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Author Topic: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )  (Read 10829 times)

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Offline Chaplain Swordwind

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2009, 10:39:11 AM »
Review Complete.  =)

I'll be going with the first option at this time....   :)

Lazarus.

Without having done a qualitative comparison, I agree with that choice.  ;)
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Offline LordofMuck

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2009, 08:09:02 AM »
I will join with my couple of cents as well  :)

First thing: I think your list is GREAT Lazarus  :), both the 1850 version and the 2500 version w/ scorps and 8 dragons.

Im am myself much inspired by your lists and enjoy reading (and re-reading) your battle reports. So thanx man  ;)

There is one SMALL thing. I was puzzled that Moc could add 5 pts (embolden) to your list and still only be at 2498 pts. I couldnt figure out what else was changed.

So after double-checking your list (the 2500pts version 1, with scorps + 8 dragons) in armybuilder, im quite positive it only comes down to a total of 2493 pts.

So there is 7 pts left.  I don't know quite what (if any) possibilites it gives you.
The obvious thing to consider - i guess- is adding 2 spears (though is costs CC attacks) or losing 1 spear & adding 1 destructor.

Besides this points-thing, i have a question/suggestion regarding your defender guardians.
The guestion isnt ONLY about a *possible* improvement to your list, but also about what you/others IN GENERAL think is best (i mean also if you dont want to change your base list, maybe because of the beautiful miniatures or for fluff/comp reasons).

I really think those defenders are the ONLY possible place for improvement in your list (either because they dont do (and shouldnt do) much and COULD be swapped for cheaper option, OR for more powerful & expensive option)

I am thinking along the lines of these possible options:
 
a) changing them to storm guardians with 2 flamers/fusion guns (+7pts  :)!)

b) downgrading them to 5 avengers (saves 25pts). The leftover 32pts could then go into for example a BL for the council serpent (if u drop 1 spear) or into 2 extra fire dragons (or maybe something else).

c) consider moving 1 warlock (probably w/ spear+destructor) from the council into the warlock-less guardian squad. This could be done even if you keep the defenders, but would be more potent i feel if you change the defenders into stormies (either the triple-flamers or same as your first storm squad).

Personally i would go for option a+c.  I think that squad WOULD add a decent amount of potency over your defenders (although i know they are mainly staying inside, but still...), and without really costing more than now  :). EXCEPT (big one) that you would lose 1 warlock (and 1 spear & destructor) from the council.....questio n is if thats worth it or not.
If the defenders gets changed into another stormie squad like the one u have, it would also mean that you would get an additional unit that has nice duality, which could be very useful in a pinch.

No-matter what i would surely personally prefer changing the 10 defenders to stormies w/2 flamers (just for the extra 7pts). Because i think those 2 flamers+pistols will do more damage against enemies when the guardians DO disembark (probably most often against enemy unit that has been tank shocked or has charged one of your gravs  - thus making good flamers targets). (Of course the stormies ARE also better in CC than the defenders)

Just a suggestion for thought though.

And, one other question. Your answer regarding the 3x5 avengers could be seen as implying that IF no comp/theme (and maybe available minis) went into consideration you WOULD in fact think that such 3x5 avengers could improve your list. Is that right? and would you maybe care to give your thoughts on the subject.



« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:14:22 AM by LordofMuck »

Offline Iram

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2009, 09:53:36 AM »
I know you werent asking me but... The defender guardians are only 25 points more and they are way better, having two storm squads isn't an advantage at all because you need to both keep the unit cheap and not throw it away. the 10 defenders is the best value you can get out of a) 5 avengers b) stormies or c) the defenders. They are cheaper than the stormies, more powerful than the avengers and sensible enough to not get "wasted" by a stupid decision. You can't play eldar by saying your units are just going to do one thing, i.e. sit in a tank, 5 avengers in a serpent is dead weight and wasted points, there is a reason DAVU is only taken on falcon's and that is because they can't take 10 guardians and can be harder to kill than serpents making the scoring upgrade worthwile.
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Offline LordofMuck

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2009, 10:01:30 AM »
Yeah i understand (and i agree). I also think that 5-man avenger squads doesnt generally cut it (outside of the DAVU falcon). Just wanted to hear any thougts on this.

The point is, though, that Lazarus HAS got 7pts left in his 2500pts list, which means the defenders CAN get upgraded to stormies "for FREE", and then my suggestion is to MOVE one warlock from the 12-man council into this stormguard squad (again a "free" change).

Guess my central point is that IMO the stormies are better value (with 2 special weapons for 92pts) than the defenders (for 85pts), though of course this too can be debated (but when there are 7 leftover pts for the "upgrade" i think its worthwhile).

I do think that your analysis of the question is spot on, though, Iram.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 10:04:26 AM by LordofMuck »

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2009, 01:14:51 PM »
Posted by: LordofMuck

Quote
First thing: I think your list is GREAT Lazarus  , both the 1850 version and the 2500 version w/ scorps and 8 dragons.
Im am myself much inspired by your lists and enjoy reading (and re-reading) your battle reports. So thanx man 


Thanks. :)

Quote
There is one SMALL thing. I was puzzled that Moc could add 5 pts (embolden) to your list and still only be at 2498 pts. I couldnt figure out what else was changed.
So after double-checking your list (the 2500pts version 1, with scorps + 8 dragons) in armybuilder, im quite positive it only comes down to a total of 2493 pts.
So there is 7 pts left.  I don't know quite what (if any) possibilites it gives you.

Yes, I do have 7 points left over and honestly I haven't looked hard at doing the total list yet (still mulling over options). I could indeed replace the Defenders w/ the Storm guardians but it would mean that I have to purchase, convert & paint more miniatures and I'm not terribly keen on that idea. For the most part the models do indeed just sit in a tank and the defenders do it cheaply without resorting to another minimum sized Avenger unit. I would not in ANY circumstance take a warlock from the council to give to the other guardian unit. The council gets out and fights while the guardians usually do not - any more points there is usually wasted. I only keep the one warlock with the stormies for extra tank busting power (hence 2 fusion guns & spear).


The "best" upgrade for this list is likely that extra Embolden as it's nearly sure to be used. With wound allocation in 5th I often lose stuff that I don't want to lose and the council should be facing more resistance than normal. Of course, I could also drop a spear and afford another destructor but that doesn't appeal that much to me.

More to think about I guess.   :)


Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline DracoStandard

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #25 on: July 5, 2009, 12:43:02 PM »
This looks damn fine

How would you go about stripping this sort of list down to 1500?

thanks

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #26 on: July 7, 2009, 07:07:04 AM »
Quote
How would you go about stripping this sort of list down to 1500?

I wouldn't really want to....:(

If I had to play at 1500 I'd likely drop a serpent w/ the Defenders (230 pts)
and I could drop the council down to scorpions (saves 94 pts)

I'd also likely drop the warlock from the stormies (38 pts)


Gives me a few points left to spen elsewhere....not crazy about it though....

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline LordofMuck

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #27 on: July 7, 2009, 12:22:06 PM »
Now that we are at these questions....  :) Uhmm.. how would you change the list up to 2000 pts - which is what i play inside and outside of tournaments -

My own change of your list to 2K is to add 5 dragons in serpent (190pts) and remove the warlock from the stormies. I have then changed to stormies to 2xflamers.

But i wonder what you would want to do with 150pts extra?

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #28 on: July 7, 2009, 01:15:00 PM »
Quote
Now that we are at these questions....   Uhmm.. how would you change the list up to 2000 pts - which is what i play inside and outside of tournaments -
My own change of your list to 2K is to add 5 dragons in serpent (190pts) and remove the warlock from the stormies. I have then changed to stormies to 2xflamers.
But i wonder what you would want to do with 150pts extra?


The Dragons are not a bad idea.

One option I've actually used at 2,000 is a unit of Yo-Yo hawks (137) and an aditional destructor in the council. Worked pretty well and added a nice splash of colour to the list.

As to the dual flamers for the stormies - I'd almost be tempted to get out with them and that's not always a good idea. Units can usually be handled by my council (or Yriel splitting off) and I've got those fusion guns for helping to deal with more AV.....

I'm going to finalize my 'Ard Boyz list tomorrow for the event.


Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Ragey

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #29 on: July 7, 2009, 08:42:24 PM »
yeah nice list Laz. I ran a similar one recently with only 8 warlocks and the avengers are replaced with 6 dragons. It did quite well but there were some anxious moments when an auto cannon guard list (including a pair of hydras in cover) shot down my falcon and 2 serpents, but it still managed to pull a win.  You should go great guns. Best of luck.

Ragey
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #30 on: July 8, 2009, 04:08:49 AM »
It did quite well but there were some anxious moments when an auto cannon guard list (including a pair of hydras in cover) shot down my falcon and 2 serpents, but it still managed to pull a win. 
If I may ask, how did you manage to pull a win in such situation?
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Offline neverXmore

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #31 on: July 8, 2009, 07:01:12 AM »
I have a question ... why only one Destructor in the Seer Council? Is it for the points, or do you just find that CC works better than mass templates?

So sad but true.
I don't want to seem rude but if I wanted to take part in talking about why the eldar codex needs to be better I'd read pretty much any thread in the Eldar forum.

Offline Kaminari

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #32 on: July 8, 2009, 07:22:46 AM »
I have a question ... why only one Destructor in the Seer Council? Is it for the points, or do you just find that CC works better than mass templates?
CC creates more destruction than destructors.  ;)
The problem with lots of templates is that your opponent will remove models in a way to deny your charge and maybe countercharge you later on. This denies you additional attacks, armour ignoring wounds etc. Therefore choose pure CC awesomness...

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #33 on: July 8, 2009, 07:31:54 AM »
Pretty much. There are times where I'd like more destructors but the CC nearly always outweighs that. CC = moving which is always a good thing....

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Ragey

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Re: Top 1,850 Eldar list ( Corsair Mech / reserve )
« Reply #34 on: July 8, 2009, 07:43:42 PM »
SeekingOne it was annihilation my seers serpent got pulled down right next to his gun line so they got into the combat and well against guard you can imagine, the dragons died badly, the first storm squad had 2 members that managed to hide behind terrain, and the second managed to survive in the serpent. The prisms also just stayed out the back and annihilated all from a very safe distance (thankfully guard are crap shots). So it ended up 5KP to 8.  ;D
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