Topic: Eldar tweaks....contacting GW....

[The Reborn]

Hi Guys,

just wondering what you all might think about contacting GW as a community concerning imbalance in the new rules?

Before I go any further, I'm talking about Eldar, and I'm talking about genuine issues rather than some whine-fest about this isn't fair or that isn't fair...you know?

Starcannons it would seem are over-pointed....nerfed recently in the FAQ, but did not have the points lowered.

I don't have any stats for the Imperial knights, but how do they compare against Wraithknights for the points?

What I'm getting at is that GW seem to be listening now, they even took gamers who ran tournaments or larger sites and asked them for input regarding the rules we are now using.  They've promised that things can change, but this will require OUR input.  Maybe between us all, we can make a list of legitimate issues with balance in mind, then send it in to them?

What do you think, cos it seems to me we aren't just banging our heads against a wall anymore.

[Saim-Dann]

G'day again TR!
Am very interested in what your suggesting, however;

1: How would we go about this?
2: Are we sure it's just Eldar. Has the overpriced/underpowered wand been waved across the entire 40K range?
3: I'm far too lazy to check for number 2.

If it's just Eldar or only a couple of others, then count me in!!   

[The Reborn]

Hi SD, yeah, I'm just talking about Eldar...sorry if that sounds a bit partisan.

I'm absolutely certain there is imbalance in ALL armies, whether this is plus or minus what most of us would deem "fair".

I don't know enough about how this forum works to guess at the mechanics of how we'd do this, just that I think it's worth the effort AND we stand a greater chance of being listened to if we do it officially, as a group.

This isn't complaining remember, this is about getting it right. And GW are asking for this feedback too....

[Saim-Dann]

... I'm in! 
I'm so excited I use my very first emoji. Hopefully, someone with the know-how will click in, TR, and we'll get the digital partition away.

[Adrastos]

There's a couple of things I identified right away but I have yet to compare to other armies. I have been thinking of doing this myself so making it a community effort makes sense.


StarCannons: I literally have no reason to buy one ever. Its a heavy weapon, it only has 2 shots, and if i move its hitting on 4+. It has crappy damage output. I considered it when they had a flat 3 damage but now I'll just use ShuriCannons.

Wraith Blades with Axes: So expensive, so pointless. Swords are statistically much better for way less.

Dire Avengers: These things cost more than space marines. I have no idea why. They aren't better than space marines. Maybe analogous.

Vauls Wrath Support Batteries: 3x the cost of last edition. Its 98 points for one of these with a shadow weaver. That's NUTS. I can almost buy a wave serpent for that.

Corsairs: Lasblasters are way overpriced. They should be 0 points like Shuripults.
 - The jetpack corsairs should be able to deep strike.

Lynx, Pulsar: Seems under powered. Honestly bright lances wave serpents make more sense in their ubiquity. The strength is nice but not THAT nice. Strength in this edition matters a lot less with the high-low of it. Not sure how to fix it but it seems weak. Maybe more shots? Heavy 3 salvo?

That's all I can think of.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Stuff like this has been tried before, and has even gotten some answers back. I used to have GW contact info and can probably get it again.

Either way, I think there needs to be a lot more play testing than could have been done yet. There are some glaring things of course... looking at you Support Batteries...

TBH - I am not convinced that CWE are in such a bad position. Things may be a bit tight or feel inefficient at the moment - but that I think is true for most armies. At least we are not Tau..

[The Reborn]

Adrestos: this is excellent thank you, just what is needed. I'm with you completely on these points.

Faitherun: I think we're in a much better position with GW than we were before. To solidly convince their custom base that they've changed, they need to listen and act.
If you can help in any way with contacts, that would be great, thank you.


However, I don't want to tread on anyone's toes regarding this website. I do think it's important that we do this right and do it AS 40kOnline.

Also, I'm not saying that we are in a bad position....as you rightly say, time will tell....but, it's certainly not too early to see some things that are not working out. And it wasn't too early for GW to give us all a 30-point horror of a gun...just my opinion.

[Blazinghand]

The most obvious culprit is the Support Battery for "this was priced incorrectly" in my opinion. Consider: 2x Vaul's Wrath with Shadow Weavers is strictly worse than a Night Spinner, despite costing somewhat more. same number of shots, less strength, less damage, less mobility, less durability.

Dire Avengers are pretty sad in terms of cost as well. I am fairly sure their cost will be brought down.

[The Reborn]

Blazinghand, hi mate.

Yes, agree on the Support batteries, and on the DA. I too hope that their points are lowered, but even better if we can help achieve this eh?

[SeekingOne]

I've no idea how to contact GW, but if that is possible, we'd better do it soon: they promised 10 new codices this year and I'm pretty sure they can't ALL be just Marines. This means that Craftworlds, still being a major and one of the few most iconic factions in 40k, will likely also get a codex this year. So there's precious little time left, if any...

As for the issues, compared to other armies, CWE are in pretty poor state - but this is a subtle thing that requires an experienced Eldar player to realise. The problem we're facing is similar to what we had by the end of 5th edition: it's not that our units have bad stats or rules, but most of them (with few exceptions) are priced 15-20% higher than they deserve. It's easier to list units that DO NOT need cost reduction - those will be:
Guardians
Hemlock
Wraithswords
Wave Serpent
Fire Dragons
Howling Banshees
Named characters

Pretty much everything else needs to be cheaper, with infantry going back down to roughly their 7th edition costs, and vehicles dropping by 15-20 point or so. But, imho, it's obvious that such issue would be very hard to confer to GW.

We can still list the most glaringly obvious issues though. I think, Adrastos has pretty much nailed the right list of those, so I'll basically repeat him:

1. Units
- Dire Avengers - these are badly overpriced for no apparent reason. There's nothing about them to justify them being whopping 1.5 times more expensive than tactical marines or necron warriors. They always worked quite well being 1 pt cheaper than tactical marines, and that's what they should cost now.
- Wraithblades with axes - their incredibly high point cost looks completely unjustified.
- Vaul's Wrath Support batteries - also incredibly expensive with no durability or damage output to justify that.

2. Weapons
- Starcannon & AEML - there's absolutely no reason for these weapons to be more expensive than a Bright lance.
- Scatter laser - this weapon needs a re-design, because currently it is pointless compared to shuriken cannon. And at least there's absolutely no reason for this weapon to be more expensive than a Shuriken cannon.

[magenb]

It is well known that Eldar, specially Craftworld Eldar are the new runts of 40k, it would be difficult to say this was not intentional, especially considering those units that got spammed the most took the biggest hits. That said, CWE in a balanced list, can put up a solid fight, as long as you are not facing an extreme list (mass horde, Mass LoW, etc). So big thumbs up for balancing work they did.


Changing CWE will effect the power level of Ynnari if you tinker with their toys and point costs. So there is a fine line in getting this all balanced out. One might even think that GW want you to play Ynnari instead of CWE...





@SeekingOne
If Banshee's got their no overwatch rule back, then I would agree they are at the right point cost, without it, they need transport or will be gunned down fairly easily.

Scatlasers were spammed to incredible heights last edition so yeah, now they have been nerfed out of existence. Changing them to a Heavy6, S5, AP-1, would give you pause enough to consider taking them. It would also give Eldar a half decent anti-horde weapon.

[Fenris]

Oooh, there are a lot of things that need tweaking, or rather the algorithms need to be changed over all armies regarding wargear. But let's stick to just Eldar.

Why would an Autarch pay the same points as a Storm Guardian or banshee for a powersword?
What do they need to consider when pricing a powerssword.
WS, S & A and possibly a couple of special rules.

The banshees have more attacks than storm guardians, they also have a special rule that amplifies the powerswords.
The Autarch is even further down this Path, plenty more attacks, better WS and can choose to take a banshee mask as well.

Storm guardian powersword should be 2-3 points
Banshee powersword 4-5 points
Autarch powersword 10-12 points

Then there are some obvious errors on some units like the Dire Avengers.
Twin shuriken catapults cost XX points, one shuriken catapult should cost half of that 5 points.
The Avengers shuriken catapult should be somewhere in between these, so it's current cost is not wrong it's just that avengers should be able to deduct the actual cost of the shuriken catapult, that defender guardians can get for free, or is included in their points. Hence Dire Avengers should cost 12 ppm.
The Exarch with 2 Avenger catapults should however only get that 5 point reduction on his first Avenger shuriken catapult. So a unit could look like this:

5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2xASC 67p

Possibly 1 ppm extra due to their special overwatch rule amplifies their guns.

The artillery is also very out of whack, just as the fire Prism and the night spinner.

The artillery should come with the shadow weaver included, and it would be fine. That would be 16 point for the crew and 30 points for the platform (without a gun).

Prism cannon looks like it has been payed for twice, just cut about 30 points from it's points cost, same thing with the night spinner, but maybe 20 points.

[Adrastos]

It is well known that Eldar, specially Craftworld Eldar are the new runts of 40k

Is this a common opinion? I've only played one game of 8th, and it was a 1v1v1, but I didn't feel the least bit outclassed by either the Necrons nor the Death Wing Terminator army I faced. I'm curious to see what more of my games feel like considering I play CWE and not Ynnari.


I agree about Scatters though. They need to be WAY better. Heavy 6, S5, AP 0 is the minimum acceptable change.

Storm guardian powersword should be 2-3 points
Banshee powersword 4-5 points
Autarch powersword 10-12 points

This is the kind of thing that was intentionally removed from 8th and I don't want it back.
And Guardian cats don't cost anything because they're the only model that has them. That's typical for specific unit-only weapons.

DAs should really be 12-13 ppm. Avenger Cats should be 2-3 points each. Problem solved.


Twin Cats are also tank equipment, hence their cost. Bike model points can be considered reduced appropriately to compensate.

[TheEldarGuy]

Some of the older members (old as in time on the forum, not just age), will remember when a Star Cannon was cheaper and more than effective than it is now and was attached to an average BS Guardian platform.

I could easily go on, with 'old' stats and values, but the nature of it is that my tourney legal 750 point army from 3rd ed (and most of 4th) is now about 1000points, my 1000pts army from 7th is about 1200pts in the new way.

If you want to play Eldar, there are some hangups. I see it in the following way, for 6th and 7th ed we had a points revolution, lower than ever costs on models and while the Star Cannon is a popular weapon to complain about, we have a great many choices, and with Shuriken weaponry rules, we can't complain too much.

Dire Avengers are xpoints per model, better over-watch, faster on the ground, assault weapons that lay some smack when firing en masse, have access to the best transport in the game (which we can assault out of again). In addition, the Exarch weaponry allows for an invulnerable save.

If one looks at a base price and says this is x and this is y, Marines will win out all the time, however our bulk standard seriously kicks but. In a 1500point game, we are weaker than most, at 2000, we will be on par, and 2250 and over, we are the Lords of War.  A Space Marine squad starts at about 65points for minimum size way up to just over 200 for a full 10 with heavy Weapon and Special Weapon.

The Support weapon is huge from having to pay 105 for three shadow weavers, to almost 100pts each. That's pretty steep, but as the rules say, once deployed, they are each separate units. So each Shadow Weaver is its own squad for all intent and purpose, but up to three on one Heavy Support slot. Consider the rules, and firing, three at the same squad or at three different targets, the Shadow Weavers are now the go to weapon rather than the 'lets avoid at all cost' weapon (I always used them).

I've been here, and GW will listen, but in theory, there is an Eldar Codex aeround the corner and the response will be "Wait for that, you will be suitably impressed".

I've been here before when it was x points for a Shining Spear model (not the Exarch, just a Shining Spear), the plea fell on deaf ears. Then a revision or two later, everything I was told would never happen, occurred.

With current comments about Plastic vs Metal models (think Sisters), and with Orks costing way too much (as in currency per point) , there are other balances that are really more important.

You just have to wait, play the game you enjoy, and keep the faith.

Please avoid posting stats, even old ones, as it's against forum rule 1 - Iris.

[Blazinghand]

Some of the older members (old as in time on the forum, not just age), will remember when a Star Cannon was cheaper and more than effective than it is now and was attached to an average BS Guardian platform.

I could easily go on, with 'old' stats and values, but the nature of it is that my tourney legal 750 point army from 3rd ed (and most of 4th) is now about 1000points, my 1000pts army from 7th is about 1200pts in the new way.

If you want to play Eldar, there are some hangups. I see it in the following way, for 6th and 7th ed we had a points revolution, lower than ever costs on models and while the Star Cannon is a popular weapon to complain about, we have a great many choices, and with Shuriken weaponry rules, we can't complain too much.

Dire Avengers are xpoints per model, better over-watch, faster on the ground, assault weapons that lay some smack when firing en masse, have access to the best transport in the game (which we can assault out of again). In addition, the Exarch weaponry allows for an invulnerable save.

If one looks at a base price and says this is x and this is y, Marines will win out all the time, however our bulk standard seriously kicks but. In a 1500point game, we are weaker than most, at 2000, we will be on par, and 2250 and over, we are the Lords of War.  A Space Marine squad starts at about 65points for minimum size way up to just over 200 for a full 10 with heavy Weapon and Special Weapon.

The Support weapon is huge from having to pay 105 for three shadow weavers, to almost 100pts each. That's pretty steep, but as the rules say, once deployed, they are each separate units. So each Shadow Weaver is its own squad for all intent and purpose, but up to three on one Heavy Support slot. Consider the rules, and firing, three at the same squad or at three different targets, the Shadow Weavers are now the go to weapon rather than the 'lets avoid at all cost' weapon (I always used them).

I've been here, and GW will listen, but in theory, there is an Eldar Codex aeround the corner and the response will be "Wait for that, you will be suitably impressed".

I've been here before when it was x points for a Shining Spear model (not the Exarch, just a Shining Spear), the plea fell on deaf ears. Then a revision or two later, everything I was told would never happen, occurred.

With current comments about Plastic vs Metal models (think Sisters), and with Orks costing way too much (as in currency per point) , there are other balances that are really more important.

You just have to wait, play the game you enjoy, and keep the faith.

Please avoid posting stats, even old ones, as it's against forum rule 1 - Iris.

In terms of "things may be better later" I think you are right. There are still ways to make competitive Eldar armies, and when the Codex comes out things will be different. We will be fine.

That being said, I think saying that the Shadow Weaver Support Battery is somehow good cannot be correct and does not stand up to even casual scrutiny. The fact that it benefits from Support Battery rule is in my opinion not somehow worth it. Instead of buying two Shadow Weavers I'd much rather spend the points on a Night Spinner every time, which as the same number of shots as 2 Shadow Weavers, higher strength, more damage, better maneuverability, better secondary weapon, is more durable, and on top of ALL of that is cheaper too.

[TheEldarGuy]

And GW want you to buy a Night Spinner. for the cost of a Night Spinner model, it's about two Support Weapons.

The idea that there are 'better' units available, is always the case (should we open up Banshees vs Scorpions, or Dire Avengers vs Guardians, or even viability of Rangers), and as Eldar, we design our army to suit our playing style and fluff (which is great that we have these debates).

I think there is a strong argument for Power Levels vs Points, and in a PL based game, many of these niggling 'do I take 12 Guardians or 15 Guardians' questions become pointless. PL games seem to take some of the mathhammer and a great deal of min/maxing out the force composition decisions.

On the Shadow Weaver, two (or three) shots on one squad vs one shot against multiple squads is a nice way to provide flexibility that a single Night Spinner might not provide. However, it depends on the opposing army. In a tourney, where the opponents might be blobs of Greenskins or many squads of Astra Militarum, versatility may be more important than manoeuvrability. This is why I enjoy playing Eldar.

[Lord of Winter and War]

I honestly don't think things are as bad as you're making them out to be. This is a good time to try out things in games, and see how they work in practice. Math-hammering stuff out is not the same as how things will work on the table.

I've seen a lot of wacky and cool combinations working on the table at my LGS, as we're a competitive group (one of the top ranked Canadian teams in the ITC). I see potential in a lot of stuff in the elder book, but like all the factions now, you really need to select units to work together.

Everything is pretty much viable, but not in every army. Also, Eldar have some great buffs from characters and psykers. Sort of reminds me of Khorne Bloodbound in Age of Sigmar in the way. A lot of the units on paper don't seem super great, but the character buffs and inner synergy's' make them amazing.

[magenb]

It is well known that Eldar, specially Craftworld Eldar are the new runts of 40k

Is this a common opinion? I've only played one game of 8th, and it was a 1v1v1, but I didn't feel the least bit outclassed by either the Necrons nor the Death Wing Terminator army I faced. I'm curious to see what more of my games feel like considering I play CWE and not Ynnari.

Came directly from one of the play test groups, I've trudged through so much material I can't remember which one it was now. They are certainly not as bad as I was expecting, and there is a difference playing CWE with Power level vs Points, with points being where things seem to go wonky.

Early games were rather good as everyone is working out how to optimize their armies. Now that I've started to work out optimal lists for other races, I can see how we are on the back foot. Again its not all doom and gloom, they have done a fairly good job of it, we just need a few tweaks mostly to do with point costs.

[Fenris]

OK, some people need to take it a bit more easy with their "hail GW" religion.
GW won't fix anything, unless it suits their latest cash grab.
GW is a company that wants to earn money, if they can sell crap they will continue to sell crap as long as people pay for it. I suggest people stop throwing good money after bad until GW actually fix things, otherwise they will never fix anything.

No, a new codex will not fix anything, because it never has, sure some units might become more powerful with a codex, but usually the inherent flaws will only become more obvious, and good units becomes OP while bad units become unplayable.

I know it's not easy balancing a game with all these factions and special rules, but if
GW can't be bothered by actually thinking anything through (before they sell it) they should either:
A. Cut back on the number of factions (especially the SM ones) or
B. Put in enough effort to make every unit for each faction to be balanced.

I know how poop smells since 3rd ed dropped, and I get the same scent now.
I could balance some of the CWE units better than GW by just taking an arbitrary number out of thin air, it's that bad.

Also saying "but power levels are balanced" is just wishful thinking, power levels is just to avoid any actual balance, it's like "I will put this bag of chips on the table and anyone can grab from it" and call it "we shared that bag of chips equally".

And GW's listening to people, is actually a matter of them finding who ever screams the loudest gets heard, with absolutely no idea of wether it is something that needs to balanced or not. Usually it's some oddball SM character with a combiplasma, that is insignificant.

Now please let us get back to constructive criticism, rather than "I feel this" or "I feel that".

[Blazinghand]

This is the kind of thing that was intentionally removed from 8th and I don't want it back.
And Guardian cats don't cost anything because they're the only model that has them. That's typical for specific unit-only weapons.

DAs should really be 12-13 ppm. Avenger Cats should be 2-3 points each. Problem solved.


Twin Cats are also tank equipment, hence their cost. Bike model points can be considered reduced appropriately to compensate.

The humble Shuriken Catapult is not used only by Defender Guardians. Wraithlords have two Shuriken Catapults (not twin Shuriken Catapults) unless they upgrade them to flamers. You also see the Shuriken Catapult in Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, though it's of course being used by a Guardian.