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Author Topic: Warhammer 40K to hit chart  (Read 16283 times)

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Offline myles

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #20 on: August 9, 2011, 02:07:59 AM »
I'm not so sure comparisons with reality should be the principle argument against a change since there're no such thing as daemons and space marines. It's a fantasy game not historical/modern, so its goals are slightly different; like watching an action film rather than a war documentary.

I'd imagine Lelith gracefully somersaulting over a burning Chimera through a storm of laser fire to landing perfectly amongst a squad of confused Guardsman should end in a stylishly choreographed moment of one-sided slaughter. Having her shiv a couple of Guardsmen before getting a rifle butt in the kidneys and then getting kicked and stomped on by a circle of angry soldiers may be more realistic but that's not what 40k heroes are for.

That's certainly one way of looking at it, but it's not the only one, and really, that's the perspective that is looking for powerful heroes to, perhaps not totally dominate, but to strongly influence the game.

On the other hand, other players would like the scenario that you just described quite a bit. A powerful fighter is, despite their own prowess, cornered and outnumbered and after killing many of their own number, is brought down by a horde of enemy troops. (Heck, it's practically the entire idea behind the tyranids!) It's still heroic, but it doesn't feel ridiculous. Lelith herself killing a several guardsmen at once is one thing, her killing off a whole platoon another.

Now on the other hand, if Lelith somersaults over that burning wreck and slices apart the guardsmen, the rest of whom are occupied by her bodyguard of wyches, that's pretty reasonable. Background-wise she wouldn't be stupid enough to be running around a battlefield by herself, the tabletop reflects this. She very probably would be the dramatic focus of the conflict, with other wyches perhaps merely preventing some uncultured swine from shooting her in the back rather than stealing her prey, but they would be there, preventing harm.

The rules reflect this as well, characters are harder to surround and bring down when they are with some sort of bodyguard, there are fewer models swinging at them. The relative 'ease' that you see models with lower WS hitting higher WS models with accounts for the fact that, most of the time, there are many more low WS models. (After all, when do you see the avatar lose to just three or four space marines, even if they can hit him a third of the time?)



« Last Edit: August 9, 2011, 02:09:51 AM by myles »
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Offline Brutoni

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #21 on: August 9, 2011, 03:25:59 AM »
Wow, away for a day and this gets 20 replies.... Didn't quite expect that. Now before I reply with a more measured response I do feel the need to reply to one post in particular.

No no no! This is all wrong, the whole point is that you can bring down a heroic creature by weight of numbers!

Don't be fooled by cartoons, it's not that hard to land a blow on someone. Even in Kung Fu movies (where things are highly stylized) most of the fighting involves blocking blows rather than dodging them outright. The 40k to-hit chart reflects this, even against a DE Wych Succubus, when there are ten of you and you're leaping out from behind rocks and bushes, you're going to land some blows; even if they could dodge all of someone's punches, with that many someones, there's nowhere to dodge to. Or in the case of the Avatar, yes it possesses the martial skill of a god, but it's a giant metal statue! Do you really think a full platoon of guardsmen would be unable to land more than a handful of blows? Ridiculous!

Also, don't forget that close combat takes into account more than just fists. There are grenades, point-blank shooting, and a whole gamut of things that skills in hand-to-hand combat would not protect you against.

Plus, the other stats involved in CC cover a lot of the issues and occurrences that the detractors in this thread are thinking about. Yes, a wych would be able to dodge many of her opponent's blows... and look, she has a 4++ save that represents what? Oh yeah! Likewise, an Avatar probably could walk through a full platoon of IG (as long as they didn't have a bunch of JOs with fists ;)) because even though the crush of bodies would mean that the Guardsmen could land some blows, they still have, what, like a 5% chance to wound after to-wounds and saves?




Khaine and IanC covered it pretty well, I think. The current system is fine unless you want the game to be based mostly around incredibly powerful hero units. Which I certainly don't, they're already powerful enough, if you ask me. If you think it's not "realistic" enough, then it's more likely that you're just not being imaginative enough about what's actually happening in CC than that there's a flaw in the basic mechanic.

Have you studied kung fu? Or boxing? Maybe Aikedo or Karate? Even something like fencing would highlight the point I am about to make.

In real life the hardest possible thing is to land a solid "hit" on a person. Blocking, dodging, redirecting a blow is always easier than taking a hit and moving on...

I say this with extensive experience of 2 decades studying karate. As well as years practicing many other sports like fencing, shooting, boxing, aikedo, kendo and bo-jitsue (Though not all at once I hasten to add  :o).

Yes in a fight you will "eventually" be hit, but a drunken fool isn't going to hit me with 1 out of every 2 strikes... or even 1 out of every 3.... He will miss with most of his attacks because contray to your opinion moving away from an oponent is the most EFFICIENT and effective way to counter an attack. You waste no energy, they waste striking energy. You can resposition yourself, you don't have to rely on matching your strength against their strength... If you err on the side of caution it also means a misjudgement doesn't end up with a fist plowed into your face.

Anyways... I didn't consider real life because 40K was a game. What I considered was the math. Primarily what bothers me isn't not being able to hit on a 2+ BUT not being able to have a high enough WS to force people hitting you on a 6+.

THe current system actually makes combat MORE brutal because it always comes down to weight of numbers... Incubi, Paladin and such units can ALL be countered by an equal number of points. I mean a unit of Paladins costing 500 points has every chance of losing to 100 Guardsmen. Or an equal amount of orks... Because they are being hit on 4+ despite having a good increase in WS.

Instead then the current system encourages blindly charging forwards to get into combat to, as another poster here said, "Kill things because thats the fun part". When you speak to GW about any of this you get an uninterested response even if you are being polite and genuinely engaging... All they say is "It makes the game epic".

How does 2 armies running forward pell mell into combat where numbers and dice are more telling than any quality troop make the game in anyway "epic"? It just means everything is off the silly small tables they play on by turn 4. (which again favours CC and making the game as short as humanly possible).

Finally to represent High Elves, or Wyches, or other Highly skilled Assault troops they then have to give them ward saves, or special rules... Which makes the game more complicated and so harder to balance... In effect that proves me point... The WS table is broken.

EDIT:

The WS table wouldn't have to work like the to wound table... Really it's quite simple.

Same WS: hitting on 4's.
1 Higher WS: Hitting on 4's, being hit on 5's
2 Higher WS: Hitting on 3's, being hit on 5's
3 Higher WS: Hitting on 3's, being hit on 6's
4 Higher WS: Hitting on 2's, being hit on 6's

Not being funny that would mean even a WS3 trooper would need to be attacked by models with WS7... Of which there are precious few around.

However units like Incubi, Paladins etc would finally have a little bit more of a chance. Note you could easily reverse the table forumla so you started to hit quicker instead of being harder to hit... However that would make combats shorter and thus keep the game favouring assault.

Thats another note... Assault really should be done like in LotR with only 1 phase due to both sides striking.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2011, 03:31:45 AM by Brutoni »

Offline Omnichron

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #22 on: August 9, 2011, 06:54:06 AM »

Yes in a fight you will "eventually" be hit, but a drunken fool isn't going to hit me with 1 out of every 2 strikes... or even 1 out of every 3.... He will miss with most of his attacks because contray to your opinion moving away from an oponent is the most EFFICIENT and effective way to counter an attack. You waste no energy, they waste striking energy. You can resposition yourself, you don't have to rely on matching your strength against their strength... If you err on the side of caution it also means a misjudgement doesn't end up with a fist plowed into your face.

And if there was 10 drunken fools sorrounding you and attacking you at the same time, would you still not be touched by any attacks?

If you see it logically and in real life, very few would ever be so good in combat that they would survive forever. You have examples of extraordinary men and women through history who have been great warriors/fighter, but most of them has been defeated in some fight sooner or later (Usually later as they got known for their combat prowess).

If we go all the way into the scifi and fantasy which we actually play in this game, you see that they have implemented part of that logic (Getting hits). The skill in close combat is represented in more ways than just the WS. It's initiative... being able to take out your enemies before they even get to strike you, it's WS for hitting (And being harder to hit if you truly excel in combat), it's Strength and it's Toughness, then you have the saves and special rules like dodge, removing attacks and different kinds of weapons. That the WS skill isn't that important as toughness and strength, doesn't mean it's broken in my opinion. It should be easier to hit someone, even though they are elites in combat, than to actually damage a creature that has a carapace close to the hardness of a tank.

As for Khaine, I think he should be "easy" to hit... he is a big guy after all. I think he should have more special rules and a higher point cost... something that makes it even harder to kill... maybe make him closer to a wraithlord and you can laugh those puny guardsmen in the face while you slaughter them  :P
« Last Edit: August 9, 2011, 06:59:00 AM by Omnichron »

Offline IainC

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #23 on: August 9, 2011, 07:19:28 AM »
Yes in a fight you will "eventually" be hit, but a drunken fool isn't going to hit me with 1 out of every 2 strikes... or even 1 out of every 3.... He will miss with most of his attacks because contray to your opinion moving away from an oponent is the most EFFICIENT and effective way to counter an attack. You waste no energy, they waste striking energy. You can resposition yourself, you don't have to rely on matching your strength against their strength... If you err on the side of caution it also means a misjudgement doesn't end up with a fist plowed into your face.

It's an abstraction. The Imperial Guardsman isn't actually winding up one punch to land on the nose of the Carnifex that's just romped through his squad. He has a bunch of opportunities for attacks and multiple blows that are abstracted into a single roll to hit - all of that ducking and weaving and running about boils down to a 3+/4+/5+ dice roll. It doesn't literally mean that one out of every three punches the Guardsman throws against a Bloodthirster land, it means that amongst all the to-ing and fro-ing he has about a one in three chance to land something that might cause damage.

As an FYI, there used to be rules that accounted for additional attackers in hand to hand by giving stacking bonuses to later attackers. They were removed because they were hugely exploitable and didn't add a lot to the game.

THe current system actually makes combat MORE brutal because it always comes down to weight of numbers... Incubi, Paladin and such units can ALL be countered by an equal number of points. I mean a unit of Paladins costing 500 points has every chance of losing to 100 Guardsmen. Or an equal amount of orks... Because they are being hit on 4+ despite having a good increase in WS.
This is how it should be. Otherwise assault elites become crazily overpowered if they can charge into combat and be largely immune to return damage. As I've said, the hit chart attempts to balance the brutal nature of assaults by making them riskier even for higher quality troops.

The rest of your post is simply ranting about how you don't like the way that 40k appears to be played in your area. I don't see games like that where I play because I play on large tables against varied opponents. Anecdotal evidence is not proof that anything is broken.
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #24 on: August 9, 2011, 08:56:24 AM »
Anyone who played 2nd edition Herohammer remembers the insanity of WS as the primary melee statistic.

Close combat in 2011 is a lot, lot better than it was back in 1995.  I hope we never go back to that.

Offline Omnichron

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #25 on: August 9, 2011, 09:37:14 AM »
Anyone who played 2nd edition Herohammer remembers the insanity of WS as the primary melee statistic.

Close combat in 2011 is a lot, lot better than it was back in 1995.  I hope we never go back to that.

Yeah, I remember those days as well. I had to use all my army to take down abaddon those days, and couldn't manage it... partl because he was overpowered, part because my opponent cheated.

Anyways, with the stats as I remember it (although I don't remember the exact rules for the Avatar, just baseline), a single guardsman has a 2.75% of inflicting one wound on the Avatar (With save for Avatar), so I wouldn't exactly say that the Avatar has much to fear, except huge numbers of them.

Offline khaine

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #26 on: August 9, 2011, 09:48:22 AM »
THe current system actually makes combat MORE brutal because it always comes down to weight of numbers... Incubi, Paladin and such units can ALL be countered by an equal number of points. I mean a unit of Paladins costing 500 points has every chance of losing to 100 Guardsmen. Or an equal amount of orks...

Hang on... You're saying that an equal amount of points can take on an equal amount of points and saying that's bad games design?

He will miss with most of his attacks because contray to your opinion moving away from an oponent is the most EFFICIENT and effective way to counter an attack.

True in a most day to day situations, best defence is not to be there and in unarmed combat space (Or the control of space) is your best friend. But when the other guy is trying to club you with his pistol moving away and creating space will probably get you shot.

Don't forget we're not just talking about punching people in the face, as somebody covered a few posts back it's also pistols, rocks and any number of dirty tricks. Sure 1 on 1 the higher WS guy would take out the lower WS guy with no problems, but when Mr Low WSs mate is sneaking up behind Mr High WS with a monkey wrench...
« Last Edit: August 9, 2011, 09:57:11 AM by khaine »

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Offline Brutoni

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #27 on: August 9, 2011, 10:02:23 AM »
@IanC... I'm aware it was an abstraction. It was a previous poster who commented about real life and how it's easier to "hit someone" than to "hurt someone"... Which is simply not true. As for comments about fighting 10 people instead of just 1 of you. That can indeed be problematic and no doubt your average person would have trouble...

But then again I can find numerous examples of more skilled persons in life easily capable of pulling off crazy feats... In fact at the battle of the Nile (or it may be trafalgar) I believe a young British Lieutenant ended up jumping the gap between a Spanish ship even as his ship drifted apart... The stranded officer proceeded to fight his way through the ship killing huge numbers of men before diving off the quarter deck...

Anyway. This is all stepping outside of the point. As we are all aware the game is not real and I should not have responded to any comments about real life.

That said I do not believe you are correct. As it is elite assault troops can be largely pointless as is WS and I. No where is this made more clear than with Dark Eldar, Eldar or other supposedly "skilled" units.

They end up needing help via special rules instead of just being able to find solice in the basic rules.


Finally my other parts are not "ranting" about how it's played in my area. The standard GW board in their shops are 4" by 4"... Which is pitifully small. A Lascannon can pretty much cover the entire board without having to ever move. And it's very very easy to get a turn 1 assault. The rulebook even suggests playing on such sized boards or at most a 6" by 4" board... Which is still not really good enough.

That's what I was actually getting at. Due to the size of the boards, the ability for combat to be resolved in multiple phases AND the way combat favours the many over the few it is much simpler to take a large army that can run forward, take casualties and then club everything to death.

My actual games are usually played at home, with objectives to ensure that it's not mindless killing and on a board that is closer to 6.5" by 6.5" so that how you deploy, move and react becomes so much more important.

Khaine, I'm not saying that an equal amount of points taking on an equal amount of points is a bad thing however I'm pretty sure the guardsmen could probably win a shooting match as well as they will kill off a Paladin every turn... Return fire from the Paladins will kill off about 10-12 a turn...

Admitedly I think I used a bad example because Imperial Gaurdsmen are some of the best value units in the game point for point IMHO.

:P Your image of a space marine being taken down by a monkey wrench is an amusing one... May have to make a conversion about that.

Offline TorchLighter

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #28 on: August 9, 2011, 10:57:03 AM »
I think part of the main problem is associated with the all- encompassing nature of WS, in which it represents both attack and defence. In my case I'm talking about how S and T control a fight compared to how WS does.

Splitting S and T was a great move by Games Workshop, as it allowed for the idea of very strong, but very weak units (not that we see any... :P). Logically, it still makes sense; a creature is still roughly the same S and T, because that's simple. But it also offers the opportunity to change that via equipment, like a bike, representing the possibility of the bike taking the shot meant for the rider.

The best example of altering S is probably the USR Furious Charge, which gives +1 to S and I when charging. On the Eldar forums, there is an ongoing debate associated with this rule, mostly with regards to Howling Banshees. Banshees are designed to take out heavily armored targets, with the Space Marines being the de facto examples. However, all Eldar have S3, which leaves the  Banshees with an awkward prospect of trying to wound the juggernauts of T4. Many people say that giving the Banshees Furious Charge would allow them to be more effective at their job, while not generalising them into a 'kill-all' unit. But many point out that a Banshee, especially backed up with the Farseer's support, is more than a match for the Space Marines.

What did this somewhat pointless monologue mean? If I had a say at GW Headquarters, I would move for a split of WS  into Defence and Offence, possibly with a reversion to S and T tables. Doing so would allow the Eldar, for example to be represented much better. In the current world they are seen as too fragile, while I believe that this would allow the Eldar to shine as Supreme warriors, peerless in skill, but somewhat impotent versus the fury and taciturn fortitude of a Space Marine. With separate skills, it would also be capable of showing the Tyranids as somewhat more uncaring about defence, preferring instead to simply  drwon the enemy in bodies...

However, this would make the game significantly more complex, and I don't think I've thought it out perfectly. Perhaps a bonus for outnumbering? The main objective would be to facilitate the idea of a warrior moving through a melee, allowing the enemies numbers to hinder him.
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Offline IainC

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #29 on: August 9, 2011, 12:03:11 PM »
That said I do not believe you are correct. As it is elite assault troops can be largely pointless as is WS and I. No where is this made more clear than with Dark Eldar, Eldar or other supposedly "skilled" units.

They end up needing help via special rules instead of just being able to find solice in the basic rules.

Then this conversation is not going to have a happy ending for you. Nobody else seems to agree that the assault phase is too weak or that specialised assault troops have trouble with their role. My experience, and the impression from the others in this thread is that an assault is an extremely effective way to kill the enemy and the better your troops, the more reliably they will do just that. What you are asking for is that powerful assault troops should be all but invulnerable and that's simply not good design for a wargame.
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Offline Brutoni

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #30 on: August 9, 2011, 12:43:19 PM »
That said I do not believe you are correct. As it is elite assault troops can be largely pointless as is WS and I. No where is this made more clear than with Dark Eldar, Eldar or other supposedly "skilled" units.

They end up needing help via special rules instead of just being able to find solice in the basic rules.

Then this conversation is not going to have a happy ending for you. Nobody else seems to agree that the assault phase is too weak or that specialised assault troops have trouble with their role. My experience, and the impression from the others in this thread is that an assault is an extremely effective way to kill the enemy and the better your troops, the more reliably they will do just that. What you are asking for is that powerful assault troops should be all but invulnerable and that's simply not good design for a wargame.

No I'm not..... No where have I said Assault is not powerful enough. In fact in many ways assault is too powerful due to being split over 2 phases.

However powerful assault troops should be capable in assault. As it is many of them will die horribly to shooting. (Paladins are an expensive squad when a devastator lascannon is turned on them, or melta guns, or fire dragons, or lances... or even plasma weapons. The same is true of many other elite assault troops).

Yet despite that many will lose and/or not push through other troops like they are meant to do. My example of guardsmen there was a good one.

In fact contray to your opinion I believe the assault phase is TOO brutal, made worse by small boards... And thus favours hoards of weaker units rather than smaller more elite units.

A hit chart that at least made it harder to hit makes sense in my mind... Though I agree hitting on a 2+ may be too much due to making certain units very brutal it is quite reasonable I think to change how quickly units are hit on a 5+.

IN effect I think you are the one who is defending a more brutal assault phase due to wanting to keeping units hitting other units on a 4+.

Do I make more sense where my opinion stands? I understand your one however I find the assault phase deeply flawed in 40K due to the ease with which hoards of units can damage elite units AND the ease with which hoards of units can make it across a small board that gives up huge numbers of terrain saves to make it into shooting safely.

I will possibly conceed that the fix is not in the WS table. However at no point have I asked for "powerful assault troops to be invulnerable".

Furthermore I don't understand what you mean by this not having a happy ending? With all due respect the worst you or others can possibly do is disagree with me to the point where we agree to disagree.

Offline Czaq

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #31 on: August 9, 2011, 02:40:31 PM »
I think the to hit chart change doesn't nessecarily for offense and defense. Now amount of skill can prevent you from being hit when outnumbered 10-1 at a single moment. If lelith were fighting a platoon of guardsmen, 1 or 2 at a time she would win. Not all at once. I think that what would help super elite infantry would be a better chance to hit. Perhaps then if you double or more an opponents WS you roll a 2+ to hit. But your opponent is still just as likely to hit back. This will only be the case when a leader or superior fighter is fighting a less skilled mob of opponents. If an avatar is swarmed by 20 guardsmen swinging his blade as a golf club should be all that's necessary to make hits.

Offline IainC

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #32 on: August 9, 2011, 05:05:16 PM »
A hit chart that at least made it harder to hit makes sense in my mind... Though I agree hitting on a 2+ may be too much due to making certain units very brutal it is quite reasonable I think to change how quickly units are hit on a 5+.

IN effect I think you are the one who is defending a more brutal assault phase due to wanting to keeping units hitting other units on a 4+.

Do I make more sense where my opinion stands? I understand your one however I find the assault phase deeply flawed in 40K due to the ease with which hoards of units can damage elite units AND the ease with which hoards of units can make it across a small board that gives up huge numbers of terrain saves to make it into shooting safely.

You were advocating a to hit table that went to 6. That change along with moving the 5+ to hit further down the chart - even if the table bottomed out at 3+ - would make elite troops almost untouchable in combat. Once in an assault they would be at almost no risk from enemies weaker than them. Currently assaults are usually decisive but can be costly, you'd remove the risk without changing the scale of the reward.

Hordes of troops have their own disadvantages, the fact that weight of numbers can, in some circumstances overwhelm better troops is a feature not a bug.
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Offline Brutoni

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #33 on: August 9, 2011, 05:12:04 PM »
IanC shall we agree to disagree then? I understand your comments I just happen to disagree with them.

It's not too much of a problem. Pie plating, avoiding, misdirection and other methods work just fine against hordes as you have said  :P.

The original post was to get what other people thought about the situation and I will accept you feel this is the case.


Oh on a final note... I may not be able to take on 10 people at once, but after 2 decades of training I know, and have been in the unfortunate position to prove it, that I can take on 4 people at once.

Some of the greatest human fighters have been seen to take on more than 4 people at once. Remember that while you go on about abstraction, it is an abstraction that a model is located in position x to fight a certain amount of opponents.

That is in this case, in 40K you have Space Marines who are super human... You also have Eldar who are so fast and agile they appear to "glide" across the ground and have reflexes faster than a space marines... I'm pretty sure Lelith would have no problem avoiding 10 guardsmen in a real fight... Being able to move faster than the fastest space marine would make it difficult to stop her killing you to be frank. Especially when she has all the strength and toughness that a human does.

Offline myles

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #34 on: August 9, 2011, 08:53:43 PM »
You very well may have fought off four people at once, but have you ever fought off four people who are trained as soldiers to work together, all have guns and knives, and are literally fighting to kill you at the cost of their own lives? No, you have not. It's the same for Lelith. She could slice them and dice them before they know what's going on, but they're not hanging around drinking beers and watching the game. They're on high alert, weapons at the ready. She might bring down six people in the space of a few seconds, but they know she has to be next to someone to kill them, so already they have a decent idea of her likely positions/locations, and they have fully automatic weapons. The rest is fairly straightforward.


Also, I don't understand why you think models should excel in what they do without special rules. You said yourself, a Wych has equivalent strength and toughness to a human, so why should the base stats be different? The special rules are just that: they make the models special! Yes, it would be easier to have better balance with simpler and fewer rules, but that's never been 40k. Before we had as many types of models as we do now, we had far more comlex rules for the fewer models we had.

« Last Edit: August 9, 2011, 09:03:32 PM by myles »
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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2011, 01:12:47 AM »
I think I may have found a soloution to the to hit chart whilst sipping on a nice non alchoholic drink earlier. Use the same system that applies for BS, Ie WS4 VS WS4: 4+, WS5 VS WS4: 3+, WS6 VS WS4, 3+, WS7 Vs WS4: 3+, if miss, re roll 6+ will hit, WS8 VS WS4: 3+, if miss then 5+ will hit. Etc

For decending WS4 VS WS5 : 4+, WS4 VS WS6: 4+, WS4 VS WS7: 5+, WS4 VS WS9+: 6+

So essentially friendly has greater ws: 2X WS-1 gets a re roll a la BS, and decending 2X WS+1 is 6+ to hit.

Sound fairer, works in my mind, its ages before the enemy gets penalized badly, yet if you WS is a bit higher than it becomes a bit easier to hit
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Offline Omnichron

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2011, 03:37:52 AM »
I disagree with the idea about WS not being strong enough because there are so many other factors in close combat (as mentioned before). In my blabbering at the first post I had in this thread, I forgot to mention one important stat: Attacks

I see the number of attacks to be even more important than WS when determining whether a unit excels in close combat or not... I don't see why the WS should be more important than what it is, and if it did get improved there has to be some reaction... Higher point cost, less attacks or some other things that makes them balance.

And that last word there is the most important of them all. The game needs to be balanced. If guardsmen (Or any of the Imperial Guard as most have sucky WS compared to many other races) can barely hit elite close combat specialists , they need to get more chances to shoot their enemies down... shooting in both turns? More shots in their turn? Or should the close combat units get -1 attack each?

I say, keep the balance. The Avatar isn't immortal, neither is Lelith, and both are extremely hard for guardsmen to put down. Represented good enough for me at least.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2011, 11:40:03 PM »
It's a tough call. Getting too realistic can ruin things as this is a game of fantasy, epic battles, and heroes/villains. People can easily get locked into the visually static nature of the game (I go-you go, models standing in place, inches etc.) when it is actually very abstract. Everything is technically happening at once. A squad of 10 guys aren't just standing there swinging knives at Lysander, Kharn, Yriel, Avatar, Hive tyrants etc. They're moving, shooting pistols etc. But big heroes are epic in a game of fantasy space orks and elves. A big hero should be able to handle a squad of normal troops, but have a tough time against a squad of specialists. This is where the dice come in. Against weaker things  a lone character should do fine. Against something tougher, they shouldn't feel safe. This is why there are dice and randomness to the game. Throw Yriel at a squad of just tactical marines. He will usually do quite a few wounds and really beat up the squad in assault. Make that "Epicily heroic" flip and dive through the battle field and strike the squad of tactical marines. If you roll poorly, you basically just showed that not all epic ideals can pan out.

Also consider Heroes have a lot more going for them than just their hitting. You also have to consider initiative, armor saves, toughness, strength, wounds, etc. Some heroes have a high initiative letting them attack first, killing stuff, and taking less attacks back. They have multiple wounds for those random hits that do get through (epic heroes can take some hits can keep fighting!). Avatars are tough and can be hard to wound (Come on they're big MCs, they aren't hard to miss!) and have a decent armor save. All this has to be taken into account for their combat prowess.

All in all, I think it's pretty fine as is. Heroes shouldn't slay bulks of armies on their own, but they should be competent tacticians. Most are, some aren't so much. This is more of a flaw with the character in question more than the mechanics of the game.


Offline Fenris

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2011, 05:03:28 PM »
I think hitting on 2s and 6s in CC is a good thing, I would also suggest that models with BS6 or higher gain an extra shot with their weapon rather than re-rolling to hit.
So a model with BS7 and a bolter can fire 3 shots with rapid fire 2 of them hitting on 2+ and the third hitting on 5+.

The to hit table provided earlier looks good but I'd rather it looked like:
WS1 hit on 6+
WS2 hit on 5+
WS3 hit on 4+
WS4 hit on 3+
WS5 hit on 2+
WS6 hit on 2+ and reduces opponent hit chance by 1 or may make an additional hit on 6+.
WS7 hit on 2+ and reduces opponent hit chance by 2 or may make an additional hit on 5+.
WS8 hit on 2+ and reduces opponent hit chance by 3 or may make an additional hit on 4+.
WS9 hit on 2+ and reduces opponent hit chance by 4 or may make an additional hit on 3+.
WS10hit on 2+ and may block 1 attack or gain one attack.

To make the CC carnage a bit less I think GW should reintroduce the movement stat, usually the same as initiative to make the gaming board seem larger. A normal space marine would have M4 and a guardsman M3.
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Offline Awfully Dandy

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2011, 06:49:40 PM »
Don't forget we're not just talking about punching people in the face, as somebody covered a few posts back it's also pistols, rocks and any number of dirty tricks. Sure 1 on 1 the higher WS guy would take out the lower WS guy with no problems, but when Mr Low WSs mate is sneaking up behind Mr High WS with a monkey wrench...

I know your not saying this but we have to take into account physicality and equipment. Fighter X might be more skilled in fighting then Fighter Y but Y has trained harder and thus is fitter (Represented by higher strength, iniative). Or two swordsmen square of, one incredibly skilled but wearing just plain clothes and weilding a wodden sword, the other using a steel blade and encased in full plate armour.

The point is that skill isn't everything in a fight and I feel 40k can quite accurately represent this.


 


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