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Offline Wombats

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 09:15:45 AM »
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*Shrike (again) with fleeting, infiltrating scouts (6 of them). Don't know if thats cheesy but would be quite funny

Done it. 

Plus Scout Bikers, Assault Squad infiltrating with Shrike and some Land Speeders. 

To take it to its extreme it should be two Scout Biker units and the Assault Squad. 

That would tie up the maximum number of shooty units in close combat and put Melta Bombs on any tank not hiding up the back. 

Played it twice, once they figured out how to deploy against the first turn charge it became tough to win. 

Fought against a balanced Marine army to a standstill, ended up a draw on Kill Points. 

Damn fun, though. 

Never would have happened in the old codex. 
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Offline Spiritwarroir

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 09:51:48 AM »
As a Ghost eldar player I think that the experience of the new codex is not bad.  And the "under powered" old codex I think stemmed more from the fact that SM are often the FIRST army of a player.  So how do you make the codex powerful enough to allow new players to be completive but not allow old hands to walk over every one.  So the new codex is a compromise that works.  I have played three games whit the new codex, Old SM player set me on my butt, New SM player lost due to kill points, fought old hand to draw.  So I think the codex is fine, not unbalancing but still new and being learned.

Offline verdonian_XII

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 12:14:42 PM »
i had my first match agains marines this monday, all i have everer said about owerpowered is now gone.
(his wanguard&chaplain shot at a guardsman squad wo ran away leaving them in the middle of my army were 99% f it had clear firing lines needless to say they were reduced to dust in milliseconds)
it is a wery balanced list, marines have as i see it become better, expensiver (and therefore fewer) but not thougher they are still cut down by amassed lasguns and demolisher cannons, and now every marine casualty is more of a problem than before
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Offline Starrakatt

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 01:28:51 PM »
Quote from: verdonian_XII
...it is a wery balanced list, marines have as i see it become better, expensiver (and therefore fewer) but not thougher they are still cut down by amassed lasguns and demolisher cannons, and now every marine casualty is more of a problem than before
   Ah... no. I am sorry to disagree with you here: Tactical squads got a bit pricier (as did the Powerfist option) but they have the Special weapon/Heavy Weapon price built in: With the basic built the new SM come cheaper than they were with base options, only if you buy them a lot of toys do they get of about the same cost or a bit costier than before.
  Termies and generic ICs are the same cost, Assault Squads, Bikes, Scout Bikes and Scouts are cheaper with more toys/special Rules.
   Vehicles are costier, although the Rhinos and Razorbacks dropped a lot. I don't know about Devastators nor Honor Guard, they may be pricier or not, and Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans are sure pricey along with new Named Characters but they are New stuff and shouldn't be factored when comparating the cost of Old SM VS the New SM.

   And now all SM come with Pistols, Krak Grenades (I think) and Combat Tactics. Space Marines (not their vehicles) are NOT pricier, they are cheaper.

   Starky
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:29:56 PM by Starrakatt, Khornate Farseer »

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Offline Ner'Zhul

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 02:11:56 PM »
Please don't use the whole Pistol + Grenades as an argument that they are cheaper.  It is well established that these upgrades are result of codex creep.

As for the others, yes, Assault squads got cheaper, but that was cause they were over priced to begin with.  Most of the things that were brought down in cost were things that were not worth their points.

Now as for the free heavy weapon argument.  It is logistically more expensive to field tac squads than it was in 4th edition.  Before you scream that they get free stuff, listen and think for a moment.  Gone are the days of the 6 man las/plas squad.  Gone are the days of any squad that numbers below 10 having a special weapon.  There is little to no reason not to buy a 10 man squad now.  This means that you have to invest fully into a tac squad to get the most out of it.  This is the hidden cost that is now associated with Tac Squads.  It completely balances out the free bes that are given.  The cost of the ML/MM + Flamer are basically subsumed in the +1 point increase to a marine, the only real free thing is the veteran srgt.  This and Combat Squading are the trade offs of not being able to vary the size of your squads.

The options that were less than appealing in 4th have become the cheapest options in 5th, in order to get ppl to field them.  The previously obvious options from 4th have had their costs increased (mildly)

Overall the Codex point cost ratios have not shifted to the cheaper side, nor the more expensive side.  We just have different trade offs now.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 03:16:22 PM »
Quote from: nerzuhl
Please don't use the whole Pistol + Grenades as an argument that they are cheaper.  It is well established that these upgrades are result of codex creep.
   Of course. However most of the other, older Codices doesn't have them or still have to pay for them. The whole point of this thread is it's Title and to justify any argument in here we have to compare the new 'dex to what the SM were in their previous incarnation. And Codex Creep is surely a factor to be considered in this Thread. ;)

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As for the others, yes, Assault squads got cheaper, but that was cause they were over priced to begin with.  Most of the things that were brought down in cost were things that were not worth their points.
   And Bikes, Scout Bikes, Scouts, Rhinos. I agree that they were overpriced and I also believe that the cost paid in DA/BA Codice is right... for 4th ed. 5th ed and the Run rule changed all the point costs related to what is supposed to be considered 'Fast'.

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Now as for the free heavy weapon argument.  It is logistically more expensive to field tac squads than it was in 4th edition.  Before you scream that they get free stuff, listen and think for a moment.  Gone are the days of the 6 man las/plas squad.  Gone are the days of any squad that numbers below 10 having a special weapon.  There is little to no reason not to buy a 10 man squad now.  This means that you have to invest fully into a tac squad to get the most out of it.  This is the hidden cost that is now associated with Tac Squads.  It completely balances out the free bes that are given.  The cost of the ML/MM + Flamer are basically subsumed in the +1 point increase to a marine, the only real free thing is the veteran srgt.  This and Combat Squading are the trade offs of not being able to vary the size of your squads.
   Where did you hear me scream, really? My comments have been rather mild in this thread so far.

   So, most of your argument hold in that you have to pay more for more Marines. Big deal, you had too before. Except that you had to pay more for basic upgrades. Having bigger and/or more Combat Squads also work in favor of 5th ed, so the 'balancing out' you speak off isn't big deal if you ask me. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.
   Also, the weapon upgrades included in the base cost of a Tac Marine are some of the more efficient weaponry in their kind in the actual edition, with the reign of Hordish armies and AP 1 goodness.

Quote
The options that were less than appealing in 4th have become the cheapest options in 5th, in order to get ppl to field them.  The previously obvious options from 4th have had their costs increased (mildly)

Overall the Codex point cost ratios have not shifted to the cheaper side, nor the more expensive side.  We just have different trade offs now.
   Agreed, high power weaponry and some options got pricier (or at last didn't change), relinquishing high AV tank hunting to where it belongs: Devastators, Tanks and other goodies while CC power was shifted even more to the true CC units.

   However, if one is satisfied over basic Tactical Squads' weaponry (add a fist or Sword or Meltagun) they are indeed cheaper.

  A side Note: Of the four Space marine players at the LGC, one is playing Blood Angels, one Dark Angels, another Space Wolf and the last Salamanders. The three first aren't touched by that 5th 'dex (except to drool in spite over the SM one) and the Sally player rarely fell for the Laz/Plas cheese and ran full Tac squads most of the time: The new 'dex just gave him a good load of free points for just what he used to run...

   Starky

P.S. I do not whine against Marines, I find them cool and more fluffy than ever, just trying to look at the new Codex without with a clear and realist mind.

Edited grammar and FAIL wording.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 05:43:03 PM by Starrakatt, Khornate Farseer »

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Offline Yyseth

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 04:04:27 PM »
As an Eldar player primarily, having had my marines in a box for the best part of 2 years, I'm gonna say simply that it's not overpowered. It can be abused, but I'm good at recognising abusive powergamers, and usually stick a holofalcon on the table to absorb their firepower while the useful elements of my army do the damage.
In order to overpower any part of the army, it requires a fair few points which sacrifice a lot in other areas, and rarely have I found a powergamer army balanced enough to withstand much of a prodding. At my local store I tend to find the SM players go for lots of vanguards, and very few thunderfires, with redeemers and crusaders popping up. A box of FD's takes care of everything, as one thing I've noticed is that with plenty of costly small squads of tooled up elites FD's are nolonger a one-trick pony. Most armies have a dedicated AT unit that's got a lot more use against the marines...
And having looked at the thunderfire cannon, I can't really help but laugh... That weapon can be usefully gotten rid of with a falcon in one turn, no problems.
The champions are tougher, Captains and Masters have their ws6 and some funky rules, they do give me pause for thought, but it wouldn't be Space Marines without some dashing death factory leading from the front.
I think in summary, a balanced army is easy to make, an overpowered army tends to be a very restricted affair with some costly downsides.

I still don't much miss 3 shot starcannons...
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 04:23:56 PM »
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I still don't much miss 3 shot starcannons...

Except the nerf and a price hike is bullamphetamine parrot.

Offline sgt. Brutal

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #28 on: November 1, 2008, 07:32:57 AM »
As a new player most of my first games were against a semi power gamer who collected dark angels, i could not see why his army was so good because of this and it nearly turned me off 40k but luckily when i persuaded him to play with his tau i nearly beat him (karskrin shot off objective with rail gun in the last turn!). I still think dark angels are bland and if not overpowered on the upper limit of balenced.
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Offline Qui-Gon Jinn

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #29 on: November 1, 2008, 11:13:36 AM »
We are not speaking of the Dark Angels Codex, sgt. Brutal, but the new Codex Space Marines.  Two completely different books.

As for me, with the Codex being the new book on the block, it has yet to be really tested.  It is similar to how the Daemons went.  No one had a good idea how to play against them, but once they do, it becomes more fair/even.  Granted, Marines have been around longer, and are not a new army, but the point stands that people just need to continue to find the weaknesses.

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #30 on: November 2, 2008, 07:16:12 AM »
i played a tournament yesterday and faced two of the new marine players.

first guy had not played a single game of 5th edition and really hadn't read the rule book at all.  (ie he read the good changes but not the bad changes) so for the first two turns it was a major demo game, after that i just gave up and got rolled.

last game of the day was a secure and control i think it was (objectives) with spearhead deployment and a secondary objective of moving objectives (best way to describe).  I didn't find the list at all disgusting (he had big papa smurf) and it was a close fight right down to the last turn.


so really i dont find the new dex overpowered, just some builds can be disgusting!
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Offline verdonian_XII

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #31 on: November 5, 2008, 02:48:27 PM »
now i am at my limit, if there is one thing i really have troubles swallowing  (i mean no offence by this) it is the "free heavy weapons"
not the thing in it self, but that marine players call them "bad" and take them for granted, i pay i lot of points to gain those same guns, and the extra aquipment gets made up bu the inflexibilty in unit size? look in a guard codex io can only regulate my numbers in 10's and have to buy a minimum of 25 men per troop choice, it is fluffy, fun, cool, and not an annoyance for guard players since we whould never have enough men othervise, but that is unflexibility not that you have to take a 10 man squad (wich you can split into two separate squads).

so please marine players dont call the free stuff "bad" or not to be counted in the marine prize,

(and i am not whining nor screaming, just annoyed that you get the stuff i pay for free, and take that for granted)
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Offline SlaveOne

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #32 on: November 5, 2008, 04:54:30 PM »
Being an Eldar player i have heard this debate for years, heck since 2nd ed. Mostly from Marine Players. So it is with great rejoice is see this accuser becoming the accuse. However it would bad form to leave it at that without comment on the topic.

I dont think its over powered regardless of what powerful synergies that can be put together. Model counts should be lower and the elimination of min maxing units  keeps things in check.
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #33 on: November 5, 2008, 05:06:54 PM »
Yea, after playing with them more I only have beef with their HQs in all honesty. They are WAY too undercosted...

Things like sternguard are nice but are just standard marines in cc, so tarpit them/actually beat them there and there goes a big point sink...

Offline Dinendal

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #34 on: November 5, 2008, 05:08:51 PM »
The only thing I really have issues with is the fact they can be more mobile than an Eldar force... but it's just to please crybabies so I don't really care that much... Laz however, have to face this kind of opposition in tourneys. I feel sorry for him.
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #35 on: November 5, 2008, 05:16:19 PM »
Well I have to admit, I have been having more success with other races besides Eldar in 5th, which has NEVER been the case before (at least for me)...

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #36 on: November 6, 2008, 07:47:42 AM »
Being a devout Marine-hater, and all the uber-macho, meathead culture that surrounds space marines and their various spinoffs in other media (HALO, Gears of War and all that other crap) I must still admit I like the Codex. They have finally gotten stuff thats been talked about in their fluff for years, and I never really understood why it was omitted. 
The Codex in my opinion is more colorful that overpowered, and that adds a little dimension to them on the field.

The only thing I can't stand is the 3++ on termies. Maybe thats only with Stormshields, but I hate the 3++ on mech boys too. It makes sense from a fluff point of view, but 2+/3++ is just too much. Though I guess fortuned 4++ on my Seers is pretty brutal as well. 
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #37 on: November 6, 2008, 10:11:36 AM »
Yea except for they just take null zone and now our rr 4++ isn't so good. Their 3++ is BS.

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #38 on: November 6, 2008, 11:19:52 AM »
Posted by: Dinendal

 
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Laz however, have to face this kind of opposition in tourneys. I feel sorry for him.

lol, don't feel sorry for me....pray for my opponents. It's not soo much that the opposistion is overpowered that irritates me as to what it makes me do to my list in order to try and compete with them. I went from having a codex simply full of viable options to a much much smaller build choice to choose from while considering the interations of the 5th edition core changes.

Posted by: Straker

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Well I have to admit, I have been having more success with other races besides Eldar in 5th, which has NEVER been the case before (at least for me)...

Yeah, I'm undefeated with my Orks so far in 5th edition. Go figure huh?


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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #39 on: November 6, 2008, 12:15:58 PM »
It's certainly obnoxious and poorly written, but I can't say that it's broken yet.  The new Codex gets many things for free and many improvements in wargear and rules that the other Chapters mysteriously do not have access to.  This is mainly due to terrible planning on GW's part, as well as collective amnesia for forgetting the format of the most balanced Codex books in years.  On the other hand, a few of the superior equipment options come at a higher price than the Dark Angels/Blood Angels counterparts (comparisons to Space Wolves and Black Templars is another can of worms).  Assault Marines, superior to Raptors, cost even less yet have Special Options returned (I guess Dark Angels have a sparse armory).  Vanguard have a free Power Weapon, making them cost roughly 10 points more than a basic Veteran Assault Squad, despite having Combat Tactics,  Heroic Intervention, and the option to equip as many members as wanted with more weapons than are available to their counterpart.

Tac Squads are mostly the same.  They aren't 16 points now and they don't get heavy/special weapons for free- it all works out to normal costs in a squad of 10.  I was surprised to see that squads of <10 Marines are so punished, it's almost something to be jealous of BA/DA for.

Some options that should have been left in the dustbin are back, like Artificer Armor.  It's not only back but is cheaper than it was before, leaving Terminator Captains and BA/DA Captains in the dust.  At least Master Crafted, Articifer, Adamantium Cloak, twin Thunderhammer (Pistol + TH) builds are gone. 

The book was written in some kind of fever of kid's doodles and cocaine.  On the one hand, they get many improvements or more options for free, on the other they get options that must have come from a child's mind- for better or for worse (Iron Clad is silly but effective, the Hurricane Bolter option is just a middle-schooler's conversion waiting to happen).

The Codex encourages orgasmically beardy units, the disadvantage seems to be in putting them into Combat Squads.  It's certainly effective, but battle reports I've read so far indicates that it ends up costing the game because the Space Marine player lost too many Kill Points due to having so many Combat Squads.
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