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Offline scotatheist

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 01:39:32 PM »
Wow Thanks for the replies guys, you advice is much appreciated.


Offline enlg

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 04:13:08 PM »
i watched a guy use D-cannon's once, 3 of them +2 wraithlords and he was beating down a tyranid carny heavy list. He shot down his zoanthropes with the cannons and also badly hurt a carnifex (which died after from other shooting). his list was very mobile, but had the D-cannons+2 gaurdian units. then as I recal he had wraithguard, the lords, farseer and maybe another unit, although it was in a small gave and a relatively small board, not to mention it was 4th edition. but they can be good.

they are a bit too defensive for my liking, but if you had them on a home objective, they could blow open rhinos, maybe kill dreadnoughts that deep struck, instakill crisis suits, but also they could get shot down. but if they were fortuned they could survive along with the help of some good target saturation.

against mobile armies d-cannons could be great, especially for killing nobz in mega armor or on bikes. if you really want to use them, you will just have to make a list that is focused on them.

you will have to have units moving forwards to not let the artillary target the cannons, and then have some units around it to not make it a delectable deep-strike+crush unit. any units that enter mid-range of your objective can then be eliminated.

Offline Neostrider

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 08:01:29 PM »
I like using them defensively (which is killer on a Capture game) by setting a Troop choice unit to hold the objective in cover and having the guns on the rear of that cover, guns outside and crew inside the cover.

This provides you the ability to move the artillery should you need without a dangerous terrain test, its as close as it can be to the rest of the board, covers the objective, and might give a cover save to the whole unit.  Covers saves aren't very clear with this sort of unit but since its listed BEFORE vehicles I'd say the gun models count a 1 so as long as you have a crew member for each gun it cover you should get the Sv.  It usually keeps the enemy from rushing into melee and letting you keep the hurt on from a range.  Close to a table edge and gaurdian unit you usually can stop Deep Strikers from hurting them.

Again, the worst limitation to them is not points or mobility.  its the stupid heavy slot and having EVERY choice we seem to have slid into it.  (Someone at GW:  "Is it big and effective?  put it in a heavy slot")

Offline Marlec

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2009, 11:25:50 PM »
Gutstikk made a good hammer/anvil list in this post:
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=192558.0

most people sees the support platforms (D-cannons especially) as defensive weapons... but when planning an army, every tactics has to be checked/tried... I didn't check the point costs, but I think the D-Cannons are one of the cheapest anvil we can make...

Marlec

Offline Abraxas

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2009, 05:00:29 PM »
I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.

Under artillery,The unit. page55 it states additional models added to the unit my fire the gun though independant characters can not .The warlock is an upgrade to the crew so can  ;)

Pump the brakes!

So a Worlock in a Defender squad can shoot the BL? You mean I've listened to people say, "don't take a BL cause it's wasted with a BS of 3," all this time... for nothing?!?!
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Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 05:04:24 PM »
Umm, no.  The codex says in the Guardian entry that only the Gun Crew may fire the heavy weapon platform.  The Heavy Support Batteries are something entirely different.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 05:04:38 PM »
Pump the brakes!

So a Worlock in a Defender squad can shoot the BL? You mean I've listened to people say, "don't take a BL cause it's wasted with a BS of 3," all this time... for nothing?!?!

Don't get carried away just yet.  Those rules are for artillery, i.e. they do not affect heavy weapon platforms in Guardian squads, only Support Weapons.
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Offline Neostrider

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 01:44:16 PM »
The subtle difference is in who the crew is.  The support weapon listing only has a crew, and so the warlock gets added to it.  This is supported by the rules entry under artillery.

The guardian squad is a regular infantry unit with a weapon that has 2 of the guardians upgraded to crew.  The wording in the entry is something to the effect of "2 members are upgraded to crew members" so the warlock is not explicitly added to the crew part of the unit.  Since its not an artillery unit we can't assume the above rule applies.

Offline enlg

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 05:23:42 PM »
hey sorry to add another question, but if you have a group of 3 vibrocannons+warlock+6 crew, and the warlock fire every vibro cannon? or just shoot one of them...I know its probably not plausible, but can this occur? or do you need to have 1 model only use its BS for 1 gun. Just thinking a line of BS4 guided gives a good chance of str7 pinning for not all that many points.

Offline Neostrider

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 07:15:03 PM »
Only 1 crew member can fire each gun.  In the case of no warlock, it doesn't really matter which one fires but when the warlock is present then he can choose to fire one of the guns.

Models that you don't designate as firing their guns may still fire their own hand held weapons I believe, so there is the possibility of a singing spear warlock opting to not fire the support weapons to throw the spear for example.  Don't forget those important shuriken catapult shots with your D-Cannons.  They may stop the inevitable charge.

Offline Shadow Slayer

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #30 on: December 1, 2009, 09:58:58 PM »
I feel like 5th ed made them a bit more appealing then they used to be due to the cover rules.

Personally, I've never been off put by their heavy support catagory.  There are enough choice units in the Fast Attack slot (Spiders and Spears) Where dropping a place in the heavy support section never seemed to really hurt as much as many think.

Also the way Falcon's have been brought down a notch in the new ed might have people looking elsewhere for their HS fix.

Platforms are good because they do one of two things, Be dirt cheap, or be powerful or annoying.

First lets get it out of the way, Vibrocannons are not the poster children they used to be.  But they still make good "disruption" choices that have decent range and can at the very least prevent that single railgun from shooting.

The D-cannon is now more useful then its ever been since 2nd ed, thanks to the fact that  deploying in table quarters will solve the issue about positioning it, While the running rules allow you to at least move it up the field in all other cases. 

But in my opinion, The Shadow Weaver takes the cake as beign the best choice.  Not because it does the most damage, but because it has great range, can be fired indirectly, and it is Cheap as dirt. 

I'm serious.  The cannon itself is less points then the two guardian's crewing it (if you use the point costs for standard guardians as a base.

If you have less then 100 points left floating around, want some ranged surpression fire, and a highly expendable unit, I find that the shadow weavers are definatly worth the points you spend for them.

Offline enlg

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #31 on: December 1, 2009, 11:41:43 PM »
personally I think that most people have not tried these choices due to their cost in money. They are $30 a piece, so that relatively cheap unit will be $90. And although war walkers cost the same, war walkers are plastic, come in the battleforce and also once came in a 3 for the price of 2 pack (which I bought one of).

there is little circulation with these guns, and sadly they will probably not be redone for a while.

Offline Shadow Slayer

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #32 on: December 2, 2009, 12:33:58 PM »
personally I think that most people have not tried these choices due to their cost in money. They are $30 a piece, so that relatively cheap unit will be $90. And although war walkers cost the same, war walkers are plastic, come in the battleforce and also once came in a 3 for the price of 2 pack (which I bought one of).

there is little circulation with these guns, and sadly they will probably not be redone for a while.

Very true.  But the fact that they are aging models also works to your advantage when you are trying to get them on the cheap.

I myself have never payed more then 15 bucks for the ones I have, and its more to do with patience and looking at "alternative" websites to do your shoping / trading for them.  They are made out of THICK pewter, so I've never bought one that hasn't already been in good condition even if its used.  And once you have 3, you can stop, as they might be good for a single heavy support slot, but definatly start taking away if your trying to feild like 6 or 9 of them.

I don't think it has to do so much with the cost, as the stigma for using them.  You see people play Wraithguard troops, and those are definatly not on the cheap side of the fense. 

Its just that they are static, and because everyone is so in love with mech eldar, the stigma is that if you can't move 12 inches a turn, or move and shoot something, then your useless in an eldar list.  But thats just not the case. 

Offline Abraxas

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #33 on: December 2, 2009, 04:55:37 PM »
Its just that they are static, and because everyone is so in love with mech eldar, the stigma is that if you can't move 12 inches a turn, or move and shoot something, then your useless in an eldar list.  But thats just not the case.

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Offline enlg

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #34 on: December 2, 2009, 06:55:56 PM »
no, just that since all of eldar's units are mobile (besides dark reapers and rangers) you are left to either not use the mobility of our troops and stay behind with the support weapons, or leave them to get ravaged by many fast threats. Even gaurdians' best ability is that they fire a heavy weapon on the move. Its not just mech eldar, its all eldar.

and the fact is, support weapons can reach up to 175pts for 6 crew+warlock+weapons. that could be 3 war walkers that fires 24 shots. and the 3 war walkers aren't as weak as those 7 t3 models (they aren't WEAK, but they can be shot down if focused on more easily)

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #35 on: December 2, 2009, 07:03:36 PM »
If in cover, and benefitting from fortune, the unit including the guns have the loveable rerollable 4+ cover save. It's much easier to get cover for the gun battery than any other vehicle type in the codex. 2/3 of the options ignore cover in most cases, or at least the most readily available types of cover.

24 scatterlaser shots is 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 kills to most enemy units. A shadow weaver battery is likely to do at least as much damage for much less cost. D-cannons will do a lot more damage, with range being the biggest drawback, since anything they touch is likely to get killed, and the removal of the cover save greatly increases the deadliness.

The only thing is, I don't think gun batteries can actually run, since the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model, which is the artillery piece itself.

Offline Kite66

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #36 on: December 2, 2009, 07:56:00 PM »
Do 3 support weapons (in a unit) fire like a barrage, ie after 1 template the others stick to it, or do they scatter on their own like a blast?
I'm thinking the foremer but I'm not sure with it being 3 different firing models in the unit.

Offline Ail-Shan

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Re: Eldar support weapons
« Reply #37 on: December 2, 2009, 08:32:08 PM »
it works like a multiple barrage (other than the vibro cannon).
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