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Author Topic: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue  (Read 5707 times)

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Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #20 on: May 8, 2007, 04:30:49 AM »
This does not mean that you're "renting" your property.
  But you are renting the land. You can own the house, but you are just renting the land it is on. You can buy properly, but not land. That is the difference here.

No, you can own land. Again, any time the government interferes with your property, is because you've probably done something stupid, or are about to do something stupid. You do need permits to do a lot of stuff, but those permits are there to ensure your safety and the safety of others. Say you have 2 acres, and you want to build another house on the 2nd acre. You need a permit, and you need to have a housing inspector approve it, because someone might come into your house, and because you didn't think to put railings on your staircase, they fall and break their neck, or you improperly seal a gaspipe, your house explodes, and sets the surrounding area ablaze.

So you can't do much without the government's permission, but the other side of the coin is they can't really come in and do anything without yours.

But again, we could put a vote up for allowing citizens to do whatever they want with their land. As a society, we don't see the need, and the cons usually outweigh the pros.

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #21 on: May 8, 2007, 04:41:27 AM »
No, you can own land.
   But only in Texas. That is the only place yuo can own by Alonial Title. Anywhere else you are just renting it from the state. This is covered in detail in the lecture.

I've heard something about a relatively new law which basically says that the president can define who is an enemy combatant.This basically enables him to have anyone arrested at any time, regardless of what courts say.
   This was provided for under the Military Commissions Act (october 2006). It not only allows the president to name any foreign national an illegal enemy combatant (and thus not subject to the rights of fair trial, council or such) but indeed even US citizens. No trial, go to jail, do not pass go do not collect $200. It is a sadistic piece of legislation. Torture (as specificed in the act) is also ok... at least up to a point. it even states that the geneva convention does not cover such illegal combatants. Nice huh? Blank check to do what you want, basically.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2007, 08:16:04 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #22 on: May 8, 2007, 04:48:57 AM »
No, you can own land.
   But only in Texas. That is the only place yu can own by Alonial Title. Anywhere else you are just renting it from the state. This is covered in detail in the lecture.

The lecture, which is just an interpretation by someone who is not an expert on the subject.

You see lack of ownership. I see regulation.

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Offline lasblaster

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #23 on: May 8, 2007, 11:27:45 AM »
You see lack of ownership. I see regulation.

But what rasmus is saying is that, in most cases, regulation IS lack of ownership. You have every right to "do something stupid" or "act like a jackass" on your own property, so long as you are not interfering with anyone elses right to do whatever it is they want. And if the government wants to come onto your property and punish or stop you, you have ever right to tell them to stuff themselves, provided you are not infringing on the rights of others.

This has actually sparked me to do some research into libretarians, and so far, a lot of their values match up with my own personal beliefs. Much thanks to rasmus for getting me to expand the old horizons.
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Offline Sgt. Sota

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #24 on: May 9, 2007, 03:28:16 PM »
Property must include the fact that the owner has sole right to dispose and make use of that property as they see fit. Property is sole right to to use of some thing. As soon as you have told someone what they may and may not do with that property, you have violated that sole right.
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #25 on: May 9, 2007, 04:03:00 PM »
Well, i know, that in Germany, you cant own land. You can rent it from the state, the rent being the "Grundsteuer" (soiltax). The state may also take it away from you, if it benefits the community, to a price it can dictate. You take care of the land, you dont own it here. There are a whole lot of things you dont may do to your soil. Is it different in the US?


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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #26 on: May 9, 2007, 04:06:22 PM »
Eminent domain is what you're referring to in the US and UK. As you can expect with such a power it can be used and abused for personal gain. People are people after all.
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #27 on: May 9, 2007, 04:14:01 PM »
Yes, that was what i was asking for, thanks Dipsomaniac  :)


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Offline Leeroy Jenkins

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #28 on: May 9, 2007, 04:26:33 PM »
Archon I'd love to see you asking the English to recite the Magna Carta

I cant recite it, its in Latin (and although I have studied Latin I can only remember : Caecilius est in horto!) + it was written in the 13th century + it has over 60 articles (the US constitution has 10?) + less than 10 ( I think) are still in use today in England =/. I dont think anyone I know bar my History Teacher could recite that off memory (in English).
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2007, 02:41:03 AM »
Well, i know, that in Germany, you cant own land. You can rent it from the state, the rent being the "Grundsteuer" (soiltax). The state may also take it away from you, if it benefits the community, to a price it can dictate. You take care of the land, you dont own it here. There are a whole lot of things you dont may do to your soil. Is it different in the US?
  In the US it is the same way, save in Texas, where you can actually own the land through Alonial Title. However,this opportunity is tricky to come by, and the bureaucracy around it is somewhat insane.

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Offline Eidolon

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2007, 11:38:28 PM »
the problem facing the US is that which will face all nations that focus on freedom. the government steadily becomes less and less trustable. sorry if my wording isnt good its late ill try and modify this post tomorrow. basically you have the original rights and they are steadily taken away by fear and greed. look at the civil war. right or wrong that set the precident that the federal government is more powerful then the states. you have the patriot act which is designed to protect american citizens from terrorism. however it takes this nation 1 step closer to being a police state. eminent domain is another one. the fact that the government can come and take my house and pay me half the market value so a shopping center can be built there scares me.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

more quotes like that here
http://boortz.com/more/quotes.html

Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2007, 01:27:29 AM »
I love the fact that that quote is featured in the lecture linked in the first post. :)

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Offline Eidolon

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2007, 11:41:55 AM »
I love the fact that that quote is featured in the lecture linked in the first post. :)

i was short of time to read anything more then the jist of the argument and insert my 2 cents. its true though.

Offline Frescadude

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2007, 02:35:12 PM »
So could someone give me an example of something that you need a permit for that doesn't affect other people?  The building a house was brought up but in fact it only has to be inspected if you intend to rent or sell it.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2007, 07:08:36 PM »
Driving a car, even your own car on your own property, with noone around, requires a license. Legally speaking at least.
Fishing in your own water (save alonial title) could require a license. Same with hunting.
In some states you have to get a license to own a dog, at least some breeds as I believe, even though it will never leave your property, thus not affecting anyone else.

I have a little more to to, or I could ind some more, I am sure.

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Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2007, 09:28:13 PM »
Driving a car, even your own car on your own property, with noone around, requires a license. Legally speaking at least.
Fishing in your own water (save alonial title) could require a license. Same with hunting.
In some states you have to get a license to own a dog, at least some breeds as I believe, even though it will never leave your property, thus not affecting anyone else.

I have a little more to to, or I could ind some more, I am sure.


Actually, no.

You can't be ticketed for driving violations on private property. At least in New Jersey. It's why the cops don't pull you over for speeding in a parking lot, or for not wearing your seatbelt in a parking lot.

You can fish and hunt on your own land as much as you want. There's nothing they can do to stop you. Even if it's an endangered species. This is why if an endangered species lives on someone's property, they'll try and purchase the property and set up a wildlife reserve.

As for dogs and exotic animals, it's the same premise as a gun. That dog could go wild, escape, and viciously attack an innocent bystander. They have to know you're qualified to properly take care of and control that animal. "I won't let it outside" isn't much of a guarantee when dealing with a potentially deadly item or animal.

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Offline Frescadude

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2007, 11:05:29 PM »
Archon pretty much summed up what I was going to say.  The government normally offers incentives to those owning land with endangered species on it to not mess with them.
Rock n' Roll vs. Classical music:  Mozart created a concierto that you had to play with your nose, Hendrix didn't have to play with his nose, but he did anyway.

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Offline pete alvarez

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2007, 10:20:02 PM »
Being a hunter myself, I am familiar with the laws regarding such.

Hunting and fishing on your own land is perfectly legal sans license provided that:

If you are fishing, it is in pond that is located solely on your property(regardless of whether the title is alonial or not). Navigable water, such as rivers are large lakes where you are not the only property holder on the water are different, as the belong to everyone on that water.

You are not hunting an endagered species, and your land is fenced in such a way that they animals can not come and go.  Once more, the main issue is proving that these are your animals, not ones that roam amongst the landscape.



The idea in both these cases is that no one person owns the wild animals running around everywhere.  If they are not runing free, then they are obviously yours.  If you want to shoot them all, that is up to you, but you will eventually run out, that's fine it's your decision.  If we let any yahoo who has a gun shoot as many deer as he wanted just because they were on his property, there wouldn't be any deer left.  His right to shoot deer just ruined everybody's right to have some deer existing at all.

As far as the car thing goes, the law is the same here in Texas as it is in Jersey.  As long as you aren't driving the car on public roads, which the government paid for and therefore owns, you don't have to have a license, insurance, registration, or inspection. 

Never heard of the dog thing, It doesn't exist in Texas.

The problem here is that the constitution says that if said constitution doesn't expressly give the right to the federal government, or deny it to the states, then the state can make pretty much any law they want regarding it, as long as it doesn't go against the rest of the constitution. (tenth ammendment paraphrased)


Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2007, 05:41:43 AM »
I know that this is digging, but I am just so ecstatic right now.

Ok, as for rights getting infringed, the Military Commissions Act of early 2007 removed Habeas Corpus (the great writ which allows you to appear before a judge to try to repeal an unlawful conviction) from the rights of the US. You can now simply be dropped into a black hole and locked away indefinitely. Habeas Corpus is a cornerstone of any democracy (not that the US is a democracy, it is a republic, but that's beside the point) as it ensures that the government simply does not lock up and throw away the key on people they don't like, like.... opposition political figures and such.
The military Commissions Act removed this. As a citizen of the US you can get thrown into jail without proper trial or sentence, and not have the right to appeal this, or appears before a judge to argue your case. It is pretty bad.

The reason I am happy? The Military Commissions Act is getting fringed around the edges. Wit ha little luck the Habeas Corpus can be restored, and the right once again invoked to safeguard the freedom fro unlawful imprisonment of any in the US. Someone got it right. Me happy.

Again, my pardon for digging.

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Offline Sheepz

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2007, 06:54:37 PM »
I thought I'd throw this link in. Takes about 5 minutes to read and is quite interesting. Also by a reputable British Newspaper. Gone are the days when I'd post simply to provoke a good angry responce, however I read this article a few weeks ago and found it interesting. I think GW Bush is a pretty naff leader, but I'd stop short of fascist. Anyway. Read it and don't flame me for mentioning the "F" word.

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