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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #200 on: February 1, 2020, 05:19:14 PM »
I don’t, no.  I’ve never been.

Have Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand etc, been forced to accept US food standards?
For the most part, I think our standards are higher in Canada.  I know we (used to) outright refuse milk from the US because they didn't meet our standards.  That may have been loosened in recent years, but everything that is made in Canada is branded as such.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #201 on: February 1, 2020, 05:22:31 PM »
Have Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand etc, been forced to accept US food standards?

No. Mainly as in the instance of NZ we're the ones with the food. The US does like to stomp all over people with copyright law though. The UK is desperate and with little time, other countries not so.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #202 on: February 1, 2020, 05:25:33 PM »
Gibraltar is an issue that I raised during an academic conference at my university in 2017 when we held an event about Brexit.  It has long been a controversial topic, but Spain and UK did come close to achieving shared sovereignty during the Aznar and Blair administrations, but this idea did not come to fruition because the people of Gibraltar refused to back it in a referendum in 2002.  The irony is palpable because they voted 99% against shared sovereignty and 96% to remain in the EU.  From a trade and employment perspective, they would be much better off being part of Spain right now.  This is because that many Gibraltans work across the border in Spain or run businesses which require frictionless trade with Spain to be able to function properly, so Brexit is arguably even more problematic for them than it is for Northern Ireland, which is a point that I made during the aforementioned conference.

The territory was, of course, originally Spanish, so it can be argued that it is not a land grab, but rather an attempt to restore the territory to Spain.  The people may not like it, but Spanish governments of both the centre-left and centre-right will always make political capital out of Gibraltar because it is popular with voters.  The centre-left tends to be more amenable to compromise, although the shared sovereignty plan was drawn up with Aznar's centre-right government.  Spain's ultimate objective though is not really to take Gibraltar back.  The government would like to, but this is an unrealistic aim.  What Madrid is hoping to achieve is a set of concessions or conditions which will increase Spain's influence and/or running of the territory in some way in the short-term and potentially lead to further control in the long-term.

On the topic of food standards, US food standards are so very poor that the EU has strict conditions on the food that the US is allowed to export into the EU market.  I have close friends who live in the US and they regularly comment on the poor quality of the food that is sold relative to the food that they have eaten when visiting EU countries.  It is a serious cause for concern and I have signed many petitions on this issue alone.

The UK is in a very weak negotiating position.  Time is against this country and Trump is going to really put a lot of pressure on the UK government to accept his demands.  This creates a climate for hurried, and by association poor quality, decision and policy making, especially when you consider that the Conservatives have a strong majority, resulting in Parliament being unable to amend of block legislation.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #203 on: February 1, 2020, 05:53:11 PM »
So in short, it’s a cluster beslubber.  I read as much as I could in the run up to the vote and all this is what eventually swayed me to vote to stay.  Though every time Guy Verhofstadt opens his mouth I feel conflicted.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #204 on: February 1, 2020, 06:54:52 PM »
So in short, it’s a cluster beslubber.

It is worse than that.  These trade deals could end up being incredibly lengthy and leave the UK in limbo for quite some time.  Also, ignore all the comments from people arguing that we have left and we are doing okay.  The transition period means that very little has changed at this time, so the true impact of leaving is being masked.

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Though every time Guy Verhofstadt opens his mouth I feel conflicted.

Why?  Unlike a lot of our politicians he has been honest about the problems that the UK is going to face and has actually challenged Farage over his lies far more than some of our politicians and the media have done.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #205 on: February 1, 2020, 08:24:24 PM »
The transition period is till the end of the 2020 year? So progress has to be made swiftly. Trade deals that usually take years need to be made within less than one. While in a vulnerable condition. If only someone had warned about this previously...
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #206 on: February 1, 2020, 09:42:29 PM »
Ironically, one of Norway's biggest labor unions is trying to push Norway to leave the EEC, as they consider the EU to be too right-wing and anti-labor.

Kind of a funny juxtaposition form Farage and his ilk.

Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #207 on: February 2, 2020, 05:48:27 AM »
The transition period is till the end of the 2020 year? So progress has to be made swiftly. Trade deals that usually take years need to be made within less than one. While in a vulnerable condition. If only someone had warned about this previously...

Boris Johnson is adamant that the transition period will only last until the end of this year.  I cannot see how any sort of effective trade deal is going to be struck in such a short space of time.  It is both disturbing and disconcerting how the Prime Minister continues to dimiss any concerns raised by others and how the leave group labelled anyone who raised these issues during the campaign and before the leaving date as either 'remoaners' or 'doomsters and gloomsters'.

Ironically, one of Norway's biggest labor unions is trying to push Norway to leave the EEC, as they consider the EU to be too right-wing and anti-labor.

Kind of a funny juxtaposition form Farage and his ilk.

I think that you mean the EEA, as Norway's referendum to join the then EEC was held way back in 1972 ;).

On the subject of Norway though, this MP's take on the UK joining EFTA from 2018 is an interesting read.  It is made even more so by the fact that she is a Conservative MP.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #208 on: February 2, 2020, 10:31:32 AM »
Why?  Unlike a lot of our politicians he has been honest about the problems that the UK is going to face and has actually challenged Farage over his lies far more than some of our politicians and the media have done.

It’s not that which bothers me.  It’s his public demands for an EU with even more integration, more control to its institutions, with zero opt outs for any country (with presumably no way of legally leaving it either) along with demands for an EU army and talk of ‘empire building’ that bothers me.  It’s exactly that kind of talk that helped drive Britain out of the EU in the first place, and it shows a complete lack of self awareness or reflection with I think characterises the EU so much. 

He’s entitled to his opinion of course, but I’m sure that he’s just voicing what the EU hierarchy truly believe and will always work towards regardless.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2020, 10:55:34 AM by Calamity »

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #209 on: February 2, 2020, 10:54:09 AM »
The Treaty of Lisbon would have to be changed to remove Article 50.  Where have you read that he has said anything about empire building?  This is a nationlist concept which is being implicited promoted by the Brexiteers in this country, not European Federalists like Verhofstadt.  Also, you cannot guage how voters in different countries respond to different approaches to European integration based on the reactionms of UK voters.  Some countries and their electorates are more sceptical about further integration than others.  The best way to obtain information about public opinion towards the European Union is to look at Eurobarometer surveys, rather than to rely on media information.

As for the UK being driven out by federalist idea being proposed (not demanded) by one MEP, that's an overly simplistic analysis.  The federalists/Europeanists have tried previously to gain the upper hand in the debate about the EU's future, but have regularly ended up adopting a compromise position with the Atlanticists, mainly owing to the fact that Germany wants to maintain positive relations with the United States.  If anything, the UK leaving actually strengthens the hand of France, which has traditionally been the strongest Europeanist state (i.e. independence from NATO and a European Army), which further weakens the argument that the UK has left because of increasing federalism.

Finally, the point about opt outs only applies to new member states.  Denmark, for example, will continue to retain its opt outs and Ireland has opt outs from certain aspects of the Lisbon Treaty.  The UK, by leaving, has lost all its opt-outs and when it attempts to rejoin, it is very unlikely to get them back because the rules would not allow it.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2020, 11:53:38 AM by Irisado »
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #210 on: February 2, 2020, 12:31:51 PM »
Sorry I’m caught up in a thing at the moment.  I’ll give you a proper answer asap.

Also to be clear, I’m trying to make my criticism constructive.  I don’t think any of us will win out of this.  I just think the EU should take a good hard look at what it’s doing wrong and try to learn from it.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #211 on: February 2, 2020, 01:55:52 PM »
An alternative is the possibility that the EU did little wrong and instead a group of wealthy dysfunctional semi-adults attempted to climb their way to fame and further fortune while damning the rest of the population to a potential economic recession with no regard to the future consequences. The UK should take the time to look in the mirror as to what they've willingly done to themselves.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #212 on: February 2, 2020, 04:08:58 PM »
Also to be clear, I’m trying to make my criticism constructive.  I don’t think any of us will win out of this.  I just think the EU should take a good hard look at what it’s doing wrong and try to learn from it.

The UK will lose more than the EU is going to lose based on the economic forecasts.  The only doubt is the extent to which the UK is going to lose out.  This remains an unknown.  Given how accommodating the EU has been regarding granting extensions to successive governments over Brexit and in how its negotiators have conducted themselves in a highly professional manner when faced with some of the most fantasist demands ever made by a member state over its future relationship, I would argue that the UK has far more reflection to undertake than the EU does.

The EU has dedicated a lot of time to Brexit, which has also detracted from other very important issues, notably resolving the problems with the Dublin Regulation, the eurozone, and the behaviour of the Hungarian and Polish Governments.  One of the few silver linings to the UK's deparature is that it may now be possible for the other member states to address some of these issues and to move forward, but it will be challenging.  The EU is far from perfect, but EU leaders and institutions are not saying that it is perfect, rather their position is that many challenges that its member states face are best solved through the EU, rather than by going alone.

It would not have mattered what the EU had done in relation to the UK because there have been far too many individuals with loud voices who are opposed to it no matter what.  They are ideologically against its existence and everything that it stands for.  Farage, the majority of the press (especially Murdoch's newspapers), an increasing number of wealthy individuals (e.g. Aaron Banks), and much of the Conservative Party have all presented the EU in such a negative light simply because they do not like it.  Facts have no place in any of the arguments that they have presented and they have very much adopted the stance of saying whatever they want the truth to be as often as possible to make it seem as though it is true.  Even when their lies have been exposed, they have dismissed them in much the same way as Trump has over in the United States.  Many other EU countries also have a problem with populism at the moment, but few, if any of the populist far-right or populist far-left in other EU countries are advocating leaving the EU.  The UK has to take responsbility for its decision and the inevitable consequences.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2020, 04:11:30 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #213 on: February 2, 2020, 06:30:36 PM »
I think that you mean the EEA, as Norway's referendum to join the then EEC was held way back in 1972 ;).

On the subject of Norway though, this MP's take on the UK joining EFTA from 2018 is an interesting read.  It is made even more so by the fact that she is a Conservative MP.

Derp, yeah, we call it the EØS over here and my mind just grabbed the wrong English acronym.

The whole EU question in Norway has always been a landmine no one wants to step on. Ever since '94 , no real discussion on whether we should join or not has been brought up (at least not in a substantial manner). The EEA remains a compromise of sorts, but ever since the economic crises of '7 and onward, some of the more left-leaning parties have openly questioned the membership, citing what they view as EU's lower standards of labor (wage negotiation, employment law, health benefits, contract termination clauses, etc. etc.), and the common market is seen as major mechanism for social dumping.

While I'm quite on the left myself, I honestly have no idea what their alternative is supposed to be. I've heard talks of "the Swiss solution" but that seems like idle waffling for the most part.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread with these comparatively minor controversies compared to what's going on in the UK and US now. I've just always found the starkly different perspectives on the EU by its British (the Eu is a bureaucratic, leftie, over-regulated hellhole) and Norwegian (the EU is a cynically neoliberal, deregulated anti-worker hellhole) anti-EU movements to be fascinating.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #214 on: February 2, 2020, 09:15:46 PM »
Finally, the point about opt outs only applies to new member states.  Denmark, for example, will continue to retain its opt outs and Ireland has opt outs from certain aspects of the Lisbon Treaty. 

One rule for some, another rule for everyone else.. basically any new country that joins effectively relinquishes a significant portion of their countries sovereignty. The EU as a concept is still a work in progress and could look very different in as little as 10 years from now, kind of an insane thing to do. Your country should always have the option to pull out, especially if the people don't want it any more.


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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #215 on: February 2, 2020, 09:34:30 PM »
You're confusing opt-outs (we don't want these conditions) with pull outs (lets leave).
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #216 on: February 3, 2020, 05:31:13 AM »
One rule for some, another rule for everyone else..

I would imagine that is how some EU member states' leaders and some EU officials perceived the UK for quite some time ;).

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basically any new country that joins effectively relinquishes a significant portion of their countries sovereignty.

The correct term is pooling sovereignty.  It is very important to get this right, as otherwise it is misleading and makes it sound as though a state has been conquered in some form of armed conflict, which is inherently not the case.  By joining the EU, any member state knows which areas require sovereignty to be shared, so I do not see what the issue is.  Some countries, such as Norway and Switzerland, decided that this was not for them, most European countries have either joined or want to join.

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The EU as a concept is still a work in progress and could look very different in as little as 10 years from now, kind of an insane thing to do. Your country should always have the option to pull out, especially if the people don't want it any more.

The EU is not a concept.  In addition, most changes of the sort of magnitude that you are implying would require a change to the Treaty of Lisbon or a new Treaty.  I am unconvinced that this will happen within the next ten years, as there is little appetite for such change at the moment.  In addition, Article 50 is part of the Treaty of Lisbon, so it could not be easily removed.  As Rummy said though, and I agree with him, I think that you are confusing two separate points here.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #217 on: February 3, 2020, 05:41:34 AM »
You're confusing opt-outs (we don't want these conditions) with pull outs (lets leave).

Just to raise a quick point, Guy Verhofstadt wants all opt-outs as well as rebates, vetos and qualified majority voting phased out asap.  Basically even less power for individual states, as his solution for saving the EU.

Good luck with that.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #218 on: February 3, 2020, 02:43:08 PM »
The key word there is 'wants'.  Wanting something and obtaining something are far from the same thing when it comes to EU politics.  You keep envisaging the EU as a zero sum game, which is not how it works at all.  It operates on the basis of compromise and consensus and cannot be compared to the majoritarian UK Parliament in any way.

EU states have agreed to pool their sovereignty across an increasingly wide range of policy areas.  It is not as though this has happened against their will.  If anyone has an issue with that they need to take it up with their national government, not with the EU institutions or MEPs.

Could you please link me to the speech or policy paper where Guy Verhofstadt has been outlining these positions by the way?
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #219 on: February 3, 2020, 02:55:15 PM »
Sure.  The speech calling for an end to rebates and opt outs can be found on his Twitter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1222553258633441281

And here’s where he says that the current world order is one of empires (hinting that the EU should think in the same way):

Watch: Guy Verhofstadt on the world’s ?empires? | Coffee House

I read the speech in full elsewhere, which I’ll try to find for you. 

I also remember another one were he spoke of the EU needing to learn the ‘language of power’.  As in power projection...as in military might.  I’ll try to find that one too.

For the record, I actually do understand, even sympathise, were he’s coming from.  I just think that he’s going about it in a wrong and heavy handed manner. 



 


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