Topic: How to kill GEQ

[Fenris]

As many of us have noticed Astra militarum is a hard nut to crack, especially when they can just spam bodies. Best way to deal with them is of course by not having to kill them all, but suppose you have to, which is the most efficient unit(s) to do it?

I'm going to try to run some numbers, but please double check them because I tend to make errors a bit to often. Also numbers isn't everything.

Some of the top contenders I think will be:
10x Gurdians w shuriken cannon (or scatter laser?)
8x Storm guardians w 2x flamers
5x Swooping hawks w hawks talon
5x Scytheguards
3x Dark reapers w tempest launcher
1x Support weapon w shadow weaver
5x Warp Spiders w dual deathspinners
5x Striking scorpions (or Howling banshees?)

Points cost of each unit will of course also be included, not just pure killyness but killiness/point cost.

Guardians w shuriken cannon [95p] :
8 catapults: 1,78 (rends) + 3,56 = 5,33
1 cannon: 0,33 (rends) + 0,89 = 1,22
1 plasma grenade = 1,30 (assuming 3,5 shots)
Total: 7,85 kills

(1 scatter: 1,48)
Scatter laser is better giving us a total of 8,11 Kills from shooting

in Melee:
10 guardians= 2,22
1 platform=0,056
Total: 2,28 Kills

Total kills/point: (8,11 + 2,28) /95 = 0,11 k/p



Storm Guardians w two flamers [74p] :
5 pistols: 0,56 (rends) + 1,11 = 1,67
2 flamers = 3,11  (assuming 3,5 shots)
1 plasma grenade = 1,30 (assuming 3,5 shots)
Total: 6,08 kills

in Melee:
6 chainswords= 2,67
2 fists= 0,44
Total: 3,11 Kills

Total kills/point: (6,08 + 3,11)/74 = 0,12 k/p

I will try to hammer the other units later..


Edit:
5x Swooping Hawks w Hawks talon [68p] :
4 lasblasters= 3,56
1 Hawks talon= 1,19
5 grenades= 0,83
Total: 5,57 kills

in Melee:
6 fists= 1,33
Total: 1,33 Kills

Total kills/point: (5,57 + 1,33)/68 = 0,10 k/p

5x Scytheguards [225p]:
Scythes = 8,33 (assuming 2 shots each)
Total: 8,33 Kills

in Melee:
fists= 1,85 Kills

Total kills/point: (8,33 + 1,85)/225 = 0,05 k/p

3x Dark Reapers w tempest launcher [86p]:
2 sunburst = 2,59 (assuming 3,5 shots each)
tempest = 3,63
Total: 6,22 Kills

in Melee:
4 fists= 0,89 Kills

Total kills/point: (6,22 + 0,89)/86 = 0,08 k/p

Shadow weaver [55p]:
weaver = 0,39 (rends) + 1,04 = 1,43
Total: 1,43 Kills

in Melee:
2 fists= 0,44 Kills

Total kills/point: (1,43 + 0,44)/55 = 0,03 k/p

5x Warp Spider w dual deathspinner [98p]
6 spinners =  1,33(rends) + 3,56 = 4,89
Total: 4,89 Kills

in Melee:
6 fists= 1,33 Kills

Total kills/point: (4,89 + 1,33)/98 = 0,06 k/p


Edit2:
5x Striking Scorpions [70p]
4 pistols: 0,44 (rends) + 0,89 = 1,33
1 plasma grenade = 1,30 (assuming 3,5 shots)
Total: 2,63 Kills

in Melee:
Mandiblasters = 0,83
8 S.chainswords = 2,37
3,5 Exarch: 1,04
Total: 4,24 Kills

Total kills/point: (2,63 + 4,24)/70 = 0,10 k/p
(with scorpions claw: +0,33 shooting +0,90 Melee -> (2,96 + 5,14)/82 = 0,10)
Claw is actually slightly better, even if the rounded numbers don't show it.

5x Howling Banshees w mirror swords[65p]
4 pistols: 0,44 (rends) + 0,89 = 1,33
Total: 1,33 Kills

in Melee:
8 powerswords = 2,67
mirrors = 1,33
Total: 4 Kills

Total kills/point: (1,33 + 4)/65 = 0,08 k/p

Edit3:
Forgot the mandiblasters, now scorpions are on par with the hawks, they might even beat them if the target is in cover...

5x Striking Scorpions w claw against GEQ's in cover[82p]
5 pistols: 0,69 (rends) + 1,04 = 1,73
1 plasma grenade = 1,30 (assuming 3,5 shots)
Total: 3,03 Kills

in Melee:
Mandiblasters = 0,83
8 S.chainswords = 2,96
3,5 Exarch: 2,43
Total: 6,22 Kills

Total kills/point: (3,03 + 6,22)/82 = 0,11 k/p

[Irisado]

I've removed the numbers from the title, since the purpose of the acronym is to avoid using the numbers.

I'm not sure what the aim is here.  It has long been the case that multiple shot weapons with a mid to high strength are the best way of eliminating GEQs with a low toughness value.  This has not changed in eighth.  Even in view of many Eldar multi-shot weapons, such as the Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser, losing a little of their edge, they still remain highly viable against this sort of target.

[Lord of Winter and War]

The best in the codex are swooping hawks.

20 shots for 65pts is awesome. They are also fast, have long range, and can do mortal wounds. Best value for the price. I can see running 50-100 Swooping Hawks to be a very competitive choice at mowing through things, and then dropping in later in the game to mortal wound out wounded units and models.

[Fenris]

@Irisado sorry about posting GEQ stats. The point is to compare which unit is the best to counter one of the currently most difficult opponents to give a hint of what unit to take over another if an army struggles with this opponent.
It's not always useful to go for the mathematically best unit because some units provide more versatility, either in firing modes or simply in delivery system, range or craftworld allegiance or even stratagem combos.

However I think knowing how much damage a unit puts out is vital for targetting priorities in games now that every unit can split it's fire. Both due to overkill and to pick the best targets for your units.

@killersquid: The problem with Hawks is getting both a good target for the grenades and the lasblasters simultaneously. GEQ is obviously not a good target for their grenades, they would be more useful on MEQ or TEQ, but preferably something with invulnerable saves.

[Blazinghand]

I went up against a Space Marines player who is running 40 conscripts yesterday. Just the supporting fire from my four wave serpents with shuriken cannons was able to deal with them pretty handily. A flexible unit with anti-infantry capabilities like a warp spiders or dire Avengers seem like they would be a good choice. This would allow your list to be good against swarms but also not overly focused on them so you could still fight against other lists

[Aurics Pride]

I think for the most part our choices for anti-horde in 8th haven't changed since the last edition.
Guardians and Dire Avengers have been good for this job for a long time, Shuriken catapults are great for a "basic weapon" as they can provide a legitimate threat against most targets.
I am really loving Swooping Hawks in this edition though, gonna be ordering some Corsair bits over the next couple of weeks to do some Hawks in a similar vein to Cav's.

[magenb]

I think you need to seperate the Shooting and Melee out of the kill per points. If your Dark reapers are in Melee range, then your in trouble lol.


SH are the best anti-horde shooting unit we have, number of shots outside of rapid fire range. The grenade pack is just a bonmus if you can pull it off, not a core function.

[Fenris]

@magenb: it might make sense for hawks, reapers and support weapons, but not for Scorpions or Storm guardians.

Hawks are 5,57/65 = 0,086 k/p (without grenades: 4,74/65 = 0,73 k/p)
Reapers are 6,22/86 = 0,072 k/p

So without the grenade packs Reapers are almost as good as Hawks.

@Blazinghand: The units you mention are good at this too, but they invest a lot of their points in resilience rather than damage output.
We could calculate resilience against lasguns or bolters and then combine it with the damage output to really get into which unit is better against which both defensively and aggressively. This would work fine or Spiders & Avengers, but it's not really applicable for Wave Serpents, because we would then have to add anti-tank weapons to the GEQ or MEQ to make it somewhat fair, and then there is split fire from multipurpose units, which are almost impossible to compare.

@Aurics Pride: I actually feel that (avenger) shuriken catapults has got a great improvement in 8th ed, since they are way better against vehicles. The shuriken cannons did take a hit though due to the new wound chart.
Lasblasters are still not awesome, unless the target is doomed, but they are more synchronised with their grenade packs as they both works against invulnerable saves.

[Blazinghand]

Swooping Hawks do seem like a good choice in terms of just getting in a good rate of fire.

Defender Guardians will have more damage output than Dire Avengers usually I think. For example, 5 Dire Avengers, 1 of which is an Exarch with 2 Catapults:
10 Catapult shots -> 6.6 hits -> 4.4 wounds (1.1 of which are rends) -> 2.2 wounds post-save from normal hits, 1.1 wounds from rends. for about 3.3 GEQs killed
3.5 Grenade shots -> 2.4 hits -> 1.6 wounds -> 1.3 GEQs killed
total GEQs killed is 4.5, which is pretty respectable.

12 Defenders with a Shuriken Cannon would shoot:
20 Catapult shots -> 13.2 hits -> 8.8 wounds (2.2 of which are rends) -> 4.4 wounds post-save from normal hits, 2.2 wounds from rends. for about 6.6 GEQs killed
3 Cannon shots -> 2 hits -> 1.6 wounds (0.3 of which are rends-> 1.1 wounds post-save from normal hits, 0.3 wounds from rends, for about 1.4 GEQs killed
3.5 Grenade shots -> 2.4 hits -> 1.6 wounds -> 1.3 GEQs killed
total GEQs killed is 9.3

Seems like a squad of defenders kills 9.3 instead of 4.5, or twice as many, while costing only 73% more. So Defenders are in fact better at shooting GEQs than Avengers are. That being said, dealing 200% damage for 173% cost isn't an enormous gain in efficiency; only like 14%. Dire Avengers have a bunch of other advantages.

Except for maybe taking down multiwound infantry or vehicles, Dire Avengers are pretty good against everything. Their guns have longer range, making them more likely to shoot; they get better saves and can be in smaller squads, making them more likely to fit into transports or survive to get into their (easier to get into) shooting range. They have better leadership as well. A Dire Avenger squad inside a Wave Serpent has a really big threat range, because it can disembark, move, advance, and shoot for a total range on average of just over 30 inches (though it will need to be much closer to use grenades).

Defender Guardians have their own advantages though. They can take some pretty hefty heavy weapons on their platforms, and the platforms  themselves are pretty durable. They're potentially threatening to vehicles and such if you give them a Bright Lance. Even with their shorter range guns they're pretty good at moving and shooting, and I've had opponents comment on how deceptively fast Defender Guardians are. Someone can park 20 inches away, thinking they're safe, and the Guardians rush forward, moving, advancing, and shooting to catch them in a bunch of shots. It's also a cheap way to get a lot of bodies on the board.

If you play Ulthwé, Discipline of the Black Guardians makes them very threatening in terms of damage output. Taking a squad of 20 Guardians and using this Stratagem is a great idea for clearing out infantry in my opinion. A single larger squad of Guardians can also better benefit from defensive things like the Celestial Shield Stratagem, or the Protect spell, especially when combined.

[Lord of Winter and War]

@killersquid: The problem with Hawks is getting both a good target for the grenades and the lasblasters simultaneously. .

You won't. Youd use them separately. Shooting lasblasters turns 1-3, and then start alternating units to jump into the sky and back down again. By turn 5, the chance for mortal wounds should be enough to finish off already softened units.

For the price, nothing beats swooping hawks. S3 is also not terrible, especially when you get 20 shots for 60ish points at a decent range. It's a dice game, if you're rolling more dice you'll do well

[Fenris]

Swooping Hawks do seem like a good choice in terms of just getting in a good rate of fire.

Defender Guardians will have more damage output than Dire Avengers usually I think. For example, 5 Dire Avengers, 1 of which is an Exarch with 2 Catapults:
10 Catapult shots -> 6.6 hits -> 4.4 wounds (1.1 of which are rends) -> 2.2 wounds post-save from normal hits, 1.1 wounds from rends. for about 3.3 GEQs killed
3.5 Grenade shots -> 2.4 hits -> 1.6 wounds -> 1.3 GEQs killed
total GEQs killed is 4.5, which is pretty respectable.

Just double checking the Avengers:
10 A.catapults: 1,11 rends + 2,22 = 3,33
Grenade= 1,30
Total= 4,63 Kills

(4.5 seems accurate)

Melee = 1,33

5,96/64 = 0,09 k/p

I would probably account for units with longer range than 12" in their resilience by not allowing lasguns or bolters to shoot rapid fire. So if we just do Avengers and Guardians
against GEQ lasguns we will get:

10 GEQ shooting Avengers:
Lasguns = 1,25
Melee = 1,25

Total = 2,5/50 = 0,05 k/p

10 GEQ shooting Guardians:
Lasguns = 3,33
Melee = 1,67

Total = 4/50 = 0,08 k/p

Now reducing the killyness from both with the killyness of GEQ we get:
Avengers 0,09 - 0,05 = 0,04 k/p
Guardians 0,11 - 0,08 = 0,03 k/p

Which would make Guardians effective against GEQ but Avengers are even more effective.
Not sure if GEQ come with frag grenades as standard though, which could tip the favor but then if Avengers want to stay at a distance they can't reach with the grenade.
I also did not account for the platform tanking the shots for the guardians, but I'm getting tired now, maybe tomorrow.

[SeekingOne]

Hi Fenris, some neat analysis there.

Once again can't help mentioning though that I feel very doubtful about incorporating certain things that are imho entirely situational, namely:
- shooting prior to combat by a melee unit like banshees or scorps;
- charging in after shooting by firepower units like DAs/Defenders/Spiders/Hawks, let alone Reapers or Support weapons;
- Hawks' grenade pack;
- grenades in general.

Basically, my thinking is this: if I know for a fact that I don't want to charge my Avengers or Guardians into melee after shooting (and I don't want to do it in like 95% of cases), then there's no reason for me to be within 6", and then I'm not throwing any grenades.

Similarly with Hawks, what's great about them (imho) is mainly the volume of shots they can put out at up to 24" range, and if I'm fielding them I most likely want to make the most out of that specific advantage. But if I do so, I'm not using their grenade pack nor am I charging them into melee.

Similarly with Scorps, if I infiltrate them at 9.1" from the nearest enemy, I will likely want to try to assault them - and in this case I'm not shooting anything into their target unit to avoid making already long charge distance even longer. Also, since they are within 9.1" from the nearest enemy, it's not guaranteed that they have another viable target within 12".

That's what I call situational...

[DuckWake]

I thinks if you are going to compare how Dire Avengers compare to Guardians in an attrition fight against Guard you need to take into account the points per wound of the target, not just the wounds inflicted.

For instance if the DAs are shooting from just inside their max range with 6 catapults they would kill 4 Guard on the dot, which is Kills / UnitCost * TargetCost = 4/64*4 = 0.25 points destroyed per point invested.

Conversely if the Guard return fire with 9 lasgun shots they would kill 1.125 DAs, which is
Kills / UnitCost * TargetCost = 1.125/40 * (64/5) = 0.4 points destroyed per point invested.

This is a pretty good return on investment for the Guard given that this is the best case scenario for Dire Avengers. If the Guard can close to within rapid fire range of the DAs they will come close to earning their points back in a single round of shooting.

For Guardians vs Guard at 12":
20 Shuriken catapult attacks nets 6.6666 kills, which is 6.66/80*4 = 0.333 points destroyed per invested.
19 Lasgun/pistol attacks net 3.17 kills, which is 3.17/40*8 = 0.633 points destroyed per invested.

Assuming that the guard can concentrate the same amount of points of infantry in the same area as the Eldar can, then Eldar infantry need to dominate the positioning and morale game in order to even come close to breaking even.

If you look at the points return on investment, then you will find that Guardians are slightly more points efficient when shooting Leman Russes than they are at shooting Guard squads.

[SeekingOne]

Assuming that the guard can concentrate the same amount of points of infantry in the same area as the Eldar can, then Eldar infantry need to dominate the positioning and morale game in order to even come close to breaking even.

If you look at the points return on investment, then you will find that Guardians are slightly more points efficient when shooting Leman Russes than they are at shooting Guard squads.

This is top-notch. I was thinking along the similar lines for a while, but couldn't quite put it in words/numbers.

When you start looking at things from this perspective, the whole 8th edition damage system starts feeling messed up.

[The Mattler]

Assuming that the guard can concentrate the same amount of points of infantry in the same area as the Eldar can, then Eldar infantry need to dominate the positioning and morale game in order to even come close to breaking even.

If you look at the points return on investment, then you will find that Guardians are slightly more points efficient when shooting Leman Russes than they are at shooting Guard squads.

This is top-notch. I was thinking along the similar lines for a while, but couldn't quite put it in words/numbers.

When you start looking at things from this perspective, the whole 8th edition damage system starts feeling messed up.

I keep saying that the game is just about how position and probability determine how much value you can squeeze out of your points allotment, while minimizing your opponent's ability to do the same.  That's why your target priority decisions should focus on widening the gap between the damage outputs of your army and your opponent's army with respect to each other, especially in the first couple of turns because any disparity snowballs quickly.

Regarding the Guardians' performance against Leman Russes, that's the shuriken weaponry screwing with the damage balance, and it's not a "slight" difference.

Each Guardian shooting at a Leman Russ averages ~0.19 wounds, so that's (0.185185 wounds/8 pts)(220* pts/12 wounds) = 0.42 points killed per point invested, which is roughly 27% more damage output than against Guardsmen!

*estimate based on 11 PL cost with 20 pts/PL

You can see how stronger Shuriken Catapult is when you turn around and compare the damage output of Lasguns against a Wraithlord or Wave Serpents.  Put all shuriken guns on both, so they're almost exactly the same cost.  Since Guardsman have the same trouble taking a wound off each of those tough targets, let's use the Wraithlord to be nice to them (since it has fewer wounds).

19 Lasgun shots within 12" average. 0.527777 wounds on a shuriken Wraithlord, which yields (0.527777/40)(133/10) = 0.175 points killed per point invested.

An astute observer will note that against Wraithguard w/Wraithcannons that number creeps to 0.176, so I guess what I'm really saying is that if you selectively target the Astra Militarum heavy guns, wade in with a bunch of T6+ models, and keep everything else out of 12" (unless you plan to wipe the targets), you'll weather the flashlight frenzy remarkably well. If I've messed up any of the calculations, let me know, but for the moment I'm going to enjoy the image of wraith contructs crumpling Guardsmen on their front carapaces like empty beer cans.

[DuckWake]

With regard to Guardians vs Leman Russ.

Assuming the prototypical Russ with Battlecannon, Lascannon, and 2 Heavy Bolters, it weighs in at 180 points.

10 Guardians do 13.33 hits, of which 2.22 wound, and 1.85 get through the armour thanks to the shuriken rule.
The points efficiency here is (1.85/12) * 180/80 = 0.347 points destroyed per invested.

The Russ in return will kill 2.92(2xBattleCannon) + 0.42(Lascannon) + 1.66(2xHeavyBolter) = 5 Guardians, which is 5*8/180 = 0.22 points destroyed per invested.

It is fair enough that a tank can struggle to deal with infantry, especially when they have the range to mitigate return fire, but it is slightly comical that infantry without anti-tank weaponry have a pretty solid chance of not just winning the battle through board control, but also through wiping out the tanks if they can close the gap.

I don't see much in the Eldar list that can effectively deal with Guardsmen quickly, and as you suggest Mattler, it may be better to focus on quickly destroying their armor instead, then play avoidance against the main body of Guardsmen while trying to grab victory points.

An astute observer will note that against Wraithguard w/Wraithcannons that number creeps to 0.176, so I guess what I'm really saying is that if you selectively target the Astra Militarum heavy guns, wade in with a bunch of T6+ models, and keep everything else out of 12" (unless you plan to wipe the targets), you'll weather the flashlight frenzy remarkably well. If I've messed up any of the calculations, let me know, but for the moment I'm going to enjoy the image of wraith contructs crumpling Guardsmen on their front carapaces like empty beer cans.

Indeed, Dscythe wraith guard aren't quite going to win an idealized/mathematical stand and shoot fight against Guardsmen, but they will survive long enough to pull off charges, force morale checks, and concentrate enough points in a small enough area that the Guardsmen will struggle to bring guns to bear.

A wraith run abattoir might just be the ticket for stomping those guardsmen.

[Fenris]

@DuckWake: No I don't need to take into account the points per wound of the target, because I take into account the points spent on the unit doing the damage.
I will have to double check the GEQ codex though, if they have actually gone down 20% in point cost.
But if that's true we will have:
Avengers 0,09 - 0,06 = 0,03 k/p
Guardians 0,11 - 0,10 = 0,01 k/p
instead.

Maybe this would be easier:
Avengers 5,96/68 - 2,5/40 = 0,03 k/p
Guardians 8,11/95 - 4/40 = 0,01 k/p

While a war of attrition would give:
Avengers 5,96*40/68 - 2,5*68/40 = 3,51 - 4,25 = -0,74
Guardians 8,11*40/95 - 4*95/40 = 3,41 - 9,5 = -6,09
(not accounting for exarch or platform tanking the wounds in which case we'll get:
Avengers 5,96*40/68 - 1,5*68/40 = 3,51 - 2,55 = 0,96
Guardians 8,11*40/95 - 2*95/40 = 3,41 - 4,25 = -0,84
)
Aeldari should NEVER go into a war of attrition.

I do agree about the shuriken catapults (including the avenger version) being awesome against vehicles though, especially with doom.

[SeekingOne]

Assuming the prototypical Russ with Battlecannon, Lascannon, and 2 Heavy Bolters, it weighs in at 180 points.

10 Guardians do 13.33 hits, of which 2.22 wound, and 1.85 get through the armour thanks to the shuriken rule.
The points efficiency here is (1.85/12) * 180/80 = 0.347 points destroyed per invested.

The Russ in return will kill 2.92(2xBattleCannon) + 0.42(Lascannon) + 1.66(2xHeavyBolter) = 5 Guardians, which is 5*8/180 = 0.22 points destroyed per invested.

There's still a matter of weapon specialisation, right? Here I'd rather consider the Punisher variant with 3 HB that weighs in at 166 pts and kills ~7 guardians per volley. Here it comes to 0.34 points destroyed per invested.

It is fair enough that a tank can struggle to deal with infantry, especially when they have the range to mitigate return fire, but it is slightly comical that infantry without anti-tank weaponry have a pretty solid chance of not just winning the battle through board control, but also through wiping out the tanks if they can close the gap.

I prefer to see this as a justification of our Troops units being unable to take 1-2 anti-armour special weapons as squad upgrades, like pretty much all other "civilised" races do. Funnily enough, a unit of 5 DAs on average deals similar amount of damage to a generic tank as a unit of Kabalite warriors with one Blaster (roughly 1.3 damage). At the same time a squad of 5 SM with a melta deal the average of 2.15 damage, which is 0.39 points killed per invested vs 180 pts LRBT or 0.36 vs a 166 pts one.

As you can see, output seems to be roughly consistent across infantry in different armies, provided you take into account the auto-include upgrades.

I don't see much in the Eldar list that can effectively deal with Guardsmen quickly, and as you suggest Mattler, it may be better to focus on quickly destroying their armor instead, then play avoidance against the main body of Guardsmen while trying to grab victory points.

I'd say, while we might not have anything that deals with guardsmen quickly, we still have lots of things that can deal with them just about quickly enough.

[The Mattler]

As you can see, output seems to be roughly consistent across infantry in different armies, provided you take into account the auto-include upgrades.

Yeah, I think GW is finally starting to listen to all of the players who nag them to price units according to actual performance.  They're still a bit fuzzy on how to take mobility options into account, but hey, at least they're improving.   Now, if only they could tighten the quality control at Forge World...

[SeekingOne]

Now, if only they could tighten the quality control at Forge World...

Oh yes  that has to be done at some point.