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Author Topic: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.  (Read 11313 times)

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Offline Gerald_Tremblay

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Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« on: August 30, 2012, 04:07:09 PM »
Is it just me or the two armies in the boxed set are complitely unbalanced?

Dark Angels gets
1 Captain with power weapon and bolt pistol
1 Libririan
5 Terminators with assault cannon and 1 chain fist
10 Marines with plasma rifle and plasma Cannon
3 bikes with plasma rifle
total: something like 740pts

Chaos gets:
1 Chaos champion with power weapon and plasma pistol
20 cultist that are probably guardsmen equivalent with 1 heavy stubber and 1 flamer
6 chosen with 4 special CC weapons
1 Chaos dreadnought
total: something like 525pts

maybe there is a mission book and DA doesn't get all the unit in the book at the same time, otherwise it's look simply unbalanced

am i the only one who thinks its weird?
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Offline Boss Ard'Ragger

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 04:23:49 PM »
It Def looks that way on the surface.  Maybe the battles are set up to be balanced on the table.  Only Sat will tell whenthe boxes are opened and the critiques start.   :o
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Offline Shadowbreed

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 05:20:52 PM »
Black reach was also unbalanced, so yep assume so.

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 05:21:17 PM »
The last two have been unbalanced points-wise, I see no reason for this to be different

The marines in the last one had about 150ish points on the Orks, it was about the same in the marines favour vs the 'nids in the previous version
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Offline Log

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2012, 05:53:51 PM »
I've always heard that it is so the shop manager can happily lose to a young new kid. Even better when the kid gets to win with the good guys, making him want to buy the game and beat all of his friends with his mad skills

Offline Lorizael

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 05:58:36 PM »
It's purely rule of cool and having great looking models in the kit. The missions that are in the box will probably balance it out, plus normally the units aren't given their special rules in the basic quick reference guide- doesn't matter much to the chaos side, but DA lose combat tactics, combat squads, litanies of hate e tc.

Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 07:49:38 PM »
Black reach was actually quite balanced even though the marines had more points. If the dreadnought had an assault cannon and heavy flamer it may well have been more dangerous, similarly the captain and tactical sarge's weapons where less than optimal. There is more to balance with two set forces than the points cost.

Whereas the dark angels will probably find the chaos dread to be something of a handful! But not using everything would fix balance issues and far from being a cunning trick is more likely to be demonstrating more units types and variations.
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Offline Benis

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 08:15:47 PM »
Whereas the dark angels will probably find the chaos dread to be something of a handful!

Unless something drastic happens to the Dreadnought's (or whatever its name is) armour value all that plasma ought to take care of it, besides from the look of it it is carrying a multi-melta which is also less than optimal against the Dark Angels force. ;)

Given that it comes down to amount of models in the start set the side with the high costing ones will usually be better off pointswise, given Space Marines' cost compared to most other forces and that so far no start set has included Scouts it isn't really surprising that the scale tips slightly in Space Marines' favour. Shouldn't be a problem though since, as stated, it will most likely be sorted out by mission and lack of special rules. No big deal but it would have been nice to get an extra 100 - 200 pts Cultists of course.

Offline Shadowbreed

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 09:43:49 PM »
Black reach was about as far from balanced as it could be....

Out of the 20 matches total that I both saw and played, played by both noobs and vets alike, the marines won 18 times..


Doesn't matter much though, it's a starter set, so mostly just to get people used to the game, it'll be similar in dark vengeance, but that's ok

Offline ranger_scout

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #9 on: September 2, 2012, 11:13:18 PM »
I did the maths today using similar models and Dark angels are about 400pts more then the chaos.  I have also find the mission not overly balanced and the load out on dark angels optimal for their tasks.  While the Chaos forces are mismatched weapons and amour and have little effective weapons.  Just the tac squad and the 2 heros of the dark angels would be near par in points but as we know they are not the only ones in the box.

For this matter I always expected the point differences and it has been there since all the new starter sets I have seen and played.  But this point difference is nearly double!

Just my thoughts on this and math to confirm.

Offline skoops6

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #10 on: September 3, 2012, 03:14:18 AM »
You have to remember that this is a marketing tool, it is in no way designed to have 2 competitive armies. it is designed to allow some noob kid to beat a seasoned player, so that they go winge to their parents to buy it for them. its genius really, and most younger players i see nowadays have fallen for it
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Offline Lorizael

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #11 on: September 3, 2012, 07:59:56 AM »
You have to remember that this is a marketing tool, it is in no way designed to have 2 competitive armies. it is designed to allow some noob kid to beat a seasoned player, so that they go winge to their parents to buy it for them. its genius really, and most younger players i see nowadays have fallen for it

Rubbish! What if a newbie having his first go chooses to use the Chaos Marines?
Demo games that staff run have nothing to do with the rules or points values- they're a way of demonstrating the game and how it runs in a fun "cinematic" way.

The models in the set are there to look cool and be unique within that particular army's line.

As for points values:
Quote
Captain - 120
Relic blade, combi-weapon

Librarian - 100

Terminators - 235
Assault cannon, chain fist

Ravenwing - 105
plasma gun

Tactical squad - 200
plasma pistol, plasma gun, plasma cannon

Total - 760

Lord - 120
Power weapon, plasma pistol

Helbrute - 100
multi-melta

Chosen - 213
Lightning claws, 2 power weapons, power fist

Cultists - 55

Cultists - 55

Total - 543

I used vanilla marines as the DV box doesn't list any of the DA special rules plus DA codex is very out of date and over pointed.
Guessed at cultists based on IG points.
Helbrute using dreadnought points costs.

The points aren't that different (certainly not 400!!!). And consider that the chosen rules in DV have an extra Attack each as well which likely means higher points when the chaos dex appears.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2012, 11:51:15 AM by Lorizael »

Offline Benis

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #12 on: September 3, 2012, 10:23:53 AM »
Those are some cheap Terminators, Lorizael! :P

By my count the Dark Angels end up at about 750 pts while the Chaos are around 550 pts so there clearly is a difference but at the same time it isn't really something major.


Offline Alienscar

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #13 on: September 3, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
It's funny the question of balance in the starter set occurs every time a new set is introduced. Personally I don't see balance as an issue. Dark Vengeance is a lot about teaching people new to 40K how to play. Indeed as it says in White Dwarf there is a section of the included booklet that is designed to be as similar as possible to a Games Workshop introductory game. Also considering the missions given is balance an issue anyway? The first two missions are solo missions. Missions 3 sees a combat squad ambushed by the Cultists and mission 4 sees the Libby pitched against an increasing Chaos force (cultists, cultists, chosen) to see if he can survive until turn 4 when the Deathwing arrive. Is any of that balanced?
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Offline wper34

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #14 on: September 3, 2012, 11:07:25 AM »
Those are some cheap Terminators, Lorizael! :P

LOL! Yeah, here I thought Dark Angels would have some perks with their Termies, but very cheap cost is most likely not one of the such possibilities... ::)

But regardless, we all probably know a trend that starter boxes have always been unbalanced in some way.

Although I think comparing them right now may not be worthwhile to be concerned about, given that both codices are likely to be out sometimes soon in the future. Who knows if DA Ravenwing would go down in costs to 30 pts per bike with other special rules compared to SM bikers?

Besides, there seem to be no special rules for any of the DA and Chaos units presented in the box alone apart from just unit stats, weps, and equipments...

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Offline Lorizael

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #15 on: September 3, 2012, 11:52:20 AM »
Oops! Have now corrected!
Terminators should probably cost more now that they don't care about power swords :)

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2012, 08:05:04 AM »
They are lot's of fun though, these starter sets. When Battle for Macragge came out it was only when playing those missions that I wasn't just playing Crush, Kill, Demolish! Can't wait to get my grubby mitts on Dark Vengeance, love that Helbrute :)

Also, having closely observed my local GW staff, they seem to just advance in a straight line during intro games regardless of what force they use, so points imbalance is probably not for that purpose.
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Offline Brother Arkos

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2012, 12:16:11 PM »
I was wondering about the equality of the set as well. I got the limited edition one with the chaplain and was wondering if the following would be even forces to play against someone...

Interrogator Chap
Captain
Tactical Squad
Terminator Squad

vs...

Chaos Lord
Librarian
Chosen
Helbrute
Cultists
Bikes
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 12:18:02 PM by Roma89 »

Offline Nemo vas Varya

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2012, 01:14:43 PM »
Put the Captain in the Termie squad, and the Chap in the Tactical Squad and you have an all fearless force.... but giving the Chaos the bikes I think tips it in their favor... That is a lot of cultists to kill with psyker powers being thrown against you, then a tactical squad on top of that... I'd stick the Chaos Lord in the Chosen squad to tarpit your Termies for a few turns, then move the cultists to flamer your tactical aiming at your plasma, while the bikes ride around to do the same, and the Helbrute supported by the Liberian charges head on. In otherwords, I don't think the marines will have enough to deal with all of the options your opponent would have.
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Offline Brother Arkos

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Re: Regarding Dark Vengeance and the balance of both forces.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2012, 05:57:38 PM »
Put the Captain in the Termie squad, and the Chap in the Tactical Squad and you have an all fearless force.... but giving the Chaos the bikes I think tips it in their favor... That is a lot of cultists to kill with psyker powers being thrown against you, then a tactical squad on top of that... I'd stick the Chaos Lord in the Chosen squad to tarpit your Termies for a few turns, then move the cultists to flamer your tactical aiming at your plasma, while the bikes ride around to do the same, and the Helbrute supported by the Liberian charges head on. In otherwords, I don't think the marines will have enough to deal with all of the options your opponent would have.

So you think just giving them the "fallen" librarian would even things up enough?  I feel like the bikes tips the favor no matter what side they're on but wondering what you guys think.

 


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