Topic: Have you ever encountered this problem? [Necron Hate]

[Scyrex Deledras]

The thing gamers need to realize is that EVERY army has its own brand of "cheese": Necrons have their tricksy Resurrection abilities and items, Eldar and Tau have their all-mech builds (especially w. Falcons), Dark Eldar have Webway Portals, Orks have double Shokk Attack Gunz, Tyranids have Nidzilla lists, Marines have Podding armies and lotsa lotsa assault cannons, Chaos has double-Lash armies with unfluffy combos of Slaanesh and Nurgle troops, Imperial Guard hav.....um.......ha ve.......

Well okay, ALMOST every army.

The point is, just because an army has a really tough thing going for it, doesn't mean it's unbeatable. Yes, half (or 2/3) of the Necrons you kill will simply get back up. So what? Kill their Monoliths or Lords, and this ability rapidly decreases. PEOPLE ONLY CRY CHEESE WHEN THEY ARE LOSING, AND CAN'T DEAL WITHT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE LOSING.

[Wombats]

I agree all armies have cheese. 

The problem with Necrons is:

• Really big, game-changing cheese like teleporting
• That is not readily apparent on the models as its often Lord wargear
• and cannot be understood without a long time with the codex

Most other army's cheese have precedents, don't change the flow of the game much or as powerful. 

All that put together made me feel like I was playing with a three year old making up rules the first time I played.   

I'm I've been playing almost two decades now, I'm pretty tolerant to that sort of thing. 

Its a shame GW went crazy with special rules instead of using the fundamentals of their system. 

You need to be sensitive playing against people who haven't seen Necrons in action before, it is a much bigger learning curve than any other army. 

I would feel like I was cheating if I played Necrons against someone who hadn't fought them before and didn't give them a run down of their very odd special rules. 

You can argue that its their responsibility to find out, they can also argue that they want to invest two hours of their time doing something fun. 

[Terro]

The only necron player in my area lost all his all his models 2 outta 3 games last tourney and lost the 3rd game...course he is obviously not that good but whatever.

I'm looking foward to a chance to play crons. My only gripe is how are DE supposed to kill monoliths? I don't play them but looking through the DE codex they have nothing thats good at killing monoliths.

[Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen]

They have plenty of things that can kill Warriors, however.  And really, that's all that matters in the long run.

Though I do think Dark Eldar still get Haywire Grenades...

~Andromidius

[Arkion]

I hate necrons.  I'd never play them as an army, but guess what?  My friend loves 'em, and has painted near 2000 points.  My friend thinks Ultramarines are teh ghey, but that's one of the reasons I love 'em:  Everyone seems to have an opinion on Ultras (most commonly, "Ugh, gawd, not those fascist pigs again,") so it's like you're infamous at the game table before you roll any dice. 

That love-hate is part of the natural rhythm of the game, and part of what makes it so satisfying to play.  My friend hates my terminators, while I hate his stupid T5 Immortals, (and don't even get me started on the monolith)!  But it's a game.  A game!  You're rolling dice, not digging ditches or spending long hours at work.  Anyone who gets that crazy upset over a silly game with plastic soldiers has had too easy of a life.  Seriously.

[jawmonkey]

its love-hate with necrons; when I first started getting into 40k I thought they looked cool, seemed a neat army. Then I play against them a few times, read a codex (and realize over 50% of the local players play them) and I start to not like them.

I was dissappointed that (some parts) of their army seems to be so limited. I really just get frustrated that, to play around here< I need to make every army able to fight necrons well.

not saying necrons aren't on my list of next army to collect, I just wish everyone in town didn't play them and that the 'crons were a little different (maybe a new codex will fix that though)

[MalContent]

Hm, I'm surprised Necron players are so common in your area...there are only one other necron player besides me (that I know of) at both of the game stores I go to...weird, huh?

[Whitehat51]

Besides that IMHO Tau is more cheese then Necrons :p

Are you serious?

Is he serious?

The Tau have WS 2.  The statline is worse than a guardsman's except for their save, which, if a Guardsman took the Carapace Armor upgrade, would still cost less than a Fire Warrior.  The only advantage they have is the high-strength(and also high AP) weaponry and mobility.  IMO, Tau are not being played right if they're not mobile, and if they're being played static, you should not be complaining about cheese.  I never won a single game with my static Tau but my Mech force is undefeated, and in several of the wins, I didn't have a single infantry alive on the board.

But this isn't the thread to discuss this.

Necrons are not cheesy, in my opinion.  Their troops are dismal in close combat.  If they get teleported out of combat, that's their biggest advantage, which is worth it for the 235 points they pay for a model with very little offensive capability.  Not only that, but aside from the little-used Heavy Destroyers, nothing in the army is above S6, so they have to rely on inflicting glancing hits to destroy enemy armor.  All of their weapons are AP4 or higher(aside from the Heavy Destroyers, but we've been through this).  As for the C'tan, they're 300 points at least.  That means inflicting a wound on them, diverting that one extra Lascannon shot, can buy you 150-180 points.

[DJ-of-E]

Necrons are the only army in which I ever pulled out 2 Defilers in my Chaos space marine army.

What's the point of that statement?  Necrons are like every other army, you just need a specific tactics to go against them.  The only problem is that Necrons are one of the more difficult armies to go against in a "balance" list.

Personally, I think a good guard player is scarier than Necrons against Sisters and Chaos Marines.

[Lord Janyx]

I don't have any problems with the Necron Codex or the special rules that they have access to, but I will say that I have a problem with the people who play Necs. Every damn Nec list I see is basically the same thing. You'd think I'm psychic by the way I can predict exactly what Necron units I'm going to see and how they're going to be deployed.

Imagine a 1750pt game. You can pretty much count on the following:

2 Monoliths
1-2 Lords with Res Orbs
A large smattering of Warriors and Destroyers
Maybe a unit of something like flayed ones, or pariahs, rarely a C'tan

They deploy in the usual 'bunch up so that we're never out of Res Orb/Veil range'. So basically whatever mission you were playing goes right out the window and you have only one option to face this list with. Phase them out. Concentrate everything you have and launch an all out assault and hope to god that you can do enough damage to phase them out as quickly as possible.

Now I'm not saying that this list is invulnerable or cheesy (actually I'm getting pretty damn good at pulling off phase outs), but it just plays out exactly the same way every battle. It's so boring.

I have the unfortunate luck to belong to a game store where a full THIRD of the 40k population plays Necrons now (5/15 players that I'm familiar with), and they all play it in the same damn way. I've gotten to the point where when I get asked for a game I'm thinking, "Gee I'd probably play against you if you played an army that interested me in the slightest, but I think instead I'll sit here and work on painting my forces and wait for someone else to show up."

That and, I'm sorry, but any idiot with half a brain can play this list. They all think they're so smart because they have their little phalanx sitting in the middle of the board soaking up a crap-load of fire and getting back up all the time. Yawn.

I will say though, that every once in a Blue Moon I get a Nec player that builds a cool army and defies the convention. I love playing against people like this, but unfortunately, they are rare. 9/10 Necron players are a waste of my time.

[Pvt. Dancer]

I'm not worried about Necrons, as a Tau player. I know the Necron Codex largely on top of my head.
Scarabs, dont bother me
Warriors, meet Farsight and gun Drones
Monolith? Railgun, not destroyed? Have another
And so on.

But, if you're not expecting to face Necrons, you're very likely to be in trouble

[MalContent]

I'm not worried about Necrons, as a Tau player. I know the Necron Codex largely on top of my head.
Scarabs, dont bother me
Warriors, meet Farsight and gun Drones
Monolith? Railgun, not destroyed? Have another
And so on.

But, if you're not expecting to face Necrons, you're very likely to be in trouble

Fire Warriors? Meet Wraith. 

Seriously though, if played right any game can be a good, even match. It all comes down to the generals and the roll of the dice.

[Whitehat51]

I used a Necron army before: It was scarab based.  It had 3 10 swarm units of Scarabs and 9 tomb spyders.  It also had a Necron Lord and his two Warrior squad retinue.

[Wombats]

9/10 Necron players are a waste of my time.

I'd probably lay the blame on a badly made codex. 

I play Sisters with very limited unit selection...but the units I use are heaps of fun and risky as all hell. 

For Necrons their optimal units are just...boring and predictable. 

[Gutstikk]

Not at all! Necron optimal units can be fun, exciting, and wildly unpredictable if the player in question is willing to make it so! Destroyers, for instance - sure, they pump out a lot of shots, but they most certainly can be used to effectively assault things like IG, Fire Warriors, and even some Eldar, and then yanked out once the hordes of warriors are close enough. Warriors can be used to assault to good effect. Immortals often are not used in the same manner as warriors; they are normally zipped about via teleportation, making blast weapons a big threat. And those are the basic units; just about all of the other units are very interesting and diverse and allow for much greater tactical flexibility.

The only unit in the codex that I think is over the line is the monolith, which probably needs nothing more than the shield against additional D6 and some sort of limited repair mechanism [on a 4+ repair one weapon destroyed or immobilized], with the particle whip becoming separate from the teleportation feature [though the teleportation could still only be done if it doesn't shoot/repair]. This would replace living metal and all of the protection it has from losing guns [so you would be able to destroy the whip or all of the projectors with a single weapon destroyed result].

That change would bring it more in line with other vehicles; you would be able to shake it, stun it, destroy either of its two weapons, immobilize it, and if it attempted self-repair it could not teleport a unit or shoot that turn [though it could still move if mobile].

[Khain Mor (/kharandhil)]

Necrons are the only army in which I ever pulled out 2 Defilers in my Chaos space marine army.

What's the point of that statement?  Necrons are like every other army, you just need a specific tactics to go against them.  The only problem is that Necrons are one of the more difficult armies to go against in a "balance" list.

completely agree...

You just have to know how to play against crons...their wargear is special their tactics too. To destroy a necron army you have to use special tactics just like you adapt to each army you play against.

A big weakness of the crons is their lack in CC; Unlike a lot of armies who have tons of cc units; crons only have a few units who are specialised in CC and even those arent that special. take the tomb spyder and scarabs...are they that poweful? both face a carnifex and theyre dead...

Send a few CC units into the non cc crons units to stop or completely kill them and the cron player can't do anything...or not much...

flayed ones...are they that special? 2A with saves...okay theyre hard to kill...not with powerweapon...send some powerweapons and boum theyre dead..., paria are scary but dont have will be back or that much attacks either. whiches are perfect to face them...cheaper in pts yet they will kill some parias...and you finished them off with some firering...

the slowness of a cron army is a weakness too; okay some units are fast but not all are...

destroyers and monolith are powerful for sure...yet you dont have tons of them...
monolith can be destroyed with some luck...

on the battlefield crons arent as immortal as their stories pretend...

I know crons well too since I play them...ever since new codex just came out
I borrow units when i do big battles (I onyl have a few of my own)

nothing is forever especially not necrons...
I havnt lost with my dark eldar or with my eldar in years...crons were victims aswell ...the better cc units and the speed was too much to handle for the crons...

I'm not worried about Necrons, as a Tau player. I know the Necron Codex largely on top of my head.
Scarabs, dont bother me
Warriors, meet Farsight and gun Drones
Monolith? Railgun, not destroyed? Have another
And so on.

But, if you're not expecting to face Necrons, you're very likely to be in trouble

I'm a tau player too ever since they came out...cc is a big problem for tau lol...and guns who kill yet crons stand back up...very trroublesome...

[Seth-Ra the Everliving]

I would say that the only people who would complain about a specific army are the ones who can't tactically think, who arent able to adapt their force or tactics to accound for the strengths of an enemy force that breaks the mold.

If they can't handle the challenge then they need enlightening. Swap armies. That's what I used to do with my eldar, and it works. We only see the strengths of others and the weaknesses of ourselves.

[Flimsyman25]

Well . . .  That's kinda the point, Seth-Ra.  Every army has things that are effective, but if you swap armies, you'll find that the "cheese" has weaknesses, and that your usual army (the one your opponent is now playing) has stuff just as bad.

Except with the Necrons.  My friend cried cheese when my Eldar beat his robots for the fifth time in a row.  So we swapped for a game, and I stomped him horribly.  I've played with Eldar, Space Marines, Chaos, Tau, Tyranids, Orks, and now Necrons.  Necrons are cheap.  They are the most boring, obvious powergamer faction in the game.  Don't get me wrong, I like playing against them.

The difference is this.  Playing (either with or against) Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks, or Tyranids, it's always a good and entertaining game, whether I win or lose.  Against Necrons (and to a lesser extent, Space Marines), I enjoy killing them.  That's it.  Just makes for a magnificently boring game.

[Seth-Ra the Everliving]

I understand what you say. I would find Necrons dull to play. Thematically, however they're great. Robot zombies in space!!!

I suppose the heart of the problem is the tactical inflexibility at the heart of the Necron game, because they're playing a different game to the rest of us. They have different objectives and criteria to meet. They are forced to have huge blocks of warriors to prevent phase out and thus cannot field the cool fun stuff that they might have.

Pity the necron player, do not revile him. Enjoy chopping his chrome plated robot zombies into scrap.

[MalContent]

Hey don't be too harsh on us Necron players.  We have feelings too, they just read as follows:

1100101010100001001 0010010010010101010 0101010100101110

Haha, seriously though...I find Necrons quite fun to play, though I don't exactly use a standard necron list, as I field Wraiths and scarabs quite a bit.

I can admit ,however, that the monolith is grossly over powered for what it has. While I wouldn't call it cheese, and it does cost as much as a Land Raider, the fact that I decimated an entire Eldar (Ulthwe) army with one Monolith, a squad of warriors, and a Res Lord, is proof of that.

Of course...I did roll a six twice for the gauss arcs, and I just so happened to have landed my 'Lith in the dead center of his army...poor Farseer didn't "see" it coming. 

Anyway, enough about my war stories. To sum it all up, Necron armies can be fun to play and play against, it just depends on the player using the army.
Two monoliths in a 1500pt game = Not fun
30 Scarabs and 9 Tomb Spyders = Probably a lot more fun to play against.