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EldarOnline => Eldar => Topic started by: Lazarus on June 26, 2009, 03:43:10 PM
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I was down at my LGS the other day and was disussing the current affairs of local tournies. Over the last 5 years or so "RTT" type events have gone extremely cut throat and could almost be viewed as non comp events. Comp was now a formaility and even that was changed to the checklist type structure you'd likely see at an event like Adepticon. The "hobby focus" has been pretty much replaced with ruthless competition. Sure, they may be a few "soft" lists there but more often than not 75%+ are running pure beatstick. The Massacre system (formerly not used in RTT play) does not help with this situation either. Many people like to use these events as "practice" for their beatstick lists they are taking to bigger events.
This got me thinking about my 1,850 Mech / Reserves list. When we were dicussing what the deffinition of a "top tier" or "Ard" list was we agreed it was likely something that you could look at yet not really improve upon without imbalancing it somewhere else. The list as is would be 100% optimized and changes to that would likely lower it's overall "rating" (looking at you Moc). This is my standard 1,850 list that I've used to capture 3 straight best overalls with. It is a slight variation of my 1,750 list already posted but the addition of the council (instead of Scorpions) gives it a huge jump in power.
(210) Daruthaya ("counts as" Eldrad)
(155) Prince Edukhai ("counts as" Yriel)
(306) 10 Warlocks w/ 2 embolden, 2 enhance, 1 destructor & 2 spears
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL shuriken cannons & spirit stones
(130) 10 Storm guardians w/ 2 fusion guns, warlock w/ destructor & spear
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(85) 10 Defender guardians w/ shuriken cannon
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(60) 5 Dire avengers
(180) Falcon w/ EML, holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
3 Scoring units
12 KP's
Mech / reserves gives us amazing mobility, duarbility and scoring options compared to other standard Eldar lists. I think it lets us take on the bulk of the tourney arch types that we are likely to face with the highest probability of success. There is enough CC in the list to even break the backs of stuff like Orks and Tyranids. Without totally selling out the theme (pirates) I can't think of much to really make it "better".
Any thoughts?
I'll be expanding this to 2,500 for the 'Ard Boyz competition in July. I'm looking to add this:
(212) 10 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ Claw, stalker & shadowstrike
(145) Wave Serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
(145) 8 Fire dragons w/ Exarch w/ Dragon's breath & crack shot
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
The addition comes to 647 points brining the list total to 2,497.
Thoughts?
Lazarus.
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You don't think you'll need another scoring unit when you bump up to the higher points level?
At 2.5k, 3 scoring units seems to me to be a vulnerability.
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This thought had initally occured to me but the mech list offers great survivability and over the last several tournaments I have not had any issues with my TROOPS surviving. I can always hold the TROOP parts in reserve.
The addition of the Fire dragons helps to put a hammer onto the "super units" like Nobs etc. as well as dealing with heavy AV.
Scorps give me more CC which is important when you are trying for massacre results.
I don't know what the missions will be for the 'Ard boyz so I'm really just guessing at this point. If I HAD to add in another troop choice it would likely be another storm guardian unit (dropping the Scorps) leaving me 85 points to spend on something else....not sure though.
Lazarus.
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I think if you're planning to reserve your troops and make good use of that, I wouldn't change a thing, either at 1850 or 2500. I don't like the rather squishy nature of your 3 scoring units (5 DAs, and guardians for the rest), but again, reserves and vehicles will help protect them. This is your weakpoint by far, though.
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I'm totally happy with 3 units at 1,850 - remember, they don't get out of the tanks anyways. They aren't squishy that way :)
Lazarus
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If they never get out, why not 3x5 DAs? The gear on those storm guardians suggests there will be times when they jump out and flame people.
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If they never get out, why not 3x5 DAs? The gear on those storm guardians suggests there will be times when they jump out and flame people.
3x5 Dire avengers is usually frowned on in a comp type envorinment. I do agree that comp plays a lesser role than it previously has but it is still there. The guardians (especially my conveted storm guardians) fit my Pirate theme nicely. It's this theme where my "counts as" characters help to satisfy the fluff Nazis.
As to them getting out - they occasionaly do but it's usually against an isolated foe that I'm sure to kill or at a point in the game where it doesn't matter. Examples of this can be found in my battle reports.
Lazarus.
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My traditional concern would be lack of anti-tank.
How are you going to deal with, say, SoB list with 3 exorcists and all squads in rhinos, or new IG list with some 10 shooty tanks? I seriosly beleive that the latter would soon become one of the standard "power-archetypes" in addition to the existing ones.
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Posted by: SeekingOne
My traditional concern would be lack of anti-tank.
How are you going to deal with, say, SoB list with 3 exorcists and all squads in rhinos, or new IG list with some 10 shooty tanks? I seriosly beleive that the latter would soon become one of the standard "power-archetypes" in addition to the existing ones.
The same way I've dealt with multiple Land raider & Vindicator lists . I usually alpha strike them from reserves or overload them on a flank etc (Divination might help here). In addition, once I do unload the council I seem to be able to destroy pretty much anything in their path and of course Yriel often breaks off to go pound something dead be it a vehicle or unit. I can't really fit more AT in there than I already have without losing one of my TROOP choices. I've faced Mech SOB's before and it's not that bad. I haven't had a chance to fight a competition IG list for the new codex yet but I know that it could be an uphill battle. Of course then again, they have a new codex to work with that is designed for this edition.
Another 'Ard boyz option upgrade would be: 645 pts
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & Spirit stones
(80) 5 Fire dragons
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
(80) 5 Fire dragons
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL Shuriken cannons & spirit stones
(85) 10 Defender guardians w/ Shuriken cannon
This gives me a second scoring unit and decent AT punch....and 9 skimmers.
Lazarus
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Posted by: SeekingOne
My traditional concern would be lack of anti-tank.
How are you going to deal with, say, SoB list with 3 exorcists and all squads in rhinos, or new IG list with some 10 shooty tanks? I seriosly beleive that the latter would soon become one of the standard "power-archetypes" in addition to the existing ones.
The same way I've dealt with multiple Land raider & Vindicator lists . I usually alpha strike them from reserves or overload them on a flank etc (Divination might help here). In addition, once I do unload the council I seem to be able to destroy pretty much anything in their path and of course Yriel often breaks off to go pound something dead be it a vehicle or unit. I can't really fit more AT in there than I already have without losing one of my TROOP choices. I've faced Mech SOB's before and it's not that bad. I haven't had a chance to fight a competition IG list for the new codex yet but I know that it could be an uphill battle. Of course then again, they have a new codex to work with that is designed for this edition.
Another 'Ard boyz option upgrade would be: 645 pts
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & Spirit stones
(80) 5 Fire dragons
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
(80) 5 Fire dragons
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL Shuriken cannons & spirit stones
(85) 10 Defender guardians w/ Shuriken cannon
This gives me a second scoring unit and decent AT punch....and 9 skimmers.
Lazarus
I usually only lurk, but I felt that since this is an 'Ard list I would throw in my 2 cents.
I think your first variation with the squad of Scorpions would be the better of the two lists to use. I have read some of your other battle reports and you never seem to have trouble keeping your troop selections safe. While the danger to them increases from 1750/1850 to 2500, the inclusion of the 8 Fire Dragons to cover vehicles and the 10 Scorpions to cover extra CC should be plenty of protection.
I also feel the use of two squads of Fire Dragons, while intimidating, is a bit unnecessary when you are already fielding 2 Fire Prisms, a Falcon, and four T/L Bright Lances. That, of course, is not including all of your Spears on your Warlocks/Yriel/Eldrad. Also, when it comes to heavily mechanized SoB or SM lists, they will rely heavily on Rhinos, which can be taken down by your Shuriken Cannons if it really comes down to it.
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Posted by: BrutalMetal
I usually only lurk, but I felt that since this is an 'Ard list I would throw in my 2 cents.
Welcome to 40K online! :)
I think your first variation with the squad of Scorpions would be the better of the two lists to use. I have read some of your other battle reports and you never seem to have trouble keeping your troop selections safe. While the danger to them increases from 1750/1850 to 2500, the inclusion of the 8 Fire Dragons to cover vehicles and the 10 Scorpions to cover extra CC should be plenty of protection.
Agreed. I was only really kicking around the second option. I may test both....
Lazarus.
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(210) Daruthaya ("counts as" Eldrad)
(155) Prince Edukhai ("counts as" Yriel)
(306) 10 Warlocks w/ 2 embolden, 2 enhance, 1 destructor & 2 spears
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL shuriken cannons & spirit stones
(130) 10 Storm guardians w/ 2 fusion guns, warlock w/ destructor & spear
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(85) 10 Defender guardians w/ shuriken cannon
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(60) 5 Dire avengers
(180) Falcon w/ EML, holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
3 Scoring units
12 KP's
1846pts
Mech / reserves gives us amazing mobility, duarbility and scoring options compared to other standard Eldar lists. I think it lets us take on the bulk of the tourney arch types that we are likely to face with the highest probability of success. There is enough CC in the list to even break the backs of stuff like Orks and Tyranids. Without totally selling out the theme (pirates) I can't think of much to really make it "better".
Any thoughts?
I'll be expanding this to 2,500 for the 'Ard Boyz competition in July. I'm looking to add this:
(212) 10 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ Claw, stalker & shadowstrike
(145) Wave Serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
(145) 8 Fire dragons w/ Exarch w/ Dragon's breath & crack shot
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
The addition comes to 647 points brining the list total to 2,493.
Thoughts? (I edited the points to correct them ~ moc065)
Reserved for moc-score
First off though, why only 1846pts to start with.... you could squeeze something into those last 4 points; no ?
Also understand that I have both played and faced this list and its its 1750 varient as well (really, as I think they are hardcore and they are not no-brainer sto use well, as I have done well with them; but I have also seen them absolutely dominated). As for the 3 points to spare, add one more spear to the council for AT purposes, and its 2500 bang on... now I only have to slap together 2 more Serpents in 2 weeks to run the 2500pts list. Oh and paint one crapload of loder figures to match my red style. I also rated the 1750 varient already so there is no need for lazarus to post the whole rundown on tactics, story line etc... as I am familiar with it, and you can check his 1750 varient to get that info if you want it.
moc-score @ 1846
The army works as 6 fighting sections with Big-E and/or Yriel going with the Warlocks; but also having the ability to work with other units or on their own... it can start on table and "Devine" a new set-up if required, or start off table with pretty good "Reserve" options.
1.. Anti-tank potential All 6 sections have decent anti-tank, but honestly the 2 TL-BL's are the best ranged AT, and the lack of a dedicated AT unit like Fire Dragons could hurt a little, as some stuff isnot reliable AT... Thus I score it as Good 0.8 but a lot depends on combo's and player usage.
2.. Anti-MEQ potential Once again, all 6 sections have some options vs MEQ; but nothing is 100% dedicated A-MEQ like Dark Reapers would be; the Eye of Doom, and some other really good items do help a lot though... Thus again I rate it as Good 0.8 but again a lot depends on the combo's and player usage.
3.. Anti-Horde potential The Fireprisms are great vs Hordes; but so are many other items such as Destructor, mass Witchblades, small arms fire, etc... I don't think its uber uber aweseom for Crowd Control; but it has the potential to trim units as it moves around... Thus I score it as Good 0.8
4.. Ranged Firepower potential I love the Serpent/Falcon configs for ranged firepower; but the Fireprism's can be prone to poor Scatter and the Cargo's are limited in their ranged output; so timing is critical... Thus I rate it as Above Average 0.7 as many things are dependant on early success and player usage and timing becomes a huge factor.
5.. Assault potential Now some will say that the Council is limited due to Big-E not being able to Fleet, etc... but do not under-estimate the power of the Uber Council, especially if combined with a gang of Pumped up Stormies and some softening blows from shooting. The Assault potential of this army is wicked if used correctly... Thus I rate it as Very Good 0.9 as target priority is its one key issue.
6.. Scoring Units / point level 3 scoring units @ 1850 is fine, as long as their resilient enough to last the game, and have the speed to gain the right objectives; and both criteria are met within this army... Thus I score it as Good 0.8 but again understand that timing is esential and coordinated play.
7.. Durability or Resilience The Heavy Supports are the toughest nuts to crack; but even the rest has good resilience as it can arrive and deliver its punch to often avoid return. Timing, Target Priority, and Coordination are key; but when used correctly this type of army can be seriously resilient... Thus I score it as Very Good 0.9
8.. Flexability There is almost no limit to the flexibility of this style of army (aside from standing still and fighting ~ which can still be an option)... Thus I score it as Very Good 0.9
9.. Mission Capabiliy 12 Kill points is decent, and it can certainly score when required or contest, etc... When I used this type of army I hammered out Massacre after Massacre, even vs armies that I thought would be tougher... Yes you need to watch for certain infiltrators, or some IG delay items; but overall this type of army is one of the Strongest Eldar armies going in terms of Mission potential... Thus I score it as Excellent 1.0; please remember that with that potential also comes the means to over-estimate and fail hard, so player usage is a huge factor.
10. Dynamics and/or Theme Theme is out the window, and I don't care about the Pirate story, this is a Power Gamers list and that is that.... Dynamics and Synergy however are there in spades, so give it a cool story, paint it well to match and play it as a combo toting bag of tricks and it has huge potential to be dynamic and synergetic... Thus I rate it as Very Good 0.9 (mostly because I actually like Lazarus' story etc, and for the synergy).
Rating = 8.5/10 ~~ Some will score it differently (and it can get beat down)... but if used well this is by far one of the most potentially lethal Eldar army lists out there at 1850 pts level.
Cheers
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Posted by: moc065
First off though, why only 1846pts to start with.... you could squeeze something into those last 4 points; no ?
Honestly, I didn't have any more Warlocks w/ spears. Remeber, it costs me about $40.00 to add another warlock that to my collection so in the end I decided that the points were no big deal. (lol)
Also understand that I have both played and faced this list and its its 1750 varient as well
Even though they are quite similar the Council over Scorpions is what really pushes this list up in power. I can utterly catch and break Nobz etc as their power fists mean nothing to me. The Scorpions had always done ok but inevitably lost many or all members to stuff like that. also, it's not safe for Yriel to "bomb" inside the scorp unit and yes, sometimes that is needed. lol
Lazarus.
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Score done... 8.5... (best score I gave any Elar list in 5th Ed btw); but again Player usage is a huge factor, so I considered a General such as Lazarus behind the helm in regard to the scoring system.
Cheers
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Well, as you've described it Lazarus I agree with you that this is one of those lists where you couldn't really change anything around without removing some of the balance elsewhere. However, I just want to point out that for Orks (which you've said you have troubles with sometimes), that a tri-flamer Storm Squad might be an idea. I'd suggest this instead of the normal Guardians, but you don't have the points. However, for the 2500 pts list when you add in the Fire Dragons, you may consider changing the Stormies you do have from Fusion Guns to Flamers. Other than that I don't really have much else to say. Good job, and good luck, but most of all:
Good Hunting,
-Stezerok
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I had problems with Orks when I was still trying to run a Hybrid list. Once I went full mech I've been crushing them pretty well becasue I engage on my terms.
Lazarus.
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Chaplain Swordwind Rating:
Durability: 2 of 2
When I originally math-hammered this, I came up with an estimated 1.5 out of 2, but considering all the tactics you use to preserve your forces (Reserves, dual Fortune, etc.) it earned the full 2 points. In your hands I see most people having significant trouble inflicting casualties against this army.
Flexibility: 2 of 2
My ONLY concern was the fact that you have only a single close combat unit, but considering that unit is to absurdly tough, its more or less the equivalent of 2 other close combat units. The way this list is put together I suspect that you wouldn't need any backup for the counil at this point limit anyway. When you do bump up to 2500 points, I agree with your choice of Striking Scorpions.
Lethality: 1.5 of 2
This list will bring the pain. However, it is geared heavily towards self-preservation, rather than the all-out destruction of the opponent. Units like the Defender Guardians and the Dire Avengers are clearly not intended for offensive operations, so the list is not quite as destructive as it could possibly be. I'm sure the damage output will be more than adequate for your purposes though.
Mobility: 1.5 out of 2
Mobility is a significant asset for this army. It might seem odd that this list does not receive full credit when everything is mounted in fast skimmers, but considering that the Seer Council needs to be in hand to hand to fufill their purpose, and the amount of points invested in that unit, 1.5 is what you end up with. If your Serpents had Star Engines, you'd definitely score the full two points, but that would require compromises elsewhere that would probably reduce the overall effectiveness of the list.
I am aware that Eldrad's Divination allows you to redeploy units, thus potentiall allowing your council to get where they are needed that much quicker; but I factor that particular ability into other parts of my evaluation, like Flexibility and Synergy.
Synergy: 2 of 2
The whole of this army is greater than the sum of its parts. Though you seem to have restricted yourself from using certain units in order to remain within your theme, I do not believe that has hurt this army in any way. As a whole, this list is incredible, and in your experience hands, I expect that most people will have a hell of a time finding a solution to it.
Total: 9 of 10
This is the highest rating I've ever given to an army. It just seems to have the right blend of everything, and when you factor in the amazing paint job on your models, your history of good sportsmanship, and your experience as a player, this really looks like the best army I've ever seen; a "sure" tournament winner (as sure as any army could be anyway).
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I'll be going with the first option at this time.... :)
Lazarus.
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Here is the rundown on how I would configure for 2500pts and I might well be taking this on July 11-12 if i can do that tournie... I may still run my Pure Saim-Hann list for that tournie; but it would be tougher to do well with it, as its very restricted for certain items.
HQ
(210) Eldrad
(155) Yriel
(311) 10 Warlocks w/ 3 embolden, 2 enhance, 1 destructor & 2 spears
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL shuriken cannons & spirit stones
Elite
(212) 10 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ Claw, stalker & shadowstrike
(145) Wave Serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
(145) 8 Fire dragons w/ Exarch w/ Dragon's breath & crack shot
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
Troops
(130) 10 Storm guardians w/ 2 flamers, warlock w/ destructor & spear
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(85) 10 Defender guardians w/ shuriken cannon
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(60) 5 Dire avengers
Heavy Support
(180) Falcon w/ EML, holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
2498pts, 16 Kill Points, 2 Scoring Units, and 64 Figures
I fully expect to face another very good Hybrid Eldar list, 3 Exercist SOB list, 3-4 Landraider lists, Drop Pods / Daemons, DE with Vect, and a wicked new IG list as those are the local favourites... Orks will be there I am sure as well; but I too have not had big issues with them in my last 10+ games vs them. Nidzilla might rear its ugle head; but I don't see it as a huge issue either.
Cheers
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HQ
(210) Eldrad
(155) Yriel
(311) 10 Warlocks w/ 3 embolden, 2 enhance, 1 destructor & 2 spears
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL shuriken cannons & spirit stones
Elite
(212) 10 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ Claw, stalker & shadowstrike
(145) Wave Serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
(145) 8 Fire dragons w/ Exarch w/ Dragon's breath & crack shot
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL Bright lances & spirit stones
Troops
(130) 10 Storm guardians w/ 2 flamers, warlock w/ destructor & spear
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(85) 10 Defender guardians w/ shuriken cannon
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL bright lances & spirit stones
(60) 5 Dire avengers
Heavy Support
(180) Falcon w/ EML, holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
(160) Fire prism w/ Holo field & spirit stones
2498pts, 16 Kill Points, 2 Scoring Units, and 64 Figures
1 extra Embolden in the council is never a bad thing.
Flamers instead of fusion guns on the stormies is a preference thing - I'll keep my fusion guns. If things go well I won't be getting out anyways.
I'll probably give this a spin vs. a wicked Black Templars 'Ard boyz list this weekend.
Lazarus.
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Review Complete. =)
I'll be going with the first option at this time.... :)
Lazarus.
Without having done a qualitative comparison, I agree with that choice. ;)
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I will join with my couple of cents as well :)
First thing: I think your list is GREAT Lazarus :), both the 1850 version and the 2500 version w/ scorps and 8 dragons.
Im am myself much inspired by your lists and enjoy reading (and re-reading) your battle reports. So thanx man ;)
There is one SMALL thing. I was puzzled that Moc could add 5 pts (embolden) to your list and still only be at 2498 pts. I couldnt figure out what else was changed.
So after double-checking your list (the 2500pts version 1, with scorps + 8 dragons) in armybuilder, im quite positive it only comes down to a total of 2493 pts.
So there is 7 pts left. I don't know quite what (if any) possibilites it gives you.
The obvious thing to consider - i guess- is adding 2 spears (though is costs CC attacks) or losing 1 spear & adding 1 destructor.
Besides this points-thing, i have a question/suggestion regarding your defender guardians.
The guestion isnt ONLY about a *possible* improvement to your list, but also about what you/others IN GENERAL think is best (i mean also if you dont want to change your base list, maybe because of the beautiful miniatures or for fluff/comp reasons).
I really think those defenders are the ONLY possible place for improvement in your list (either because they dont do (and shouldnt do) much and COULD be swapped for cheaper option, OR for more powerful & expensive option)
I am thinking along the lines of these possible options:
a) changing them to storm guardians with 2 flamers/fusion guns (+7pts :)!)
b) downgrading them to 5 avengers (saves 25pts). The leftover 32pts could then go into for example a BL for the council serpent (if u drop 1 spear) or into 2 extra fire dragons (or maybe something else).
c) consider moving 1 warlock (probably w/ spear+destructor) from the council into the warlock-less guardian squad. This could be done even if you keep the defenders, but would be more potent i feel if you change the defenders into stormies (either the triple-flamers or same as your first storm squad).
Personally i would go for option a+c. I think that squad WOULD add a decent amount of potency over your defenders (although i know they are mainly staying inside, but still...), and without really costing more than now :). EXCEPT (big one) that you would lose 1 warlock (and 1 spear & destructor) from the council.....questio n is if thats worth it or not.
If the defenders gets changed into another stormie squad like the one u have, it would also mean that you would get an additional unit that has nice duality, which could be very useful in a pinch.
No-matter what i would surely personally prefer changing the 10 defenders to stormies w/2 flamers (just for the extra 7pts). Because i think those 2 flamers+pistols will do more damage against enemies when the guardians DO disembark (probably most often against enemy unit that has been tank shocked or has charged one of your gravs - thus making good flamers targets). (Of course the stormies ARE also better in CC than the defenders)
Just a suggestion for thought though.
And, one other question. Your answer regarding the 3x5 avengers could be seen as implying that IF no comp/theme (and maybe available minis) went into consideration you WOULD in fact think that such 3x5 avengers could improve your list. Is that right? and would you maybe care to give your thoughts on the subject.
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I know you werent asking me but... The defender guardians are only 25 points more and they are way better, having two storm squads isn't an advantage at all because you need to both keep the unit cheap and not throw it away. the 10 defenders is the best value you can get out of a) 5 avengers b) stormies or c) the defenders. They are cheaper than the stormies, more powerful than the avengers and sensible enough to not get "wasted" by a stupid decision. You can't play eldar by saying your units are just going to do one thing, i.e. sit in a tank, 5 avengers in a serpent is dead weight and wasted points, there is a reason DAVU is only taken on falcon's and that is because they can't take 10 guardians and can be harder to kill than serpents making the scoring upgrade worthwile.
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Yeah i understand (and i agree). I also think that 5-man avenger squads doesnt generally cut it (outside of the DAVU falcon). Just wanted to hear any thougts on this.
The point is, though, that Lazarus HAS got 7pts left in his 2500pts list, which means the defenders CAN get upgraded to stormies "for FREE", and then my suggestion is to MOVE one warlock from the 12-man council into this stormguard squad (again a "free" change).
Guess my central point is that IMO the stormies are better value (with 2 special weapons for 92pts) than the defenders (for 85pts), though of course this too can be debated (but when there are 7 leftover pts for the "upgrade" i think its worthwhile).
I do think that your analysis of the question is spot on, though, Iram.
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Posted by: LordofMuck
First thing: I think your list is GREAT Lazarus , both the 1850 version and the 2500 version w/ scorps and 8 dragons.
Im am myself much inspired by your lists and enjoy reading (and re-reading) your battle reports. So thanx man
Thanks. :)
There is one SMALL thing. I was puzzled that Moc could add 5 pts (embolden) to your list and still only be at 2498 pts. I couldnt figure out what else was changed.
So after double-checking your list (the 2500pts version 1, with scorps + 8 dragons) in armybuilder, im quite positive it only comes down to a total of 2493 pts.
So there is 7 pts left. I don't know quite what (if any) possibilites it gives you.
Yes, I do have 7 points left over and honestly I haven't looked hard at doing the total list yet (still mulling over options). I could indeed replace the Defenders w/ the Storm guardians but it would mean that I have to purchase, convert & paint more miniatures and I'm not terribly keen on that idea. For the most part the models do indeed just sit in a tank and the defenders do it cheaply without resorting to another minimum sized Avenger unit. I would not in ANY circumstance take a warlock from the council to give to the other guardian unit. The council gets out and fights while the guardians usually do not - any more points there is usually wasted. I only keep the one warlock with the stormies for extra tank busting power (hence 2 fusion guns & spear).
The "best" upgrade for this list is likely that extra Embolden as it's nearly sure to be used. With wound allocation in 5th I often lose stuff that I don't want to lose and the council should be facing more resistance than normal. Of course, I could also drop a spear and afford another destructor but that doesn't appeal that much to me.
More to think about I guess. :)
Lazarus.
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This looks damn fine
How would you go about stripping this sort of list down to 1500?
thanks
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How would you go about stripping this sort of list down to 1500?
I wouldn't really want to....:(
If I had to play at 1500 I'd likely drop a serpent w/ the Defenders (230 pts)
and I could drop the council down to scorpions (saves 94 pts)
I'd also likely drop the warlock from the stormies (38 pts)
Gives me a few points left to spen elsewhere....not crazy about it though....
Lazarus.
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Now that we are at these questions.... :) Uhmm.. how would you change the list up to 2000 pts - which is what i play inside and outside of tournaments -
My own change of your list to 2K is to add 5 dragons in serpent (190pts) and remove the warlock from the stormies. I have then changed to stormies to 2xflamers.
But i wonder what you would want to do with 150pts extra?
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Now that we are at these questions.... Uhmm.. how would you change the list up to 2000 pts - which is what i play inside and outside of tournaments -
My own change of your list to 2K is to add 5 dragons in serpent (190pts) and remove the warlock from the stormies. I have then changed to stormies to 2xflamers.
But i wonder what you would want to do with 150pts extra?
The Dragons are not a bad idea.
One option I've actually used at 2,000 is a unit of Yo-Yo hawks (137) and an aditional destructor in the council. Worked pretty well and added a nice splash of colour to the list.
As to the dual flamers for the stormies - I'd almost be tempted to get out with them and that's not always a good idea. Units can usually be handled by my council (or Yriel splitting off) and I've got those fusion guns for helping to deal with more AV.....
I'm going to finalize my 'Ard Boyz list tomorrow for the event.
Lazarus.
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yeah nice list Laz. I ran a similar one recently with only 8 warlocks and the avengers are replaced with 6 dragons. It did quite well but there were some anxious moments when an auto cannon guard list (including a pair of hydras in cover) shot down my falcon and 2 serpents, but it still managed to pull a win. You should go great guns. Best of luck.
Ragey
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It did quite well but there were some anxious moments when an auto cannon guard list (including a pair of hydras in cover) shot down my falcon and 2 serpents, but it still managed to pull a win.
If I may ask, how did you manage to pull a win in such situation?
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I have a question ... why only one Destructor in the Seer Council? Is it for the points, or do you just find that CC works better than mass templates?
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I have a question ... why only one Destructor in the Seer Council? Is it for the points, or do you just find that CC works better than mass templates?
CC creates more destruction than destructors. ;)
The problem with lots of templates is that your opponent will remove models in a way to deny your charge and maybe countercharge you later on. This denies you additional attacks, armour ignoring wounds etc. Therefore choose pure CC awesomness...
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Pretty much. There are times where I'd like more destructors but the CC nearly always outweighs that. CC = moving which is always a good thing....
Lazarus.
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SeekingOne it was annihilation my seers serpent got pulled down right next to his gun line so they got into the combat and well against guard you can imagine, the dragons died badly, the first storm squad had 2 members that managed to hide behind terrain, and the second managed to survive in the serpent. The prisms also just stayed out the back and annihilated all from a very safe distance (thankfully guard are crap shots). So it ended up 5KP to 8. ;D