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Offline deFl0

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #40 on: January 7, 2009, 01:04:40 PM »
It's a shame that Eldar tactics are based on doing nothing but staying alive for most of the game.

The whole crippling of skimmer's shooting was really one of my biggest disappointments in the new edition. I thought Vehicles being able to move and shoot was really a fun thing and made sense with vehicle pay loads.

Now pretty much every vehicle in the game in over priced and not used, with the exception of vehicles that have special rules to let them shoot and move. Id things like monolithes and landraiders....


Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #41 on: January 7, 2009, 04:12:02 PM »
Posted by: deFl0

Quote
It's a shame that Eldar tactics are based on doing nothing but staying alive for most of the game.

Yup, a big reason I went back to mech.

Quote
The whole crippling of skimmer's shooting was really one of my biggest disappointments in the new edition. I thought Vehicles being able to move and shoot was really a fun thing and made sense with vehicle pay loads.


Our skimmers tok a bigger beating than just the loss of firepower overall. They are certainly overcosted till the new codex is done in 5 years or so...

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline stezerok

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #42 on: January 8, 2009, 12:10:23 AM »
Hey Laz,

as always I'm constantly writing up army lists, and have recently started to draft a mechanized list that I thought would be "tournament worthy", and I was rather shocked to see how eerily similar it was to yours (I'm not copying I swear!). I tried thinking of different ways to make the list different from yours while still keeping it competitive lol, but I couldn't think of much in the end.

However, while I was playing with ideas for the list I did come up with a couple of ideas I wanted to share and get your opinion on. First, was the  guardians with shuriken cannon. Just wondering what you'd think of switching them and the serpent out for Jetbikes? And then replace the Scorpions Serpent with TL-Shuriken Cannons for the Serpent with BL's. Does that sound like a still viable option? Or are the jetbikes too squishy?

Also, how important are vectored engines for the falcon? I personally have found with holo's that a weapon destroyed result occurs much more frequently for me, and that the new damage table actually softened the blow to infantry of the vehicles crashing. So in my current incarnation I put Shuriken Cannons underslung, on both the Falcon and the Scorpions Serpent, the one with the Twin-Linked shuriken cannons on top. I figured that since the majority of the game the infantry stayed inside, having a little extra muscle on the tanks themselves might help clear some enemy infantry leading up to turn 5. Does that sound like a good plan? Or are the Vectored's too valuable?

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #43 on: January 8, 2009, 05:09:26 AM »
Posted by: stezerok

Quote
as always I'm constantly writing up army lists, and have recently started to draft a mechanized list that I thought would be "tournament worthy", and I was rather shocked to see how eerily similar it was to yours (I'm not copying I swear!). I tried thinking of different ways to make the list different from yours while still keeping it competitive lol, but I couldn't think of much in the end.

No worries - use whatever works. :)

Quote
However, while I was playing with ideas for the list I did come up with a couple of ideas I wanted to share and get your opinion on. First, was the  guardians with shuriken cannon. Just wondering what you'd think of switching them and the serpent out for Jetbikes?

I went away from jetbikes as they were just too squishy and there wasn't enough terrain to keep them from getting shot to death. One of the strengths of a mech list is that you give the enemy's anti-personel weapons nothing to shoot at early in the game. Feel free to experiment though.

Quote
And then replace the Scorpions Serpent with TL-Shuriken Cannons for the Serpent with BL's. Does that sound like a still viable option? Or are the jetbikes too squishy?

I keep the scorps transport light to attract less fire. Also, I find that my tanks after the first part of the game are always shaken or are moving too fast to fire anyways. I'd take the underslung cannons if I had odd points to spare but they are not the mandatory upgrades they used to be. I nearly always move over 6" possibly with the exception of the flacon on the first turn or two.

Quote
Also, how important are vectored engines for the falcon? I personally have found with holo's that a weapon destroyed result occurs much more frequently for me, and that the new damage table actually softened the blow to infantry of the vehicles crashing.


Considering this tank's priority is to survive to score I take the extra insurance. The odds of being immobilzed are pretty decent especially when you are close to the enemy - it isn't just the CC I worry about but the AP1 melta shots that do it in quickly.
In my first test run w/ my "counts as" Salamander chapter I butchered an Eldar mech list due to all of that melta goodness......don't underestimate ap1 weaponry. Vectored engines means I get at least one more chance to live before my opponnt has an oportunity to try and deal with the cargo.....very important when I'm sitting on the objective.

Lazarus.
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Offline moc065

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #44 on: January 8, 2009, 06:53:04 AM »
I am still using Jetbikes mixed into my Mech Saim-Hann style lists; but its like Lazarus said, the terrain makes a huge difference. In my area we now have several decent pieces of terrain that I can actually fully hide 5-8 Jetbikes behind... so I have options... Otherwise I would go with Serpents more often than Jetbikes... Although I have found the JB HQ squads very good, and I do use them still (vs the Ubert council in Serpent, but part of this is due to theme)...

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Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2009, 10:02:40 AM »
Last waveserpent for the list has been finished and the Stormguardian pirates will be done this week. One week of playtesting left before the next tournament.

(pictures can be found here:)
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=152155.160



Comp for my "Pirate" list wouldn't be so bad w/o Eldrad in it but I just can't bring myself to replace him with the stuff I'll be facing....nothing like getting docked for using "special" characters by a guy using 9 obliterators......m eh, my painting scores should make up for it I guess...

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline stezerok

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2009, 10:14:34 AM »
Last waveserpent for the list has been finished and the Stormguardian pirates will be done this week. One week of playtesting left before the next tournament.

(pictures can be found here:)
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=152155.160



Comp for my "Pirate" list wouldn't be so bad w/o Eldrad in it but I just can't bring myself to replace him with the stuff I'll be facing....nothing like getting docked for using "special" characters by a guy using 9 obliterators......m eh, my painting scores should make up for it I guess...

Lazarus.

Jesus Lazarus! I should have realized that you were one of those ridiculously good painters!

well, I think you will definitely be getting points in painting if you're lacking in comp, but we will of course want to hear your battle reports especially. SO let us know when you finish playing and give us the scoop on how your perform man!

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2009, 10:21:08 AM »
Quote
Jesus Lazarus! I should have realized that you were one of those ridiculously good painters!

No, I'm not that good. My Eldar are done by Scott Bowser who is very good though...lol

I did paint the terminator in that thread though....

I will be certainm to post a battle report of the event. :)

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Offline moc065

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2009, 06:41:17 AM »
EDIT: Updated list from page 2....

Here is the new version I'm likely going to test this Saturday:

1,749 points Ulthwe

HQ
(210) Eldrad
(155) Yriel

TROOPS
(127) 10 storm guardians w/ 2 fusion guns + warlock w/ destructor, witchblade & pistol
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL BL's & spirit stones
(85) 10 defender guardians w/ shuriken cannon
(145) Wave serpent w/ TL BL's & spirit stones.
(60) 5 Dire avengers

ELITES
(192) 10 Striking scorpions w/ exarch, scorpion's claw & stalker.
(110) Wave serpent w/ TL shuriken cannons & spirit stones.

HEAVY
(160) Fire prism w/ holo field & spirit stones.
(160) Fire prism w/ holo field & spirit stones.
(200) Falcon w/ EML, holo field, spirit stones & vectored engines


This list is at the point of playtesting so on with a review.

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential  This area is completely covered; but there are slight modifications or configurations that could be improved on without seriously effecting other areas of the list. Thus Very Good 0.9
2.. Anti-MEQ potential Not a whole lot of dedicated AM, but there are severall combo's available, this area is also covered well enough that altering it would effect other areas in some adverse way. Thus Above Average 0.7
3.. Anti-Horde potential OK, Flamers, BS-Guided DA, DOOM, Templates... I think its pretty well cover the Crowd Control issues. Thus Very Good 0.9
4.. Ranged Firepower potential Oddly enough it doesn't have a whole lot of Ranged fire; but its mobility and mid range make up for some short comings so I still think its pretty good overall. Thus Good 0.8
5.. Assault potential The "Wonder Twins" and Scorpions do give it a pretty serious Punch unit, and they can split off to do some Solo work, and/or avoid Combats as needed, so overall I think its covered. Thus Good 0.8
6.. Scoring Units / point level OK, lets face it, 4 would be better at this points range; but it would seriously mess with the Synergy and it not always pure numbers that win games... this list has the potential to only score 3 times; but it can also Contest a lot of others, so there is something to be said for this ability. Thus Above Average 0.7
7.. Durability or Resilience Not so much as VP or KP denial (although it is there); but the list itself is pretty serioulsy resilient. Factor in a little movement, distance, Fortune, etc and it only gets better. Thus Very Good 0.9
8.. Flexability I think that aside from very specific lists, this one can face near anything and do well; but Reserve Mech is promising to be a frontrunner for Eldar in 5th Ed..... I do see it suffereing vs specific armies; but I doubt that I have seen very many lists that are as flexible for Eldar within 5th Ed. Thus Very Good 0.9
9.. Mission Capabiliy Certainly Mission Capable for 5th; it is a little KP heavy though (Orkz go lighter, etc) but overall its ready. Thus Very Good 0.9
10. Dynamics and/or Theme I love the Reserve/Mech theme, I am not jumping for joy about having to use Craftworld overlaps and/or specifically Named Characters to get the job done well. However, if you look at Eldar as Eldar, and not factions or craftworlds I don't see any big issue with it. Composition will still hurt with 3 HS and no FA's but its actually fast enough to not need FA units... Thus overall I still score it as Good 0.8

Rating = 8.3/10 Others might score it differently; but I see this as probably one of the most potentially competitive lists that I have seen for Eldar in 5th Ed. The Reserve/Mech incorperation along with denial and presision strike ability combine to do things that allow flexibility and resilience without giving up too many other things. I personnally would not want to face off vs this list, especially with a skilled General such as Lazarus actually directing it.

CaHG
« Last Edit: February 7, 2009, 06:14:51 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2009, 07:08:37 AM »
Finished my "testing" of the list with games vs. Orks, Blood angels and imperial guard all with solid victories. I'll be ready for the upcoming tourney.

I'm replacing both Yriel & Eldrad with "counts as" models as soon as my parts for the conversions come in. This should likely help with my "pirate" theme wich will likely improve the comp further.

Quote
Rating = ?/10

Ooohh, I got a ? ! That is pretty good right? (lol)

Lazarus
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Offline moc065

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2009, 12:40:09 PM »
Your review is done Lazarus, and the score is 8.2.. incidently its probably one of the most competitive lists I have seen for Eldar in 5th Ed, and I would not wish to face off vs it (especially if your driving)...

I wish you all the best of luck with the list, and I will tell that my list (that is simular in style and we discussed previously) has also done very well so far. But I see real difficulty to beat this list with mine and your idea of "Counts as" has serious merit to those tournies that are still using Soft Scores.

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Offline Chaplain Swordwind

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2009, 12:47:46 PM »
Since we're suppose to be back to rating lists, I'll go ahead and reserve this spot for when I get around to it.  Moc's on top of things, I'm still trying to catch up.  ;)
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:29 PM »
wow, thanks for the high praise. :)

I'll post a batrep of the tourney.

Quote
your idea of "Counts as" has serious merit to those tournies that are still using Soft Scores.

I'm really hoping it will - so far, of the people I've talked to they did indeed say that they would score it differently if I had cool conversions with backgrounds etc.

I'll be starting that thread tonight...


Lazarus.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 03:27:25 PM by Lazarus »
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2009, 06:24:12 AM »
Heh, I'll reserve a spot for rating this list too. The real fun will be seeing what others outside of 40KO give it for the sake of comp scores.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2009, 06:30:40 AM »
It's always an uphill battle with Eldar trying to get good comp while being effective at the same time. My current project will attempt to adress that issue. When I'm done, the only way I'll be getting docked comp is out of spite as the fluff will fit everything. They will not have that fluff excuse to fall back upon. (lol)

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"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline GoofyCommy

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2009, 08:25:09 AM »
I'll post a batrep of the tourney.

With pictures please.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2009, 08:46:14 AM »
I will try to get pictures but there is always so much to do and so little time at a tournament to do so properly.

I'm not going to have my new display board ready yet either.....the old one is a bit smallish for that many tanks. :(

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Ibushi

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2009, 04:04:01 PM »
I really like this list, and I agree it seems on the cutting edge of competitive for our sorry souls this edition..But I very rarely play at 1750. Usually just 1850 or 1500. As such I have been thinking about how you would squeeze or expand this core list.

To 1850, If you lose 2 scorpions, drop SS from the Guardian WS, and the HFs from the Prisms, you can squeeze in 6 dragons w/ DBF in a WS w/ TL SC & SS. Of course losing two members of your combat squad is a little rough, but as Rage put it, the effectiveness of the squad usually peaks at 8..Besides, adding in 5 meltas and a heavy flamer seems pretty worth it for me...

Now, squeezing down to 1500 - this seems a much more ambitious transition, as pretty much all of the fat has been cut from the 1750pt list, and 250pts is not an easy subtraction. One of the only things I can think of is to reduce Eldrad to a normal Fortune/Doom seer, and Yriel to a normal PW autarch.. =/ and then lose the same things as mentioned above I guess... But with so many losses, would you still play this list? I feel like at that point you could potentially just construct a more effective list for 1500pts...

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Offline Lazarus

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2009, 04:54:31 PM »
Posted by: Ibushi

Quote
I really like this list, and I agree it seems on the cutting edge of competitive for our sorry souls this edition..But I very rarely play at 1750. Usually just 1850 or 1500. As such I have been thinking about how you would squeeze or expand this core list.

I'd love to play at 1850 or even better yet - 2000.


Quote
To 1850, If you lose 2 scorpions, drop SS from the Guardian WS, and the HFs from the Prisms, you can squeeze in 6 dragons w/ DBF in a WS w/ TL SC & SS. Of course losing two members of your combat squad is a little rough, but as Rage put it, the effectiveness of the squad usually peaks at 8..Besides, adding in 5 meltas and a heavy flamer seems pretty worth it for me...

Holo fields are mandatory for my heavy skimmers. Too much drop troop melta makes leaving the holofields off very dangerous. Also, I am not in agreement of Rage's mystical 8 man aspect units. In 5th edition, I want my CC units to be full units which helps me win combat rez (more attacks) and helps with wound allocation. The only aspects I'd take under 10 were if they were riding in a falcon which only holds 6 anyways - units such as dragons for example.

Quote
Now, squeezing down to 1500 - this seems a much more ambitious transition, as pretty much all of the fat has been cut from the 1750pt list, and 250pts is not an easy subtraction. One of the only things I can think of is to reduce Eldrad to a normal Fortune/Doom seer, and Yriel to a normal PW autarch.. =/ and then lose the same things as mentioned above I guess... But with so many losses, would you still play this list? I feel like at that point you could potentially just construct a more effective list for 1500pts...

I wouldn't bother playing this list at 1500 - mech is too expensive for that as our skimmers are over priced in 5th edition as it is....

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline Kaminari

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Re: 1750 mech list (new test run)
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2009, 04:37:28 AM »
I basically played a 1500 version successfully in last week's tourney (46 participants, top players fro all over Germany). Originally just for training to get a feel for the "bigger" version.
Kept all 6 tanks, but played naked prisms, dropped Yriel and the Vector Engines of the Falcon and upgraded the Shurikencannon of the Scorpion's ride to an EML. The amount of tanks was its best defense at this point level for me and the VP denial worked fine. The Prisms were held back to use their range to their advantage and reduce return fire and used ramming attacks after loosing their main weapon.
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