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Author Topic: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads  (Read 4293 times)

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Offline Calamity

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Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« on: January 31, 2016, 03:38:09 PM »
Can those who play the game more often tell me how the two different IG troop choices compare to each other, and how they are performing overall in the meta game these days?

And yes, it's to find ways to possibly improve them if I have to.  ;)

I know that Vets are the better choice for mechanized armies, and they obviously pack more special weapons and have specialized gear, and are a bit cheaper overall, but lack numbers (and IG need numbers).  Platoons meanwhile give you numbers, Orders and lots of heavy weapons, but will obviously be more expensive overall, and require a lot of models.

Which one do you guys prefer?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 03:48:06 PM by Captain Calamity »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2016, 09:19:03 PM »
My most successful [as in, I actually won one game in 7th with IG, instead of loosing horribly] was using Vets. Key to them being able to take maximum damage output per transport.

And Carapace armour. The Emperor loves a man in Carapace armour more than any of his other subjects. I can't say enough good about Carapace. Cover saves are disappearing in my world. Which isn't so bad for MEQ, but when Bolters, Gauss, Pulse and Eldar non-Scats are punching through your armour save, things have got to change.

In Pods, while supported by Dreads in Pods. With Scouts in camo. And a Techmarine to boost that cover save. I mean, not everything ignores cover. :)

And technically I was cheating, because I was twin-linking any Emperor's Wrath shot that was within range of a Vox, instead of just one unit. And I won with 2 infantry models and one Dreadnought on the board. Well, and 3 Drop Pods that were out of range to do anything. My opponent had his WK about 6 inches from the objective [Thanks for ending on turn 6!] and some JB that had failed to get a decent "jump move" in their assault phase.

For the difference in the base unit cost, the additional BS and weapon selection is too good. And then you get Carapace. Literally, the only time I use Platoons is to get cheap bodies to bubble-wrap tanks [access to Conscripts] to give them a mobile cover save. Ablative armour, I guess you could say. Inability to move effectively makes them a liability. Without Carapace, there's nowhere for me to move, that my FAST moving opponents can't immediately capitalize on.

So yeah, a Chimera is wasted on a Platoon squad, really, so I say Vets for any and all situations that aren't specifically just to give a cover save to something more valuable.

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #2 on: February 1, 2016, 07:15:10 AM »
I can say in all my experience against Guard the Vets are the way to go. Plasma and melta vets can really go to town against just about anything when working in tandem. My brother rocks 3x Plasma Vets in almost every list and with Primaris psyker support it creates a 24" aura of death that is very difficult to deal with.

I literally cannot go anywhere near his Vets (especially when supported by tanks) before at least 1 Vet squad goes down.

The heavy weapons are really nice, especially with orders but I'd go with vets all day long.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #3 on: February 1, 2016, 02:33:17 PM »
I've been playing small games, but I'm really beginning to appreciate the Grenadier (Vet in Carapace) as a solid troop. They fold in assault, yeah, but they have good damage output and reasonable numbers for what you get. A mix of special and heavy weapons in a squad makes them very versatile, even on foot.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #4 on: February 1, 2016, 03:03:08 PM »
Just as I suspected.  There's a lot of love for vets (and for good reason) but not much for infantry platoons.  You know what I'll be planning to do now, don't you?  ;)

And I do like Vets.  Which is why my first new army list is an Emperor's Blade Assault Company.  They're vets but better!

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #5 on: February 2, 2016, 03:14:32 PM »
I actually think conscripts are great. No special weapons, but it's not plasma that kills terminators it's ones! With a commissar and frfrrf order they are a cheap unit. March them up the board into cover and watch the opponent roll them ones! If you can prescience them as well! And I even had one game with them invisible. They were mvp then!
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #6 on: February 2, 2016, 04:34:01 PM »
Death of a thousand cuts indeed.  8)

I can't believe I forgot the conscripts.  They've always been a good choice ever since they were first created.  Cheap and plentiful.  It's just a shame you have to pay the infantry squad tax first.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #7 on: February 2, 2016, 04:48:30 PM »
Yeah, the infantry tax often defeats the cheapness of conscripts. Unless I want platoons anyway, I'm not really saving too many points with conscripts.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #8 on: February 2, 2016, 05:01:47 PM »
scribbles down ideas

How do you guys use your platoon command squads?  Special weapons I assume, since platoon standards are pants.  Actually, they're worse than pants, because pants are at least useful. :P

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #9 on: February 2, 2016, 07:45:02 PM »
Give 'em flamers, stick 'em in a Chimera--cheap way to make units that bust through your lines regret it.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #10 on: February 2, 2016, 09:24:41 PM »
I usually give them a Vox. Sometimes I get crazy, and give them a Bolter, if I have a spare point. Every now and again, I give them Meltabombs, just for the shiggles.

I used to have the Platoon Commander man my Quad-gun, since he had better BS.

These days, I usually drop them out of a Vendetta [when I use Platoons...] because they're a dirt cheap squad that can drop on an objective, hide out of LOS, and boost the effectiveness of a nearby "combat" unit. Hypothetically, of course. My Chimerae almost never make it to an objective in once piece... the squad inside only slightly more often. They have ObSec, for what paltry benefit it gives a 5-man Guard squad, but I can say it made a difference in exactly 1/7 games I played with Guard, and it was the only time it did. In that case, I lost by 2 points instead of 5. In your face, Fire Dragon Exarch, that still killed 2 of my dudes and almost made me run away. ;)

If I'm not using a Vendetta, I've used them as part of my "Rear Screen" when bubble-wrapping a parking lot. They're, again, hypothetically out of LOS for a turn or maybe even two while I advance, which lets them issue orders hopefully without being drilled in the face. I took a bolter, a flamer, and a Vox. Mostly for the shiggles, the only useful item there is the Vox.

« Last Edit: February 2, 2016, 09:26:29 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline TheEldarGuy

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #11 on: February 9, 2016, 12:42:06 AM »
I have been looking into this very question. I realised that the Vets had more punch than a single squad, and with the right choice of Special Weapons, hits about as hard as two normal squads. For their points, it's really not so bad either. A vet squad and transport comes in better than most other armies' better than the norm squads.

The real question, is whether to go the Tempestus or Veterans. Both come in at similar costs and stat line wise, they're identical.

However, they are not. TheTempestus has the hotshots and in effect the combination of two Vet doctrines.

Finally the Vets use a Troop slot versus the Elite slot. At the moment AM still use the CAD for the setup, so the 2-6-3-3-3 setup has to do for now. Which means being economical about our options; therefore using one Elite for up to 3 squads of Scions and a Command squad, leave the troops spots open for more platoons.

Offline Tallarn Commander

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #12 on: February 9, 2016, 02:33:32 PM »
This is a great discussion.  As people have mentioned, platoons, conscripts, and vets have different roles.

My preference is to use all 3 in the same list.  I’ve found that most of my wins occur when I use 1 or 2 infantry platoons with 35-45 troopers each, 1 or 2 conscript platoon of 30-40 troopers each, and 2 to 3 mechanized vet squads. 

The infantry platoon sits in my deployment zone and serves as a static firebase while bubble-wrapping my more static tanks.  By end game, the conscript platoon(s) and mechvets have generally pushed up-field to the middle of the board and onto objectives.  I have difficulty getting across the board and into the enemy deployment zone (but that's a problem that has plagued IG since the 4th edition shift away from victory point based games). 

I’ve found that when I use just platoons and conscripts or just mechvets, then I don’t do as well.  But that's just my play-style.

With regard to my PCS', my favorite use is to keep it cheap by giving them 3-4 flamers (and sometimes a heavy flamer) and stick 'em behind a blob, in a chimera, or in a vendetta.


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Offline Calamity

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #13 on: February 9, 2016, 03:12:31 PM »
@ Tallarn Commander

That is interesting.  You say that you use all three in the same list for the best results?  How do you find Stormtroopers these days?

Offline Tallarn Commander

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #14 on: February 9, 2016, 04:52:04 PM »
Cpt. Calamity,

Stormtroopers’ mileage varies greatly for me.

2015 Stormtrooper Performance
Last spring I took 2 squads of allied MT to 5 league games.  They were small melta suicide drop squads:  a command squad with 4 meltas, and a 5-trooper squad with 2 meltas.  Both squads performed abysmally.  They stayed in reserve too long, or they scattered off target, or they shot and missed (usually flubbing orders rolls).  They did zilch for me during the league except for 1 game where they dropped in and assisted a conscript blob in seizing a table quarter from a drop pod SM squad and a scout squad.

Summer 2014 Performance
However, in the summer of 2014, I brought a bigger stormtrooper detachment to 2 tournaments and they did much better.  I used 25 stormtroopers:  a 5-trooper command squad with 4 meltas in a valkyrie, a 10 trooper scion squads with plasmas, and a 10-trooper scion squad with meltaguns.  They worked very well indeed.  They dropped in next to and supported the conscripts and mechvets in the midfield.  In these configurations the rest of my list usually consisted of a couple of mechvets, a couple of other tanks (russes, hellhounds, artillery, what have you), a CCS with the officer of the fleet, 1 firebase infantry platoon, and a large conscript blob. 

I guess based on my experience, my stormtroopers want me to go big or go home.  They want me to dedicate at least 600-ish points to them before they begin to give returns. My troopers refuse to perform if I just take 1 or 2 min-sized suicide squads.



Offline Calamity

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Re: Fact Finding: Infantry Platoons Versus Veteran Squads
« Reply #15 on: February 9, 2016, 05:52:54 PM »
So it's go big or go home.  I like this.  When I was using them years ago in 5th edition it was quite the opposite, but back then they had other deployment options besides Deep Strike.

I now have 25 of them myself, but then I screwed up 5 of them so, now I've only got 20.  :P A command squad and 3 5 man units.

But your idea of combining the 3 different units together on 1 list has me interested.  I like the idea of Guard lists that don't just boil down to mechanized vets.
« Last Edit: February 9, 2016, 05:54:32 PM by Captain Calamity »

 


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