What is your question exactly?
Welcome on-board to the eldar train 8)
Let me first correct you.
Jetbike mostly is Saim Ham
Simple question, how much do you know about the game? That will shape what can do aswell.
OK so Jetbike and wraith. Defenetly a good base if you think about tournaments performance. It's a really good list for heavy fire power because that's mostly what these two unit brings to the table. They will be a good start for an army if you want to go for a kinda tournament build. The biggest problem you will have with such a build will be flexibility, especially because you will be low on command points.
If I could give you one advice with the first unit to buy for a new army. Take something you like. This units because it's you first buy is probably going to follow you for your whole gaming time. So from my opinion select something you like. For the pure beginner at least, that's my advice.
Well mate glad you chose eldar as your first army still it's a great army.
OH yeah I suggest you buy the codex if you are sure you want to play eldar read through it find things you like a built your army around that.
Ok, so if you're liking Jetbikes, it sounds as though Saim-Hann is the Craftworld for you. It's a good choice (although all of the Craftworlds on offer are at least competitive to some degree).
Next up, you need to let us know whether you want to play to win at all costs, whether it's more important that your army resembles the background (fluff), whether you just want to paint something and for it to look cool.
The good news is that the Eldar range of models and units supports all of that very well.
If you look to create a Saim-Hann host, then you're looking at a lot of Windrider Jetbikes, Shining Spears and units mounted in Wave Serpents as a starting point. It's a manoeuvrable army and can hit hard whilst avoiding the bulk of return fire.
Whichever way you go, you will find good support from the forum members. Welcome to the board.
I want to win at all costs, and look cool. But mostly winning.
Thanks for the advice!
Welcome to the Eldar!I will stick to CWE for now. BTW, what does TAC WAAC mean?
Lots of good points Grizzlykin brought up - I'll also add in how much do you want to stick with just CWE (Craft World Eldar). Harlies and Dark Eldar (I refuse to call them Drewcary or whatever the new name is) both have some great Bike units.
If you are wanting a TAC WAAC style list, I think blending the codex's really offers a lot of power. Not to say that you can't win with just one code, but it definitely gives more options.
I want to win at all costs, and look cool. But mostly winning.
Thanks for the advice!
Ok good then we got a place to start then :)
Just an early reminder before we get into the meat of the answer. as good as your list might be, 2 things will heavily weight on your gameplay no matter what. 1 Your strategie defenetly impact if you win, no question asked about that. 2 Luck got to be on your side aswell, it's game played with dice and card, therefore luck can be a big deciding factor in a win.
Also if you do not win immediatly, do not get upset and keep trying for a bit, you need to get used to the game mechanics your army and plenty of other things :) Let's get back on topic now.
I'm not really the guy you need to ask for pure competitive list, neither is it for jetbike as I'm more of a aspect warrior + tank kind of guy, plus I play for the fun of the game rather than the absolute win so my list are geared in that direction with what ever unit I like at the moment. BUT you will find plenty of very competitive and experienced player in this forum, just wait for them, they smell the newby (don't take it abdly please), they will come !
Next up let me ask you a few other questions :
-How experienced are you in wargaming. Did you play other tabletop games of the same spirit, warmachine, x-wing or what not?
-How experienced are you with modeling and painting? Did you do other kind of things similar to this before? Or is it your first venture in the domaine. Do you pratice some kind of art on the side maybe that could be used as a foundation for your next step?
-It's a question I have to ask, are you more interested in the gaming and winning aspect or the modeling and painting one, so far I feel like it's more towards the gaming and winning that you lean but just in case let me ask.
-An other question I have to ask, sadly, how deep is your pocket. Because what ever you wish to do this is an expensive hobby. A really expensive one, therefore you really need to be sure where you want to go before you play. (This is a facultive question it's just so that we can direct you toward a proper way of buying you minis based on that, if you feel uncomfortable answering that one, you are totally free to not do it :)).
-Do you have a local shop, or a club close to you that involve themselves in wargaming? 40k in particular? That can be a great source of inspiration and motivation.
-Do you intend to stick to the existing painting scheme? Or do you wish to create your own for your army.
That's a few informations that can be usefull to know where to guide you :D
If these informations are not used by me they will be used by some other forum member to guide you 8)
Grizzly out.
welcome to the board. as been stated by most everybody, Eldar is a specialized Army. now I play mostly Saim Hann. Jetbikes are fantastic when taken with the right support. Crimson hunters, fire prisms and Shining Spears for starters. Depending on points value of games I will add in banshees, dire avengers or scorpions in a wave serpent. And if points left over, vypers. If you use the fluff for your army, then you'll want it created with all grav units.
You can also put 5 wraith guard in a wave serpent more points but worth it.
Farseer skyrunner is a great HQ but an Autarch skyrunner with a nova lance is a great choice too. Warlock skyrunner conclave for that extra psychic punch is great to bolster with.
With the many different ways to play pointy ears, it's all gonna come down to your play style.
Paint scheme, that's part of the hobby, paint them the way you want.
http://flic.kr/p/27RGJZn (http://flic.kr/p/27RGJZn)
Here's mine.
Welcome to the Eldar!I will stick to CWE for now. BTW, what does TAC WAAC mean?
Lots of good points Grizzlykin brought up - I'll also add in how much do you want to stick with just CWE (Craft World Eldar). Harlies and Dark Eldar (I refuse to call them Drewcary or whatever the new name is) both have some great Bike units.
If you are wanting a TAC WAAC style list, I think blending the codex's really offers a lot of power. Not to say that you can't win with just one code, but it definitely gives more options.
Welcome to the Eldar!I will stick to CWE for now. BTW, what does TAC WAAC mean?
Lots of good points Grizzlykin brought up - I'll also add in how much do you want to stick with just CWE (Craft World Eldar). Harlies and Dark Eldar (I refuse to call them Drewcary or whatever the new name is) both have some great Bike units.
If you are wanting a TAC WAAC style list, I think blending the codex's really offers a lot of power. Not to say that you can't win with just one code, but it definitely gives more options.
TAC = Take all Comers - means your list is balacned to try and take on anything an opponent can bring...
WAAC = Win at all costs - this is the hyper competitive looking for the best synergy and rules to exploit.
As for sticking to CWE, they are very very good.
Wanting to focus on speed is good too. I personally like speed, and even on foot eldar are significantly faster than other foot armies. Their vehicles not being open topped hinders some of that speed, but not too much so.
If you are wanting to go towards bikes, vipers, wind riders, and shinning spears are all good. Spears are amazing. I would run a squad of at least 6 of those bad boys.
Autuarch on a bike with a spear and banshee mask and fusion gun is probably one of the scariest things we can field. I like to give mine the shimmerplue relic for -1 to hit him too, just to really mess people up.
Shooting vs Close Combat - how do you feel on those aspects?
I don't recall the old getting started box - what all did it have other than bikes?
Wraithguard with D-Scythes are considered good, but not competitive. They have a strong limitation on range and require a lot of support to be effective, as many Eldar units do.
Wraithguard especially with D-scythes are really point heavy, but hit really hard. To put this in perspective, that one unit in a transport is probably 1/3 to half your army in ponts or Power Level.
The balance comes when they get out of the transport, most infantry weapons will have little trouble tacking them out, thanks to the sheer volume they can unload. Medium to Heavy weapons will trash them fairly quickly too.
They are simply too slow walking, so you'll never catch what you want to waste, they'll just get shot off the table.
The other thing that balances it out, is it makes target priority fairly easy, if they can kill the wave, they can generally just out manouver you so the wraith dont get to do anything. Having 1/3 of your army do nothing is a big problem. So you have to work out a way to deliver the wrait's before they can do that.
For 8th edition, I highly recommend you have atleast 3 pieces of line of sight blocking terrain on the board.
I'm not sure why this topic was locked, as nobody on the Staff locked it, so I'm unlocking it. Carry on everyone.
Hey End I've actually played a combination of Wraithguard and Jetbikes many times throughout the edition and did not find it to be over powered at all. Wraithguard are an expensive unit, that has to get very close to do damage so there is a high amount of risk involved as your opponent will get ample opportunity to try and disable their Wave Serpent as they move in for the attack. That being said they have fantastic offense and have very good defense for heavy infantry but have a number of drawbacks that balance them out.So would you say it was a high risk, high reward thing with Dread’s suggestion, (5 wraith guard in a wave serpent). I may try your suggestion though.
To start with I'd get a trio of 3 units of 3 man Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers. 2x units of Wraithguard (one with Cannons, One D-Scythes) and put them both in Wave Serpents. I'd get a Farseer and Spirit Seer as the core of your army. That gives you a good combo of tough armored vehicles, excellent close range firepower, mobile long range fire power and very healthy psychic support.
I'd then work on getting some troops to get you up to battalion strength so you can have a lot of Command Points and then take a look at the Eldar flyers both of which are excellent.
If I may just suggest one thing, do consider doing a presentation thread you two new guy's :D help us integrate you in ^^
OK onto the topic again Endez, I highly advise you test painting one of your guy. It's part of the hobby so I suggest you give it a shot and try it out.
List wise. I'm gonna branch away from Cavalier advice as I'm thinking lower size army compare to him here and fitting in the budget you gave us.
Concidering what's in the box. My recommendation for an extra buy would be shining spears or an extra team of jetbikes.
I assume with such a choice, you are aiming for roughly 500pts. Which is a good place to start. Therefore concidering the pricing of the unit in that box. We are looking at an around 400points (with upgrade and system) that makes for a point gap of roughly a 100 points.
If you do decide to go for this box it's main features is mobility. You don't want to be losing that when adding a new unit for now, so everything on foot is out of the question.
If you do want an army that can do shoot stuff and cc stuff, Shining spears are a good option. From really close they can do shooting, and then charge. There weapon is efficient against meaty hard to kill target but don't particularly have a lot of firepower. So you might struggle against horde like army but the rest of your army could kinda deal with that. One of the down fall of such a unit aswell is the low model count. So it's very much an elite style of unit. Lucky for you these are among the most resilient unit in the eldar codex. But in the long run, if you like the performance of the shining spear I highly suggest you get a few more of them to make the unit a bit more durable.
The other option would be more bikes (and maybe a skyrunner warlock). This would force you to forgo fighting phase which as a strategie makes perfect sens but yeah that's just how you want it. You do forgo unit variety aswell if you choose this option.
But from a pure result point of view, I do believe shining spears works best in a minimum of 5 man units as you want enough bodies to get the time to get a cross the board without getting killed. Which could be a good enough reason to go for bike.
From my point of view these are probably you best option for your budget.
Up to you to decide what's next.
You can even go a totally different route being taking swooping hawks or spyder maybe :D. Find your groove, find your footing find your best solution is all I can suggest :D Buy what you want and like is still my best advice.
Side note: My friends that are playing it use Tau, Harlequins and Orks. RT plays as Scion IIRC.
The question about the presentation isn't about how long you've been playing but just about saying how you appeared in the hobby, where are you from these kind of simple things, and it is in no way mandatory :)
Hi EndEz!
I have a word of warning for you: if you really want to win as many games as possible, you should keep in mind that Saim-Hann in terms of rules is the least competitive Craftworld of all 5. If you want to play Saim-Hann competitively you pretty much have to mass Shining Spears (and by massing I mean something at least about 3 units of 6 or 2 units of 9). The CWE codex supports other strong builds and technically you can use any of those builds with Saim-Hann craftworld - it's just that the Saim-Hann rules won't be helping you much.
Anyway, when building an army, ideally you need to make sure that you have at least the following three bases covered:
1) Anti-tank: a good army should be able to destroy heavy multi-wound targets like vehicles or monsters. I'd say your anti-tank is ok if your army can reliably destroy at least one heavy tank/monster per shooting phase.
2) Anti-infantry: a good army should also be able to efficiently grind through dozens of cheap 1-wound infantry models. I'd say your anti-infantry is ok if your army can reliably kill at least about 20 to 30 light infantry models per shooting phase.
3) Command points: a good army should start with a healthy amount of Command points, because you need them to use Stratagems and Stratagems can make a world of difference in many tight situations. I'd say you need at least 8 CP in games up to 1750 points and at least 9-10 CP above that.
| Units |
| Dire Avengers x2 |
| Windriders |
| Farseer Skyrunner |
| Wave Serpent |
| Models Per Unit |
| 5 |
| 3 |
| 1 |
| 1 |
| Loadout |
| Power glaive and shimmer shield, Shurikin catupalt x4 |
| Shurikin cannon x3 |
| Twin Shuriken Cannon and witchblade |
| 2 Bright Lances, 1 Shurikan Cannon |
Now, with that in mind, here's a rough evaluation of units in the codex in terms of their practical efficiency.
1. Flexible/Multi-purpose/Support units
Good/Excellent:
Farseers, Spiritseers, Warlocks, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers (exarch should have a Tempest Launcher), Wave Serpents, Hemlock Wraithfighters
Average (which means not too powerful but still playable):
Autarchs, Wraithguard with D-scythes, maybe Wraithblades, Fire Prisms (only if you take at least TWO of them to use the "Linked Fire" stratagem, preferably three), Wraithlords (only if taken as Iyanden!).
2. Specialized anti-infantry units
Good/Excellent:
Defender Guardians, Swooping Hawks
Average:
Dire Avengers, Windriders with scatter lasers (only if taken as Saim-Hann!)
3. Specialized anti-tank units
Good/Excellent:
Crimson Hunters
Average:
Fire Dragons
Please note that I didn't evaluate any named characters - some of them aren't bad, but using them is really a matter of personal taste.
Apart from that, basically, any units not listed above are either mediocre or bad - which means that you'll basically weaken your army by taking them.
Also please note that units listed in the first section ("1. Flexible/Multi-purpose/Support units") are there because they can do reasonably well in both anti-infantry and anti-tank areas, while characters listed there are good at assisting the rest of the army in dealing with all kinds of targets.
Hope this helps, good luck with your first battles :)
P.S.
If you don't mind me asking, does Ramadan prohibit from visiting other people's homes, or from playing games...?
I chose Saim-Hann mainly because of the Jetbikes, but I could change it. What would be the most competitive then?
The grand total is about 420 points IIRC. You can tell me what’s wrong with it, what’s good etc.I wouldn't bother with powerglaive&shimmershield combo on Avengers as it hardly makes much difference. In order for the 5+ Invulnerable save to come into play they have to be hit with a weapon with AP -2 or better. Trick is, such weapons are usually expensive heavy weapons which your opponent is not likely to waste on your Avengers, so they most likely will be shot at with weapons either with no AP or with AP -1, against which they still roll 5+ armour. Avenger Exarch is more useful with dual shuriken catapults.
For now though, the anti-tank is the WS and the Windriders. The Windriders will try to attack from all sides and the WS will attack and take as much damage as possible.It's a very weak anti-tank, but I guess it will have to do. Make sure you give your Farseer the "Doom" power and cast it onto a vehicle you want to destroy.
The anti-infantry will be the Farseer Skyrunner (using Horrify and Restrain to stop the infantry moving as much and to make them all flee) and the DA to shoot them down.
It doesn’t prohibit me from either, it’s just to walk to his, it takes about 30 minutes, and since we rarely get a lot of sleep in the night (there’s a prayer which lasts from 11pm to about 1, and there’s also waking up in the middle of the night to eat), I am most tired and it would be almost impossible to get to his, and my parents are usually busy reading the Qur’an or sleeping so I don’t want to make them drive me to his since I don’t want to disturb them, if you get what I mean.I totally get what you mean, thanks!
To me, the fire prism is a great choice. I love mine. It has great long range choices in shooting. CTM, SS are a must and worth the points. I also always upgrade to a shur.cannon. Running 2 of them and a crimson hunter for anti-tank is a great combo.
I have a tournament coming next weekend. I'll post my list for you when I get my tweaks done on it. It is a 2000 pt list.
Gratz on the win and what sounded like some fun games!
Fire Prism's are good - I love them. However, I feel like they almost have to be run in units of 2 if not 3!
Eldar have some pretty good anti-armor options.
In keeping with you jet-bike feel, may I suggest an Autuarch on a bike? Fusion gun, Lance, banshee mask.... that guy is absolutely hated by my opponents. While he won't always nuke a tank a turn, he can do some serious damage and be a huge annoyance to boot.
Other good options are Crimson Hunters, and, to a lesser extent, shinning spears vs light vehicles. There are quite a number of options really, but i'd suggest you stay away from Vipers - not that they are bad per-se, just over costed for what they do.
What is a CTM and SS? I’m guessing it’s a crystal targeting matrix and a spirit stone but IDK.
I’m thinking of dropping the jet-bikes because they’ve been somewhat useless, and Dire Avengers have so far, been somewhat better than them, and I didn’t really have to use them. I will probably keep the Skyrunners, as they are fast and strong, with their powers so I may add some more. But I will check the Autuarch and I will try to get 2 Fire-Prisms.
Base Jet-bikes are an anti-infantry unit, use them from the webway to get a big hit in on turn2 then if need be finish of the squad they were fight with long ranged fire support, just becareful where you bring them in, as they can get shot up rather easily. Given your current list, use your Dire Avengers and these to focus fire on a unit :)
I rarely let my Skyrunner’s go by themselves, and they always stood together, when they could, mostly for the Psykic skills’ range.
The Autarch skyrunner is good, but its not a good idea to let him run free, which is what will happen if he is the only thing in close combat. You are best off to pair him up with Spears.
Fire-prisms... if you can try proxying them and crimson hunters before you drop the $$, personally I find CH do a better job as anti-tank and they are similar points, but the CH's are harder to shoot, so tend to stay in the game longer before degrading or being blown up.
I wouldn't bother with a warlock, they are just too squishy for their points and can be taken out by snipers too easily. Free up some of your points and swap in a spiritseer to hang out with whatever squad in the Wave, more wounds and full smite :)
Base Jet-bikes are an anti-infantry unit, use them from the webway to get a big hit in on turn2...
Just asking, when you mean from the webway, do you mean take them out of reserve? I do use them for focus firing btw, I found that they are worse when trying to fight more than one, than when they are all firing on one person.
What do you mean by proxying? BTW, I went and checked and my army, which I will post in a separate reply to this, is £246.65 from GW, and £108.52 from EBay.
I found that he was one of the best in the army, when he’s defended by others, and none of my friends have snipers. I have been looking into spiritseer’s though.
I really need to know how to get pictures or an actual table or something. This takes so long to do.
I really need to know how to get pictures or an actual table or something. This takes so long to do.
I’ve never had to fight alone (like one unit/model by themselves) but I will definitely look into the stratagem, is it called Webway Strike?
Base Jet-bikes are an anti-infantry unit, use them from the webway to get a big hit in on turn2...
Just asking, when you mean from the webway, do you mean take them out of reserve? I do use them for focus firing btw, I found that they are worse when trying to fight more than one, than when they are all firing on one person.
There is a stratagem you can use to put them in reserve, then on Turn 2 you can place them anywhere on the board 9+ inches away from the enemy.
Previous edition your entire unit had to fire at the same target, so when older player say focus fire, it is normally meaning multiple units all shooting into the same thing.
Some units out there do a solid job of trashing a single target on their own, like Necron Immortals, they are also resilient enough that even if the Immortal don't wipe out their target, they can probably live through the return fire.
Eldar are generally speaking too fragile to do that, so when you need to look for ways your units can work together. As an example, you may move your wave serpent flat out on turn 1 to get deep into enemy lines, then turn 2 the Dire avengers pop out of the wave and the wind riders will arrive (Deep striking from webway) near them. Then both units fire into the same enemy unit to wipe it off the table or at least cause massive casualties causing a moral check.
I’m planning of switching my own Jetbikes for Rangers, but I will probably be proxying a lot.
What do you mean by proxying? BTW, I went and checked and my army, which I will post in a separate reply to this, is £246.65 from GW, and £108.52 from EBay.
I found that he was one of the best in the army, when he’s defended by others, and none of my friends have snipers. I have been looking into spiritseer’s though.
It can be difficult to find things that will fit your army and play style and given the amount of money involved, people are generally fine with putting something on the table that is roughly the same size to represent a given unit in friendly games. So you might play a wave serpent as a Fire prism for a couple of games to get a feel for it.
Tourney's will generally not let you do this, but in a group of friends, its perfectly valid, as they will get to test out units in the same way as well. Then if you like it you can drop money on it. It is also not unheard of for group of friend to just have a test day at some ones place, where they proxy things using stuff that is vaguely the same size like a tissue box, can of coke, the little green plastic men, etc
Snipers can target characters as long as they have line of sight. Just something to be aware of if someone expands their army or if you start having friendly games against random people.
I really need to know how to get pictures or an actual table or something. This takes so long to do.
The button between the "Tt" and the Hash (#) will put in a table, but it can be easier to just type it on one line rather than coding a table in.
EG:
1 x Autarch skyrunner - Power Sword, Twin Shuriken Catapult
5 x Dire Avengers - Power Glaive and shimmer shield, shuriken catapult
5 x Dire Avengers - Power Glaive and shimmer shield, shuriken catapult
There are lots of ways to write up a list, but people seem to use some variation of the formatting below:
HQ - 227 <point total for the group rather than listing points for each units>
1 x Autarch - List upgrades if any
1 x Eldard
Troops 295
10 x Guardians - Shuriken Cannon
10 x Guardians - Shuriken Cannon
10 x Guardians - Bright Lance
| Units | |Models Per Unit | |Sub Total | | Loadout | |Grand Total | |
| Autarch Skyrunner | | 1 | | | | Power Sword, Twin Shuriken Catapult | | 109 | |
| Warlock Skyrunner | | 1 | | | | Shuriken Pistol, witchblade, twin shuriken catapult | | 70 | |
| Dire Avengers x2 | | 5 | | | | Power Glaive and shimmer shield, shuriken catapult x4 | | 104 | |
| Wave Serpent | | 1 | | | | 2 Bright Lances, 1 Shuriken Cannon | | 157 | |
| Farseer Skyrunner | | 1 | | | | Twin Shuriken Cannon and witchblade | | 147 | |
| Windriders | | 3 | | | | Shuriken Cannon x3 | | 84 | |
| Fire Prism x2 | | 2 | | | | Prism Cannon Lance, Twin Shuriken catapult | | 315 | |
| Crimson Hunter | | 1 | | | | 2 Bright Lances, 1 Pulse Laser | | 160 |