are umm well the poses are a little bit tupenny shuffley... right?


im really hoping something new is added, like in white dwarf later on

not happy