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Author Topic: Vehicle durability in 6th edition  (Read 11920 times)

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2012, 09:53:18 AM »
Vehicles were always able to get 3+ cover saves in 5th, just the chances were so rare.
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2012, 10:06:37 AM »
True, it's just now that if you are willing to lug an Aegis line around, you can pretty much guarantee that cover every game.

I've watched lots of games devolve to shooting each other from their fortifications.
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Offline wper34

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2012, 10:09:52 AM »
With this new edition, I can already see the rise of parking tanks & artillery... Which is really nothing new when being compared to how some played their mech armies.

In my area, I had seen a Guard player who likes to play a 'Car Park' Guard army completed with Manticores for support. It was not exactly fun for some opponents from what I saw.

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Offline Nemo vas Varya

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »
Car park is mechanically the strongest place for an armored list. Note: NOT A MECH LIST. An armored list, armored core, or vanilla codex, will have dedicated a lot of resources to its tanks. In 6th, without touching forgeworld, and using Space Marines as allies, I can field 6 unsquadroned Russes, or 18 squadroned, plus some predator tanks. My infantry in a list like this becomes a squad of tactical marines, and either two vet squads, a platoon and vet squad, or two platoons. Likely I am going to go with 2 vet squads, stuff them in Chimeras, and then hide them, while putting my CCS in a Chimera, emptying it out and sticking the marines in it, also hiding it. Then I will pound away at you, using the hidden chimeras to respond to assault forces reaching my tank line of doom. (Probably have hellhounds, valks, and or sentinels providing light support to the tanks as well.) Then on the last turn, my squishy infantry zooms out for control points.

Moving a tank line like that reduces its strength, because set up right, you can keep just about everything in cover with another tank.
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Offline wper34

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2012, 03:09:25 PM »
Car park is mechanically the strongest place for an armored list. Note: NOT A MECH LIST. An armored list, armored core, or vanilla codex, will have dedicated a lot of resources to its tanks. In 6th, without touching forgeworld, and using Space Marines as allies, I can field 6 unsquadroned Russes, or 18 squadroned, plus some predator tanks. My infantry in a list like this becomes a squad of tactical marines, and either two vet squads, a platoon and vet squad, or two platoons. Likely I am going to go with 2 vet squads, stuff them in Chimeras, and then hide them, while putting my CCS in a Chimera, emptying it out and sticking the marines in it, also hiding it. Then I will pound away at you, using the hidden chimeras to respond to assault forces reaching my tank line of doom. (Probably have hellhounds, valks, and or sentinels providing light support to the tanks as well.) Then on the last turn, my squishy infantry zooms out for control points.

Moving a tank line like that reduces its strength, because set up right, you can keep just about everything in cover with another tank.

I don't ever recall that allies (even Battle Brothers) can embark in friendly transports... Better double check with the rulebook? (Page. 112)

Unless you are thinking of Independent Characters joining an IG infantry unit before embarking for which I am not entirely too sure about how it will work out. :-\

=======================================

About the 'Car Park' thing, I would have thought that it is purely just a name for strategy based on an army design compromising of many vehicles. The gamer play it defensively at first by sticking all of his vehicles (regardless of whatever types of vehicles they are) to his deployment zone and then zoom in around the last few turns. So technically, such application is not exclusive to an armoured list but does extend itself to a mech list. Elements of powerful artillery are optional in this context.

Besides, chimeras are generally classified as 'Light Tanks' by IG standard/many players due to the mighty Multi-laser that can hurt many things (barring AV13 and above), sport medium front AV, and come at a fairly cheap pts cost.


Back in 5th Ed though, it was not easy to destroy all of the chimeras in a mech army, because glancing hits cannot destroy the vehicle outright and LOS blocking from many transports adopting a certain formation. (the 'Car Park' in this case) As a result, it was really quite an abusive list when adopting such strategy with the addition of offensive firepower from Leman Russes, Manticores, and other artillery.

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Offline Benis

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2012, 10:46:18 PM »
With this new edition, I can already see the rise of parking tanks & artillery... Which is really nothing new when being compared to how some played their mech armies.

In what ways are car park lists better in this edition than it previously was? Compared to 5th edition car park suffers from vehicles being more manageable to put down due to lower cover saves and glancing hits. Groups of vehicles are much more vulnerable to blasts since it is full strength no matter where it lands. Units charge further, can make charges against multiple units easier and hit better so close combat can be quite mean against vehicle groups not to mention that it is more difficult protecting vehicles by surrounding them with infantry due to wound allocation and focus fire. A lot of units in general are faster so being static in your deployment zone doesn't mean you are safe for as long as you used to and reserves come in much easier so deep striking units is also an earlier threat.

The only positive change I can think of is increased performance reliability and that squadrons are slightly better but at the same time they are no longer immune to the lesser results on the damage table so weaker vehicles will likely suffer a bit from that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think vehicles are in any great trouble in this edition, in fact I think they are quite well balanced for once, but I see little encouragement to play more car park in this edition than in the previous.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 10:47:46 PM by Benis »

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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2012, 06:07:33 AM »
In 6th, without touching forgeworld, and using Space Marines as allies, I can field 6 unsquadroned Russes, or 18 squadroned, plus some predator tanks. My infantry in a list like this becomes a squad of tactical marines, and either two vet squads, a platoon and vet squad, or two platoons.

It's an impressive list of stuff but you're surely talking about 2500 points region, where cramming huge armies onto standard 6x4 tables with no terrain is hardly a tactical game, normally players talking about 'alpha strike' to convince people it takes skill to try and get first turn and then shoot their guns. Your example is almost akin to apocalypse really.

In more competitive gaming environments heavy gun line lists will probably find things harder, playing with a sensible amount of terrain to stop every objective being in LOS of both armies makes a difference for example. While a squadron of three leman russ looks impressive it's generally going to be overkill and thus inefficient against many targets.
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Re: Vehicle durability in 6th edition
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2012, 12:29:36 PM »
In 6th, without touching forgeworld, and using Space Marines as allies, I can field 6 unsquadroned Russes, or 18 squadroned, plus some predator tanks. My infantry in a list like this becomes a squad of tactical marines, and either two vet squads, a platoon and vet squad, or two platoons.

It's an impressive list of stuff but you're surely talking about 2500 points region, where cramming huge armies onto standard 6x4 tables with no terrain is hardly a tactical game, normally players talking about 'alpha strike' to convince people it takes skill to try and get first turn and then shoot their guns. Your example is almost akin to apocalypse really.

In more competitive gaming environments heavy gun line lists will probably find things harder, playing with a sensible amount of terrain to stop every objective being in LOS of both armies makes a difference for example. While a squadron of three leman russ looks impressive it's generally going to be overkill and thus inefficient against many targets.

I was saying I could, as an example. I prefer a far more balanced gunline, which by the way in a competitive environment is doing just fine. Since 6th edition, I've lost once: Armies played: Grey Knight 4 times, this is where my one loss was, Tyranid once, Orks twice, Guard Once, SM Vanilla once, Blood Angels six times. If through my Eldar list, there are a little more. This is not me tooted my horn, merely preparing the grounds for my next statement.

Anyone who thinks there is no skill in setting up a heavy hitting gunline is quite frankly a little out of touch. Yes first turn is important for such an army, and if I get first turn, stuff goes REALLY well for my army, however anyone who has played a list like this knows that:

A: You can not depend on going first.
B: More so in 5th, then 6th, you can not depend on having anyone to shoot at on turn 1.
C: You will every so often have to play a game where capturing objectives is required.

No good good line is truly static, it has mobile elements that will be utilized to funnel forces to more desirable fire lines. It has flexibility and layered plans. The advice I always give to new guard players: Don't panic and stay flexible. The don't panic is obvious, the stay flexible is not so much. For example, Hymirl, you looked at that tank heavy list and assumed there was only one viable tactic. I don't get turn one with that list... so since I know this in deployment, I deploy two lines of tanks with my infantry in the middle, and make sure no tanks LOS is blocked completely. I then do a simple line advance into my enemy, or if they are assaulting, let them come at me. At the last possible moment, hoping for good luck on lumbering behemoth, and depending on Chimeras and predators, tank shock the enemy line, scattering it, and breaking an attack. Hellhounds open fire to continue to ruin the days of the enemy line, as my second tank line had moved forward to no shield my footsloggers, who are now firing into your guys as well.

As long as you see a Leman Russ as just a big gun, you will never understand how a Leman Russ works.

Does the new fragility of vehicles make the tactic above worse? A little.. in my opinion it makes it fair.

In the end, I like a more mixed balanced list though because of the whole flexibility thing.
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