Topic: The new Harlequins Kiss

[Farceseer Syranaul]

The Warseer's Eldar Rumour III board has a rumour on it that the new harlequins will be equipped with rending kisses.  Which would be okay if I didn't like they way they work now so darn much.  Any one else think like this?

[Bumbles]

Perhaps that simply means "will act like a rending weapon" ie instant kill on 6+.

We need to wait for the Eldar Codex to find out. But if it ACTS like a rending weapon and its classed as a power weapon, I think you'll find a lot of happy 'Quins.

[celestial.dragon]

If it's true I'm going to miss hitting on a 2+. I love my old kiss.

Then again a few sacrifices will have to be made if we ever want to see them official again.

I just hope that I can reconvert my army properly now that it's almost done.

[Bumbles]

I reckon too maybe people will complain about the hitting on 2+.
So it's as you've said, a necessary loss.
I know my brother HATES it. I wasted a squad of Genestealers because my Solitaire was kitted out with a Kiss. Hits on a 2+, 6 odd attacks. Bye bye 'Nids. They didn't even get a chance to attack.

[Dinendal]

That would suck so much... I hate rending... it breaks the game... anyway only the solitaire is a real threat with kisses... and if we get rending kisses, power weapons will be useless... I hate to base my tactic on pure % luck... 1/6 luck is worst than 1/3 (marine save), 1/2 (4+ save) , 2/3 (5+ save)... rending sucks.

Dinendal

[Bumbles]

I thought Rending was on top of the normal Power Wepon effects.
It's an added bonus.

[Dinendal]

I thought Rending was on top of the normal Power Wepon effects.
It's an added bonus.

hmmm no. Rending gives autowound/no armor save if you roll 6 to hit. Nothing more.

My argument is that you must base your strategy in getting as much 6s as possible. Which I don't like...

If we look at kisses now...you need a very low score to wound... so there's no luck there... the luck would be in the ennemy taking an armor save... but then only if you are attacking some termies (which you don't do with kisses...) the luck would be for him to roll 1. If you assault 3+ units... then the luck is for getting 1 or 2... 4+ save, 1,2 or 3...etc

And with rending you only want to roll 6s...

You got it?
Dinendal

[-The Reaper-]

F**K! the amount of rending rumours that are popping up lately, you'd think GW is giving every army rending??

Rending should only be able to glance vehices.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

1. The kiss wounds, not hits, on a 2+.

2.  Lets not make this a rant about rending itself. 

The thing I like the most about the way the kiss works now is the insta-kill on a to wound roll of a 6.  The enemy is still allowed a save against it, but it is still so handy when it works out.  If people think rending is sick on a Assault Cannon.  Imagine the cries of unholiness four attacks on the charge with rending will get.  This leads me to believe that they won't get rending.  However, GW has been known to let the obvious abuses slip by unchecked.

[interpretivechaos]

It's not worse than Genestealers, who can pack in the rending CC attacks as well.

The sad thing about Rending in my opinion is that it doesn't scale in the least with weaponskill, toughness, armoursaves etc. For example, If you were to give Firewarriors Harlies kisses w/ rending, they would be almost as effective per attack, since its only the sixes to hit that rend.

On the plus side, I think that rending in CC is fairly fluffy. It means you strike a weakpoint, slicing through armor and flesh and into a vital organ or whatever. I'm mildly annoyed about it turning Harlequins into walking lascannons in CC (roll a six and its the same as strength nine) but there are worse things that could happen.

Shooting... Well I'm glad (from the sound of it) that eldar aren't getting any rending shooting weapons.

[Algavinn of the Many Paths]

if the shuriken cannon were to get rending, then harlies would have a rending shooting weapon now wouldnt they.


rending would rather screw over harlequins to some degree against orks/tyranids, as i find the HK to be quite important here, as well as against chaos daemons and the like.

[Dinendal]

With all the rending rumors the Eldar armoury would be full of these...

Shuriken catapult
Shuriken canon
Vibro canon and death spinner (mesh weapon)
Laser lance (shining spears)

All these have rumors about getting rending... and I think none of these will get it... rending on range weapon is just stupid... we shouldn't say "smurfs got assault canon now we want rending too" we should be happy of what we get without needing rending...

The harlequins kiss is already very good for what ut does: Doing lots of wounds and the possibility to kill a multiqound model on 1 shot. With the strenght of eldar model being very low, this is a very good weapon as it is at the moment (like the witchblade) so we don't need it to become more powerfull...

Dinendal

[Algavinn of the Many Paths]

aye, if i were able to i'd fight against the use of rending, at least on the kiss.  I don't think any of our weapons really need rending, though i know alot of people would love it on shuriken catapults to give the guardians and dire avengers some added use, but lets look at the standard infantry unit in other armies, such as guardsmen or gaunts, gretchin or shoota boys.  None of them have fantastic normal weapons, and they shouldnt because of their points cost and the fact that they are standard.  I would say giving dire avengers a better catapult that had rending would be reasonable, though.  As far as the shuriken cannon, either it will get a points increase for the ability, in which case the scatter lsaer may be a better choice for many of the roles it plays, or it will be used in bulk where it may...which is everywhere.  I personally dont like running my games hoping off of a 16.5% chance to do something.  I don't believe i would change where i use shuriken catapults, especially as the range at the moment is a bit prohibitive in some capacities.  The warp spiders i already find plunty strong enough without rending, and would prefer not to pay more for them to have it.

[allconsuminghat]

Speaking on the topic of changing eldar weapons, what will happen to the harlequins if people still wanted to use the CJ lists because they weren't satisfied by the codex harlequins, I think its very likely that the brightlance will get a boost in either ap or strength, or both, to make up for all those rediculous lance ignoring tanks, in my opinion, only the monolith should have it. I'm actually more supprise when I see an armour 14 tank without protection than one with. AC Lemun russes, BT land raider crusaders, Monoliths.... the list will grow.... And the eldar heavy weapons bar the starcannon will probably all get a boost of some kind. Do we still use the weapons profiles given in our PDF (39) and our Cj44 or do we use the new ones from the eldar codex?

Back on the original topic, I strongly disaprove of rending harlequins kisses. In my opinion, the entire 2d6 armour penetration part of the rule should be scrapped, (maybe except tyranid warriors, their big) but the rest of the rule should stay, be given to the shuriken cannon, which, I'd have to say, deserves it a heck of alot more than the assault cannon.

[Farceseer Syranaul]

The brightlance is fine as it is.  I just wish that GW would make up its mind weather it is an assult weapon, like in the codex, or a heavy weapon, like in the main rule book.

Like I said.  I like the harlequin's kiss the way it is, but I wouldn't mind rending as a 'nerf'.  If 'nerf' is the right word for it.  According to the fluff rending sounds right.  Darn it, I like the opportunity to insta-kill multi-wound models!  Then again, a power weapon on a roll of 6 wouldn't to bad either.  I'm so torn.

[allconsuminghat]

Yeah, the lance probably is fine as it is (excpet fluff wise, superior technology and all), its the abscense of a non lance anti tank weapon in dark eldar that warps my opinion, its almost impossible to down multiple blessed hulls and AC lemun russes and there is no anti tank altenative.

Why would rending be a nerf for the kiss? it makes it great against lots of things that it would have been.... not so great against other wise. I like the kisses just as they are, I can't see why they should be rending.

[Hybrid 9]

Darn it, I like the opportunity to insta-kill multi-wound models!  Then again, a power weapon on a roll of 6 wouldn't to bad either.  I'm so torn.

I believe there is already something as riveblades in Harlequin wargear. which is in fact a power weapon that insta-kills on a 6.

And having one of those I seriously doubt that GW would bother screwing up a perfectly good weapon so it can mimic another one we already have. We basicly have very good and cool weaponry of which each has its niche on the battlefield. So if there is a stand alone codex for harlequins coming out (chapter approved or official) I don't think we will see drastic changes in the wargear section.

PS: For the codex I'm hoping on a toned down version of the EO revision

[Draza]

Shuriken catapult
Shuriken canon
Vibro canon and death spinner (mesh weapon)
Laser lance (shining spears)

I believe the shuriken weapons won't have it. First I've heard about it for laser lances. I've heard the rumours for the mesh weapons having rending. Sounds good, but I hope the spiders don't cost 35pts each.

Anyway, back to the Harlie Kiss. The way they're making Harlequins sound, is that they're the ultimate in combat warefare. While having a whole army of Harlequins may be unbalancing (hard to balance) or maybe unfluffy, giving Eldar access to 1 or 2 killer Harlequins units may be the road they're heading. Make them limited but still something to fear. Having the Kisses have rending wouldn't be too bad, would be quite nice. Means the units could handle any target. If this is in addition to always wounding on a 2+, would have to rank up there as one of the best assault weapons in the game (which the Harlies do deserve). Guess we'll have to wait and find out.

Speaking on the topic of changing eldar weapons, what will happen to the harlequins if people still wanted to use the CJ lists because they weren't satisfied by the codex harlequins

Well you could still use the CJ list. Anywhere GW moderated, the Harlequins are not permitted. Away from tournaments and GW stores, as long as you have permission you could use the list

[Farceseer Syranaul]

Darn it, I like the opportunity to insta-kill multi-wound models!  Then again, a power weapon on a roll of 6 wouldn't to bad either.  I'm so torn.

I believe there is already something as riveblades in Harlequin wargear. which is in fact a power weapon that insta-kills on a 6.

Yes the riveblades are power weapons that can insta-kill models.  However, the rumour is about the Harlequin Kisses replacing what they do now with just the rending ability.

[Spirit of Kurnous]

redning kisses wouldnt be a bad thing, basically would make harlies like eldar equivalent of deamonettes with fleet.