Topic: Space Wolves: Death of Deathwing?

[juliusb]

OK, I understand Codex Creep but Codex Theft is another thing altogether.  Sure my Dark Angels are less effective than Codex Marines but that's the price I have to pay for the Ravenwing and Deathwing.  No problem, I love my Deathwing and they're a fun army to play with.

Ravenwing is obsolete because I can build a better all-bike army with the standard codex and standard DA's just wear expensive robes to make up for their lack of special rules, I'll take C:SM please.  At least the White Scars have some good history behind them.

But now our fabled (if not a little restrictive and weak) 1st Company is under attack from the storied all-terminator army of the...  Space Wolves?!?!?!  Where did this come from?  Did the Space Wolves really need that little extra gem in their codex?  I just don't understand why they had to put the final nail into the DA?

I hate the fact that I feel the need to create a complaint thread about it but really GW?  33pts for a Terminator with a power weapon, who's a TROOP CHOICE?  I wish I had that option with my Deathwing!  Oh well, at least my squads come in easy-to-count quantities of 5 instead of that conveniently flexible 3-8.

All you Deathwing players know what I'm talking about...  Can you fill up that 200pt hole with a squad of 4?  Nope.  Can you add 1 more Terminator to fill that 43 pts gap?  Nope.  But Space Wolves can with their Troop Terminators!

Oh yeah, you don't have to waste points giving every model a damn Powerfist either!  You can give them all Storm Bolters and Powerweapons if you like!  That'd be nice wouldn't it?

I don't care that my Storm Shields only give me a 4++, and I really don't care if other Elite Terminators have better (more flexible) weapon options and squad sizes, but I do care that the entire point of my lovingly crafted army has been usurped.

What are they going to do for the next Marine Codex?  What other codexes can they rip the uniqueness from?  "Librarian Counsels?"  2-wound "Terminator Bikers?"

This is not about an old codex needing more competitive rules, this is about a codex having all it's unique points being replaced by better options!

Don't even get me started on Belial or the fact that our Terminators don't even have their own box yet!

[Sanctjud]

Ravenwing has a different playstyle than vanilla Bikers (ie White Scars).
Though DA have more expensive bikes, they have different special rules that make it a terror of its own.

Um...the SW codex is not out yet, and one should not over react to just rumors.

My 7 Cents.

[Atrotos]

A lot of GW stores have the codex for display purposes at this stage Sanctjud.

julius please don't be offended but I'm going to tell you what I tell every Dark Angels player. Keep your awesome models and your great background, accept that GW secretly hates you and just play with the rules from the new 'dex. All you have to do is rename things. Don't be ashamed, this is about survival.

You can have your cool 1st company theme, no one can take that away from you! Rules are mandatory but their explanations are totally up to you.

[Lord of Winter and War]

   I'm sure there is going to be major differences in the two lists. There will be things that Deathwing can do, that Space wolves cannot. I say, don't get too worried about it until the  Space Wolves book is out.
 
  The key thing to remember, is that deathwing in Dark Angels works really well with other elements of it's codex. Ravenwing+Deathwing is great. You cannot expect a list, that forces you to narrow your choices exclusively to only a handful of models is going to be as cared for, as the codex as a whole. As said, it is far too early to react this way, and these sort of reactions are very common when ever a new codex is released. It'll be fine, no one is going to phase out your beloved Deathwing and it's just as playable as it was before.

   If you don't like playing Deathwing, and would prefer to play space wolves, thats your own prerogative. If you do want to play deathwing, then be happy with what you have. I, with my Grey Knights envy many things that new codexs can do, and have. But I am happy with the rules I have and I make due. Nothing that is released affects the way I play the game, nor the army that I play. I also understand that I am playing my codex in the way it was not entirely designed to be played. I understand that Using the whole codex is best for 'competitiveness' and all that jazz, but I prefer to limit myself, like you do and play a specialized portion of the army. I have many rules that are obsolete, I have many units that are now overcosted and rules and wargear that are out of date. However, I like playing my army and that is that.

   I don't understand why it cannot be the same with you. Deathwing is a wonderfully romantic image of an army. Stick with it and don't worry about what others have, and just keep givin'er with your beloved Deathwing.

[juliusb]

A lot of GW stores have the codex for display purposes at this stage Sanctjud.

julius please don't be offended but I'm going to tell you what I tell every Dark Angels player. Keep your awesome models and your great background, accept that GW secretly hates you and just play with the rules from the new 'dex. All you have to do is rename things. Don't be ashamed, this is about survival.

You can have your cool 1st company theme, no one can take that away from you! Rules are mandatory but their explanations are totally up to you.

Thanks for the up-lifter, man.  Hahaha when I was reading the codex at GW today bemoaning the Death of my Deathwing I was joking that I'd switch to Chaos Space Marines:  Alpha Legion disguised as Deathwing pretending to be Space Wolves!

Honestly though, I've never been a power gamer and it's not that the rules are better, although I was admittedly griping about that too.  It's more about GW taking the last thing that made Dark Angels unique.  Besides the Ravenwing and the Deathwing there's just nothing interesting in the codex anymore.  Even our special charaters are pretty bland rules-wise with the exception of Sammael and Belial and now even those two have been copied (regarding their effect on the Force Org).

That's why I was joking about "Librarian Councils" (Seer Councils) and 2-wound "Terminator Bikers" (Nob Bikerz).  How would Eldar and Ork players like it if all their unique units had Space Marine mirrors?  What's worse is that those armies have many things that make them unique whereas Dark Angels only had the Deathwing...  and dresses.   

[2quiet]

How would Eldar and Ork players like it if all their unique units had Space Marine mirrors?

You mean like all bikes now being able to turbo boost (should be dark eldar only, or at least only jetbike only), being able to move and shoot at the same rate as skimmers (which are now quite overpriced), having the uniquness of the falcon reduced with Valkyries and Vendettas, or having the use of Eldrad criticised because he's over powered, when to retain the edge Eldar psychers should have over those of other armies it is required that he be that good...

Yeah, I don't meant to take away too much from your points about Death Wing. I agree with you. I really like individuality and uniqueness in the game, but I think all armies are really being homogenised and becoming less individual.

(Also, I havn't laid eyes on this mysterious new dex yet, so this post is with the assumption that you are correct in your assertions. I shall heed the warning presented and mind my opinion on this until I see the rules for myself).

[augustmanifesto]

i really agree. From what has leaked about the SW codex, it does go beyond the typical "codex creep." While DA get it worst, no doubt, from what I've read even vanilla marines are experiencing a touch of "codex theft" in that the new long fang rules will leave the wolves able to credibly outshout vanilla marines (let alone out-assault, out-terminator, out-character, and so on) with the only balancing factor being sternguard. (Lack of wolf heavy weapons in troops doesn't really factor in much because tactical squads are so often on the move that chances to use heavies are rare, unless you're playing gun line with TAC's which is almost always a waste).

[nedius]

We were discussing such matters down the pub just last night. Although not SW specific, the conversation was on how armies are being released over powered (to get people buying the new super units!), less points (to get people to buy MORE of the new super units!) and introducing new units (often inspired by equivalents in other armies - So there are more super units to buy more of!).

40k is fast approaching a point where codex-jumping (creep just isn't a strong enough word) and money spinning is going to damage the game. there are many tings I could discuss, but I'll stick to the OPs point.

One of GWs 'lets make things cooler' techniques seems to be to spread around special rules, even unit types. And so the OP is right, armies are getting less unique, and each codex is stealing rules that previously only belonged to one race. If this continues unceasingly, we'll all be playing the same army, just with different models... Hopefully, before that, they'll realise they risk loosing gamers and refresh things.

[Lazarus]

Gw is in a business to sell lots of models. I'm sure they'll sell plenty of Space Wolves.

Dark Agels was my very first army (back in the day) so I feel your pain somewhat...but I also remember the days of seeing 20 wolfguard terminators hitting the field....

Lazarus.

[Benis]

One of GWs 'lets make things cooler' techniques seems to be to spread around special rules, even unit types. And so the OP is right, armies are getting less unique, and each codex is stealing rules that previously only belonged to one race.

Problem is that they also invent new army specific rules which probably within an edition or two will become universal special rules to once again be spread around other armies, which will result in the need for more special rules to create army uniqueness and so the circle goes on. Personally I quite like the idea of the 3rd edition codices where only things of a truly different nature had any special rules...

Anyway, I can only agree with the OP, there is no fluff reason or game balance reason for allowing Space Wolves to field Terminators as troops. But Space Wolves have always been drenched in special rules, each one sillier than the next if you ask me.

[Lord Malwrack]

 

Hmmm.

We currently hate to play against Demons or the revised Imperial Guard because they are so overpowered compared Our 11-year-old Dark Eldar one. Now We'll have to add Space Wolves to that list...

[longshanks]

To be honest I wouldn't worry too much about it. When the new DA dex comes out we'll be flavour of the month again...!  lol.

If you can win a game with a deathwing army then your a pretty good general to begin with. If you can win with a underpowered Deathwing your a miracle worker and perhaps think of becoming the next messiah...lol.

If this dosen't console you then take solace in this little fact below:

Let the space pups have their Troop terminators. End of the day our primarch knocked theirs out cold.....lol

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Let the space pups have their Troop terminators. End of the day our primarch knocked theirs out cold.....lol

Quote for truth and for the lulz!

As for space wolves having terminators as troops.  good for them, they are realising what it is that makes the Dark Angels awesome as a chapter (not including the fluff) and they are just impersonating us.

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery or what ever the beslubber the saying is

[Gornon]

Let the Codex come out and be played a bit before you make a decision.  Points costs or any negatives are not usually listed in the rumors.  Often, things look powerful but when tried, turn out to be costly or inefficient. 

As an example, I recall the squeals of agony over AP 3 Hellguns.  Then people realized that A: Stormies are very expensive.  B. The Hellguns are still strength 3.  C. Cover reduces the effectiveness of those guns quite fast. 

As an example of things that look WTF awesome on paper, take the Battle Psykers.  A unit that can slam pie plates with d6 AP, or, even worse, shatter the moral of an enemy unit, forcing an almost auto-break!  It turns out that its only becomes very efficient for making Chaos Marines break and run, or uber-Knob units break and run.

Take a deep breath and wait for a little bit.  You might find that the codex isn't so bad and Dark Angels are unique in some ways.  Take for instance, the Sister's crown of being awesome at close range shooting with Flamers.  Now, we have Sternguard, Flamers, and Burna Boys.  Turns out, Sisters still come out ahead, as they are cheaper than Sternguard and Flamers, and have better leadership and save than Bruna's (not to mention a dedicated transport), and they score, and that's not counting a bunch of other nice tidbits.

As long as every other army can't mimic yours or your special units, I would not worry too much.  Overlaps are bound to happen, and often the mimics are not as good, like in my Sister example, Sisters are still the heavy weight champs of short range shootouts.  Eldar players like to whine about Valks.  A Valkyrie still can't compare to a Wave Serpent, and Veterans can't compare to Aspect Warriors.  Fire Dragons actually do a x3 Melta Veteran's job better, for less points!  Guard, overall, still can't compete with Eldar for speed.  One or two fast and armored skimmers in a list does not turn the Imperial Guard army into the Eldar.  Closer, yes, but close as in New York is closer to London than Moscow.

So, my advice to you is play a bit before making a decision on the Codex.  I can already point out that one advantage to the Dark Angels is that Belial is going to cost mcuh much less than the Wolfs, and that (I think) Space Wolf equipment will cost much more.  SS/TH termies are supposed to cost 70ish points!  So, you might have overall cheaper termies.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

Take a breather before posting.  Taking to an Internet forum in a ranting mood rarely results in anything good (the same applies to TV pundits).

The Space Wolves Codex is not out yet.  You are postulating about the Death Of Deathwing based on an incomplete, rumor-based information.  At least wait until the Codex is released- and you have thoroughly read it- before posting.  Maybe Wolf Wing will cost 78 points per furry, or maybe it won't exist at all.

Maybe it's a pure hoax and we can stop panicking.  Or, rant about Planet Strike advertising "now's your chance for an all-Terminator army!" as if Codex: Dark Angels didn't exist (a tragedy, to be sure).