Topic: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?

[Guildmage Aech]

For the next tourny i organize, i will bring VP back. I think i will solve the KP issue by making every KP worth:

Point limit of army, divided by the total number of KP in army

So lets say, you have got an army with 10 KP and are playing 1500p. Every KP would be worth 150p. At the same point limit, an army with just 5 KP would give away 300 VP per KP.

I really like that idea actually, still simple but much more ballanced than suggestions that 5 IG are as tactically valuble as 10 terminators.

The other theory I had was to steal the VP rules from BFG, where its the points value divided by 100 and rouned up to the next whole number. So 0-99=1 KP, 101-199=2 KP and so on...

Pretty much I think anything is going to be an improvement over "its annilation; therefore you lose" better luck next time.

[scottdsp748]

Since my LGS got their advance copy of the 5th ed book almost 2 months ago, I've played a ton of games using the new rules and missions, including two tournaments.  My inferior guardians and dire avengers have done just fine.  I've won most of the games I've played in 5th ed including winning both tournaments, because I have adapted to the new rules and others have not.  Remember, troops in transports are scoring units now, any unit can contest, and if you stack most armies just for objective taking they are going to be low on offense.

In a 5 objective game, if they have troops on 4 and you have troops on 1, but you kill the troops at two of them and contest the other two.  You win.  If you go through this and other forums, you can find a post for any army being overpowered in 5th and you can also find one for OMG mai Armeez is nurft!  for the same army.  <---That's called balance!   

[Sanctjud]

And I thought balance consisted of Rock, Paper, Scissor, and Mushrooms....

___________________ ___________________ __

Seriously though, @ Scottdsp748... it sounds kinda...'mean' or vague would be a better word.
You won games and the tourney's based on adapting to the rules.... could it be that your opponents were STILL unfamiliar with it... it's not a good ranking of how well you do if your opponent is still going through the rulebook for what to do in this or that situation...

You want a level playing field were both people know what they are doing with their army... if it is not, IMO, it's not great evidence for a point of view...

If I'm wrong about the ability of your opponents, then just ignore this post.

My 7 Cents.

[scottdsp748]

@ Sanctjud what I was getting at was people didn't adjust thier 4th ed power lists for the new rules and still treated troops as expendable, didnt prioritize mobility, min-maxed squads, etc.  Sorry, I should have been more clear.  My point really is this...before going on the internet and crying nerf, play some games with it and see if you can adjust your army list and tactics to work better.  I've helped lots of the people I play with around her re-work lists for 5th, so I'm not at all mean.  I just dont care much for blanket statements about the suckyness or neutered-state of an army's troops selections with nothing constructive to go with it.

I still think it puts things in favor of those with good troops choices.  What do eldar have?  Dire avengers are good if you bring them in bladestorming. Don't expect them to hold the objective they just took though, because now they can't shoot.  Guardians suck, with no range, no save (against most things), and low S & T.  Jetbikes are good, but freaking expensive (I still don't have any).  Rangers can hold an objective in cover, but not take one.  Wraithguard, well they may be the best option for holding an objective, but when you need 10 to be a troops choice, plus a farseer and warlock to give it its resilience, its almost 500 points.  Nurgle is now the best army for 5th.

[Banned Solorg]

I guess the fair question is: what army does have the best troops in the new edition?  Orks, I have to say, have a nice advantage since the enemy has to kill 30 of them usually before he can even get 1 Killpoint.  Same with Grotz.  And if they're Cyber-Orks, then they all get 5+ invulnerable saves... you can shoot 'em all day and maybe NEVER get a Kill Point!

[ogre king]

     well i play against nids quite a bit and they do seem to suffer (well my mates do) in most games, he as recently started using a nidzilla list.

[Lucky_Jackal]

Nidzillia to work in 5th has to be scaled back. It will more or less be a list that is made up mostly of stealers and fexs. next to no cannon folder (sept for a spine gaunt screen), and maby got of synapyses units lurking around.

I see it being a list with 4 fex's (2 elite and 2 heavy), 3 stealer broods, and some support units. Like zonapods, Warrioirs, Wing'd Warriors, ect. In the end only haveing about 3 or 4 scoreing units.

More or less to get "nidzillia" to work, you got to scale back how many MC's you take for more troops and support units. Witch is not a bad thing for nid plays since ALL amies will more or less have to do this.

[scottdsp748]

From the games I've played thus-far, I'd say orks and loyalist marines have been the toughest to deal with, though i haven't faced gunline guard yet.  The chaos cult marines, especially plague marines and Ksons,  and wraithguard are about the toughest thing out there that can count as troops but are easily balanced out by their points cost. 

I'd have to say the nod would go to the 30 man unit of boyz against most armies, especially if there's a fair amount of cover on the table.  Statistically it takes 180 bolter shots to kill 30 boyz in 4+ cover provided they don't go to ground.  Assaulting them without reducing their numbers significantly first is suicide for most units as you cant rely on initiative to clear the kill zone anymore. 

[Ian Wood]

Nurgle is now the best army for 5th.

Isn't it a shame that FNP got noticeably worse in 5th ed? 

[Gornon]

To all of you saying Guard is unbalanced, your right they are.  We are forced into choosing to 'specialize' in claiming objectives.  But remember, we have a codex on the way, December I think, so we will be adjusted for 5th.

[Ian Wood]

And if they're Cyber-Orks, then they all get 5+ invulnerable saves... you can shoot 'em all day and maybe NEVER get a Kill Point!

If you want to nearly double the cost of your Boyz for a 5++ save, feel free. 

[Sanctjud]

FNP is not worse... it's been balanced...

And you know what... with all the 4+ cover saves.... the 'balance' to FNP hasn't been felt too much... in most cases, my plague marines got TOUGHER, esp. with the Rot Wall I'm using (ie Rhino's as mobile terrain).

I can Go To ground for that juicy 3+ cover save.... better than than FNP in some cases (ie battlecannons).

My 7 Cents.

[Gornon]

Correct.  The only real nerf to FNP is the fact that Plasma Guns, Plasma Cannons, and Assault Cannons and a few Eldar weapons now hurt it, too.  Most other things that were AP 1 or 2 tended to be ST 8 or above, thus always denying FNP to the Plague Marine.  Oh, and it matters vs Sisters of Battle Divine Guidance.  Yay rending Flamers and Bolters!

[premetheus]

I'd have to say the nod would go to the 30 man unit of boyz against most armies, especially if there's a fair amount of cover on the table.  Statistically it takes 180 bolter shots to kill 30 boyz in 4+ cover provided they don't go to ground.  Assaulting them without reducing their numbers significantly first is suicide for most units as you cant rely on initiative to clear the kill zone anymore.

Add to that the fact you will have at least one turn of 30 orks with two shots each at you....But hey thats what flammers are for right? Adues cover save, adeus armour save adeus most of the ork boyz...hmm now the problem is how do I get there without dying 

[u9k13]

Alright I can see this a problem for competitive play. So house rule it for tournies.


But for fun games, who cares who wins? We mostly play scenarios and its pretty obvious in some that one side is doomed, but the game is still fun seeing how much of the enemy you can take with you. So kill points favour some armies and objective favour others. So what? As long as its a good game it does not matter. Does winning 'friendly' games really mean so much to people?

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

but the issue is is that no  everyone plays at a friendly level, and we all know this. Sure, with a few mates in the garden on a nice day its all good, but there is also the tourney factor where people pay real hard earned, honest to god CASH to play and they want to win. Both types have to be accounted for.

I am starting to get fed up with (play for fun) excuses to shiity rules. Sure its nice, but in a lot of cases its not the case*


* i will state that i not an advocate of power gaming, for tournies, as many here will attest, just a realist

[Ian Wood]

but there is also the tourney factor where people pay real hard earned, honest to god CASH to play

What, and everyone else got their armies for free, and never attends any gaming club with an entry fee? 

[bca11]

Nurgle is now the best army for 5th.

Isn't it a shame that FNP got noticeably worse in 5th ed? 

They'll still get it vs. ap3 though, so it makes their 3+ as good as 2+ vs. ap3 and higher (2+ fails half as often as 3+, FNP works half the time).

[scottdsp748]

Alright I can see this a problem for competitive play. So house rule it for tournies.

It's actually a balancing element for tournies.  It makes it so if you play one of each mission type (which looks to be the tourney standard at least around here) you have to bring a force that's created to be good at both objective taking and annihilation games.

[Changeyname]

i'd have to agree that orks have gotten the best of the pick with regards to winning games
take your average ork list
lots of boys, a few specialised units etc
takes ages to kill them off for a KP
takes ages to shift them from objectives due to cover saves and going to ground
basically they dont really suffer in either situation as a generalisation, i know they can get battered etc so please dont feel the need to point out every way to trounce an ork list
what im tryin to say is this
Orks manage to hold their own in both types of victory scenario due to the nature of their list