Topic: Phoenix Lords: Can They Really 'Return to Life' During a Battle?

[Irisado]

Spoilers regarding Path of the Warrior in this thread.  Please do not read any further if you want to read this book, and you have not yet done so







In Path of the Warrior, it describes how Karandras' suit is simply put on by a Striking Scorpion Exarch during a battle, and the Phoenix Lord returns instantly to the fray after having fallen.  I found this a very unconvincing piece of writing, and it very much seems like a piece of dramatic licence to me, so I took a look through the background material which I have at my disposal, and while there are references on pages 11 and 82 of the second edition Eldar codex to suggest that is how the process works, there is no indication that this would happen during a battle.

Is it really plausible for an Exarch to suddenly forget about the battle going on around him, and suddenly put on the suit of a fallen Phoenix Lord?  Surely, he would just be cut down by opposing forces?  Even though there is no shrine ritual as is the case for becoming an Exarch, it just seemed far too convenient for the Exarch in Path of the Warrior to suddenly become Karandras while the craftworld is under attack all around him.  What are your thoughts on this?

[Shadowbreed]

The way the rest of that story is written it seemed plausible.

When he puts on the Exarch suit, he slowly stops being himself, and becomes the exarch.
It seems plausible, that a much much stronger presence such as karandras would be able to do this near instantly.

Then given the fact that karandras would be of much greater value then an exarch, I could see this being done even while the battle goes on, specifically to get the phoenix lord back in the fight as soon as possible.

It's been a while since I read it, but didn't they also just kill pretty much all the opposition in that spot?

[Tethesis]

I think the part that doesn't make much sense for you is that he stopped the fighting to manually put on a new piece of armor, while in the book it was more like a Sailor Moon transformation if I recall correctly, the armor just puts itself on the "Exarch".

[Boss Ard'Ragger]

From the way I read it, its more of a blending of souls than actually putting the armour on.  As he approached the armour he kind of went into the world where Karandras and his Fallen were of a very young age and the joined hand-in-hand to see him.  his soul was able to heal the armour and therefore keep the phoenoix lord fighting on.  Wating the next time the phoenix lord needs souls for re-gen.  My 2 cents worth

[Lachdonin]

As Ard'Ragger said, they way its described in the book is less Korlandril putting on the armour, and more him be subsumed by the entity of Kharandras. Korlandril didn't stop to put on Kharandras' armour, an act which would most certainly have gotten him shot, but was rather absorbed by Khandras to repair the damage to his own 'body' (by this explanation, i tend to view the Phoenix Lords more as animated suits of armour with a full consciousness, which would explain the swirling eddies of energy Korlandril saw in Khandras' wound).

In this explanation, the Phoenix Lords are not simply really old suits of Exarch armour with over 10,000 years of experience in their collective souls, but rather more like demi-gods. They feed on and possess servants of like mind and temperament (Their Exarchs mostly) to sustain their continuous existence. This means they are something altogether different from the Exarchs, and are more Representative of the Eldar psyche than simple warriors.

Given the highly mystical nature of the Craftworld Eldar (something which i find very much lacking in the Path books) i don't see this as a particular issue. I don't even really take much affront to the 'joining' happening in the heat of battle. It just goes to show that the Phoenix Lords are an eternal aspect of an age of eternal war. This is one of those rare instances in which new lore material is introduced, contradictory to older (Phoenix Lords being just more powerful Exarch armours being the older version), where i feel the new stuff genuinely serves the universe better.

[Ghostofman]

In raid on Kastorel-Novem doom of Mymeara a Pheonix lord is brought back "during" a battle. In that book the exarch puts on the armor, but then a farseer did a little ritual to finish things off. It's a pretty brief ritual, and IIRC included to donning of the armor as part of it, but there wasn't much after that. And once it was completed the Pheonix Lord was ready to rock.

That said the Pheonix Lord in question had been out of commission for a long bloody time, so the Farseer might have been jump starting the process, recharging the battery so to speak, and as such isn't needed for later resurrections...

[Sydonia]

I think I am mostly in agreement with Lachdonin on how the process happens. It's been close to 2 years since I read the book, and in my opinion there is some slightly conflicting information in the fluff.

First, I see soul stones as individual conduits to the infinity circuit. The ancient warsuit that each Phoenix Lord dons is undoubtedly covered in them. It is a collective conscious and one that I believe coalesces into the way of the scorpion.

The next issue is if the armor is just armor brought to life by the soulsones (believable from the energies that were seen in the wounds) or if it is actually the last living exarch taking on the armor.

******Possible spoilers from another book*******
My best point of reference to the contrary would be in the latest Night Lords book Void Stalker where Jain Zar is injured in the leg and seems to be suffering from a flesh trauma that any normal living being would. I won't elaborate further in case anyone hasn't read it.
******End spoilers*******

A wardrobe change seems the least likely though in my opinion. At least in the heat of battle. It would make more sense that such legendary beings are more "immortal" by being energies driven by the collective consciousness of the greatest Eldar warriors that exchange their life forces through spirit stones.

[Shadowbreed]

Having finally read the story in IA11, I am now confused..


*********And possible spoilers from IA11 follow***********
In there a phoenix lord is revived by a ritual performed by the farseer.
Although granted the circumstances are a bit different as it's not an exarch but a warrior being used, and the PL has been dormant for many centuries.. but still that would imply a ritual is needed imho.
*********End spoilers*********************

[Ghostofman]

Having finally read the story in IA11, I am now confused..


*********And possible spoilers from IA11 follow***********
In there a phoenix lord is revived by a ritual performed by the farseer.
Although granted the circumstances are a bit different as it's not an exarch but a warrior being used, and the PL has been dormant for many centuries.. but still that would imply a ritual is needed imho.
*********End spoilers*********************

Remember that that scene it written from the perspective of the inquisitor, not the eldar or a neutral all knowing party. The Warrior in question was probably an exarch and just mislabeled a warrior by the inquisitor. Craftworld Mymeara still had shadow spectres (remember there were several of them chasing those dudes in the Tauros Venator) so they had a shrine and by extension exarchs.

Now, my question is doesn't the Pheonix Lords armor contain spirit stones, just like all other eldar armor? It seems to me that a Pheonix Lords resurrection in another warrior/exarch could essentially be the soul/souls of the armor overpower that of the eldar within. From this perspective it wouldn't take very long for a lesser should to be overpowered, especially if it's a willing kindred spirit. Like I said before, in the case of Doom of Mymeara it might have been that the souls, having sat around for so frelling long, had ,gone into some kind of magical state of hibernation. The farseer wasn't performing the ritual to resurrect the Pheonix lord so much as just waking up the souls within the armor.

I'm just saying its an option...

[Lonewolf]

Well in the old fluff (and iirc), the armour of exarchs had a kinda mini infinity circuit, since the violent nature of their souls could not be allowed to join the craftworld infinity circuit. So what happenen was that the souls of the exarchs remained within the armour, while the most powerfull (in terms of willpower, usually the first one to carry the armour) soul basically stays in control. There was not really a finite border between a Phoenix Lord and an Exarch.

When the armor got damaged (as back then the PLs where a bit like thousand sons, basically animated suits of armour) badly, another Eldar could put it on. Over time his body and mind would fuse and be absorbed by the armour, his soul joining the infinity circuit. Thats where actually much of the power of an PL came from, from the psychic might of the combined soules resting in the armour.

In more recent fluff things have changed quite a bit, the whole concept of the empty shells of armour got dropped, among other things. Still, i prefer the old interpretation of the Phoenix Lords. It shows very well, that they have sacreficed more than most living (and dead) Eldar (save those who have been taken by Slaanesh).

Now could such a process happen in battle? Without having read the book, id say it depends upon how damaged the armour was. I suspect that the armour itself can be put on relative quick. Cumbersome knightarmour that takes an hour, and the help of a squire to put on dosent sound very Eldar to me. Id doubt, that the new bearer would be instantly up to full power, as the fusion, if only of mind and soul takes time i suspect, depending upon the willpower and character of the new bearer.

[Nascosto]

by this explanation, i tend to view the Phoenix Lords more as animated suits of armour with a full consciousness, which would explain the swirling eddies of energy Korlandril saw in Khandras' wound

The animated suits of armor theory is actually one I've been holding on to myself for awhile, and it was kind of reinforced by GW when they redid some of the fluff for the DE in the last codex. It concerns specifically Drazhar, which at this point it is fairly accepted that he is in fact Arhra (the founder of the striking scopions) who turned to the dark. Anyway, getting back to the point the codex fluff points out that even most of the members in the dark city think that Drazhar's armor is empty...which itself fits in with the whole replace by an exarch thing. The Dark Eldar have no exarchs so you end up with this murderous suit of armor with nobody inside that can still fight but has never in the history of the city spoken a word.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

*********And possible spoilers from IA11 follow***********
In there a phoenix lord is revived by a ritual performed by the farseer.
Although granted the circumstances are a bit different as it's not an exarch but a warrior being used, and the PL has been dormant for many centuries.. but still that would imply a ritual is needed imho.
*********End spoilers*********************

Well of course it's gonna be a more involved process if the armour's been sitting there unused for centuries. The way you describe that ritual, I see it as like using jump leads to start a car with a flat battery and a cold engine. The POTW version's like restarting the car while the engine's still hot and the battery's got some decent charge in it.

[Poseidal]

There was a short vignette in WD 236 where Karandras came into a Scorpion Shrine, with several holes blown into him. The next scene, there was Karandras next to an empty Exarch suit, who with the new memories went to talk to some of the Craftworld leaders about some upcoming threat.

[Preedy1978]

 It's a very good question indeed, considering how every Eldar life is precious, to just "use up" Exarchs so that a Phoenix Lord can keep on living seems very  "imperium" to me!

 It doesn't seem too far fetched anyway, in response to the OP's question, however, I always figured a small ritual was required, or even a small amount of time was required for the consciousness of the Phoenix Lord to overcome the sentience of the Exarch/Eldar donning the armour in question. It's always been a little ambigious, in all honesty. Given all of the fluff I've read throughout the years of playing Eldar, I've never really seen or read a very detailed explanation into this, and I think it'd be nice if GW at some point in time actually cleared the matter up for us fluff followers

[Lachdonin]

It's a very good question indeed, considering how every Eldar life is precious, to just "use up" Exarchs so that a Phoenix Lord can keep on living seems very  "imperium" to me!

Path of the Warrior (And to a lesser extent Eldar Prophesy) indicate that Exarch's have a deep rooted loathing of their status. They view being the Young King as not only an honour, but envy the Young King's opportunity to escape from their cycle of bloodshed and death. Considering it seems that, joining a Phoenix Lord is similar in the end result (Only the Phoenix Lord remains) it's probably something of an enviable possition, to those few who know about it.

Also remember that Exarch's themselves are a nessessity to Eldar culture, but are themselves no longer really part of the population. They can't breed, can't interact with the Craftworld at large, and are essentially quarenteened from the Infinity Circuit. Losing an Exarch is somewhat unfortunate from a military standpoint, and thus bad for the longterm military standpoint of the Craftworld, but in terms of 'losing an Eldar life' it's already gone as soon as someone becomes an Exarch.

[Poseidal]

Exarchs are devoted to Khaine, and in effect are already lost to Eldar society since they don't allow Exarch spirit stones to be put with the rest of the infinity circuit. In other words, they're already dead.