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Offline ShadowSkin

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So how much do you tell them?
« on: May 22, 2005, 05:53:56 PM »
 Ok, I am playing 2k against bugs. I have two WWP's, I open them, he is close to both and easily has enough models to pin me in although most of my stuff was in raiders so I was probably ok, but he had no idea he could trap me by surrounding it. He marched on them, over them, around them, but let me come pouring through with my stuff by always leaving part of it open.  I didn't tell him. I don't think I should have, but I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks.
  It's kind of the same for my whole army. Most people don't know DE around here, they spend the whole game shooting at my troops and raiders, that really are there so people will shoot at them, or to deliver the WWP's. Once again I just keep quite while I march my wyches into their backyard, but it almost feels like cheating.

Offline Arcas

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2005, 05:58:39 PM »
Well, raiders can move over enemy models, so they are evidently exempt from the 1" proximity rule. It's technically impossible to block the WWP for raiders.

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2005, 06:13:09 PM »
I think what shadowskin meant was, should he have told the bugman that he couldn't exit non-skimmers through portals if he surrounded it. I personally think you shouldn't have told him anything. I like that kind of suprises and finding out the hard way things :). That also applies to my enemies as well. Like, as i have never faced necrons, and only once or twice faced chaos, i'd like to be surprised by their abilities like necrons selfrepair and whichever chaos troops have the "know no fear" thingy. I think thats one of the things that makes you an experienced player. Not that you have read every races codex inside and out, but that you experienced what they can do.

On a not-IMO note, i don't think there are any official rules that says you need to tell him anything. So its more on a personal prefference.
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Offline mr_mich

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2005, 09:17:15 PM »
For the most part, it's his fault for being ignorant.  Whether he's new or a vet, it's your duty to know your enemy.  If he's shooting all the wrong things and making tactical moves, you can tell him about it after the game and he'll walk away a much better player, and with higher hopes for the rest of his games.  If you hold his hand though, he'll never improve as a player and you'll probably come off as a cocky jerk. 

My friends always tried to shoot at my Jetbike haemonculi thinking that he was carrying the WWP.  After I deployed it, they were in shock, and I showed them my army list and the entry in the codex that said jetbikes CAN'T carry WWP's.  It's their fault for not knowing, I'm not going to keep on them about knowing the rules.  One of the players even PLAYS dark eldar and he didn't know, so in my opinion, you don't have to tell them anything.

Offline Lomendil

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2005, 09:41:13 PM »
I didn't tell my usual opponents at first. Rather, I didn't volunteer the info - but when some of them asked what they could do to stop the WWP strategy I gave them some pointers, including the ability to block off the portal.

Offline ShadowSkin

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2005, 12:02:15 AM »
 This guy said, can I close that? To which I replied, nope! "So if I'm standing on iy can you still come out?" "Yup."
 "I thought to myself, should I tell him he can surround it?" It seemed a dumb idea to tell him how to defeat my one edge.

Offline Bronze

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2005, 07:36:09 AM »
A difficult question - I usually feel uncomfortable beating someone just because they didn't know something important about my army (such as blocking a WWP), but then feel it seems silly spending the 10min before a game telling my opponent exactly how to beat me. I usually get around if by asking whether we should go through each others' army lists. If they don't want to, I only tell things when it becomes necessary, but if they do then I go through my list explaining all the special rules and expect them to do the same. I don't expect them to have read the codex, though - the damn things are expensive and it seems unfair to expect everyone to buy everyone else's codex on the off chance they meet some obscure permutation of the space-marine special rules that only apply when allied to catachans (I don't know if such rules actually exist, but therein lies my point....).

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Offline ArchonCryx

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2005, 08:49:42 AM »
I definitely favour an open book attitude when it comes to opponent's knowledge of my special rules. I always offer to explain and will gladly answer almost any question. I like the dice and my strategy to decide the outcome.

If he asked "Can I close it?" I definitely would have told him that yes indeed, if he surrounded it then all my non SKimmer Vehicle mounted squads and Jetbikes would be blocked in.

I feel it's completely reasonable not to tell people when they plow away in ignorance, but as soon as they ask something like "Is there anything I can do to stop the WWP?" I would have replied yes. I would have told him that a) if he kills the model carrying it then it won't deploy and is lost for this battle. And b) if he surrounds it I can't march foot sloggers like my warp Beast pack out of it although Raiders etc could still come out.

WHen describing my army to opponents at tournies, I do always try to see if they're familiar with DE and if they're not, to run through the special rules for them. I encourage them to feel free to ask anytime. WHile a question like "How do I beat your army" is appropriately left unanswered in the heat of battle, "How do I take advantage of your special rule" is quite different, and pretty much needs a cleanswer whenever it's asked. This includes telling him, if asked, that a WWP can be surrounded, even though he's asking the question before he's moved his bikes which will be able to surround it.

Your "edge" comes from your skill in using a piece of wargear, surely? Fpr me, there is much less satisfaction from a win that was basically due to the ignorance of my opponent. Far far better, and much more fun, is the game vs the grizzled veteran who's played this (or similar) force many times before. If I get a victory despite my opponent's full knowledge of my special rules and exploitation of it's weaknesses it's far far more satisfying. Trust me on this, games are more fun when it's straight up competition. Sure, be sneaky and deadly, but remember it's still a game. How fun would Monopoly be if one person were able to buy hotels for whatever property they got (instead of needing sets and building up houses to get to hotels) while everyone else couldn't. They'd almost certainly win game after game, but how long would opponents continue? The point is, how much fun is it for them?

I think that guy will feel a bit miffed when he discovers that indeed he can surround a WWP. If you had any foot squads in there at all, well, it was a bit too tricky this time. ;)
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Offline ShadowSkin

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2005, 09:27:28 AM »
 Had I had any foot sloggers in there, I think I would have told him.It was more the whole concept that got me thinking.
 Being new and only playing DE, I know vitually nothing of others armies, I just wing it. I might ask for specifics when I get into it with something and I trust what they tell me when they say this or that didn't work, but I don't know if they are volunteering all of their secrets.
 I think I agree, from now on if asked about it, I will tell them, they do know about killing the carrier.
 

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2005, 10:36:01 AM »
Another case is if you play someine who hasn't played that much, i would probably tell everything he would want to know about my army. I remember when i started to play DE and lost my first 10 games in a row. But against a normal player, i would answer most thing in a yes/no type of answer, not specificly what he needs to do.

On another note. If my opponent doesn't know that grotesques can't be harmed by bolters, and fires on them with his marines. Do I then a) tell him that the bolters didn't do any harm, and thats it for their shooting. or b) tell him that they can't be harmed (after he tried to shoot) and ask him to choose something else to fire on?
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Offline Ollieb

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2005, 11:14:28 AM »
Before I play a game I hand my opponent my list and ask if he has any questions about units/weapons/wargear/special rules ect and request a copy of his list for the same.  I have no problem expaining a special rule further.  After the die start rolling, let an anal "rules lawyer" type request to take a move back because he didn't know and it's sorry pal you had your chance to ask.  Would he let you back up and repostion your HQs Raider because you didn't realize that Lascannon had LOS and range?   

The third turn is not the time to be finding out that bolters don't harm grots or that skimmers can fly over surrounded WWPs.   
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Offline Defcon

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2005, 04:16:00 PM »
On another note. If my opponent doesn't know that grotesques can't be harmed by bolters, and fires on them with his marines. Do I then a) tell him that the bolters didn't do any harm, and thats it for their shooting. or b) tell him that they can't be harmed (after he tried to shoot) and ask him to choose something else to fire on?

I used this once on a Tau player as he didn't know the rules.  He said "I'm shooting at the grotesques now" and I said "alright."  As he was picking up all of his dice I informed him of the Grotesque rule, to which he kept picking up dice and I begged the question "What are you doing?"  He said he didn't have to shoot at the grotesques because he couldn't target them as he couldn't hurt them.  I asked "How do you figure?  You didn't know you couldn't hurt them" to which he immediately began to get an attitude.  Now I typically explain anything to anybody about my army when they ask, not so much tactics in the heat of battle, but how things work with wargear, etc., and what the capability of things are.

Now, he didn't ask, and he continued to shoot at another squad after crying at me for some time (I was really suprised he was such a poor sport), without even giving me the benefit of any sort of dice roll to dictate who had the answer one way or another.  That was the only time (thus far) that I've lost with Dark Eldar in a larger than 40k-in-40 to someone who clearly knows the 4th Ed rules, and I am still a bit iffy over the fact that I could consider him an adequate enough player to determine if he really should have the benefit of being a victory. 

And yeah, the grotesques being shot at was a pivotal moment, as it was a full squad of Devilfish Fire warriors that were trooping it around and would've been adequately decimated by my Haemonculus who had his destructor at the ready :|.  People who can't handle not knowing everything and expecting you to tell them -before- they make a tactical mistake how to change things (I believe in negitive reinforcement, or rather teaching via mistakes made being detrimental, as in something that will -remind- you of a rule) to better suit themselves.  He then asked for my codex, read everything about the grotesques, and generally my whole codex to learn at least the statistics of the Dark Eldar on the field. 

So, I think you shouldn't tell them unless they ask, of course.  Not to be a jerk, but because in my opinion, people will remember something that detrimented them more than something they just received before-hand, and it will make them a better, and more intuitive, gamer, which hopefully is the goal of most people here, especially with Dark Eldar ;)
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Offline Rathnard

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2005, 01:04:43 AM »
In a game, I generally tell my opponent everything. I point out who has the WWP/s, what each of the raiders carry, how certain units work (mainly in regards to grotesques and mandrakes), and how the WWP works.

The only real exception is that I don't deliberately point out that my infantry can't emerge if he surrounds it - I instead just make sure he knows it works like a table edge for troops emerging and let him connect the dots himself. Of course if he does ask that, I'll acknowlege it and point out which units will and won't be able to emerge (ie. Most infantty can't, talos can't, skimmers can, jump troops can)


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Offline Vindur Darkblade

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2005, 05:00:15 PM »
I used this once on a Tau player as he didn't know the rules.  He said "I'm shooting at the grotesques now" and I said "alright."  As he was picking up all of his dice I informed him of the Grotesque rule, to which he kept picking up dice and I begged the question "What are you doing?"  He said he didn't have to shoot at the grotesques because he couldn't target them as he couldn't hurt them.  I asked "How do you figure?  You didn't know you couldn't hurt them" to which he immediately began to get an attitude.  Now I typically explain anything to anybody about my army when they ask, not so much tactics in the heat of battle, but how things work with wargear, etc., and what the capability of things are.

actually i think he was right maybe this isnt in the bgb but in the bbb it said unless its in the special rules units cannot fire at units the cannot harm, and therefore he can shoot at something else
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Offline Mahahelel

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2005, 05:23:19 PM »
I'd like to see where it says that you can't shoot at models you can't harm. Because I've had to frequently had to fire my talos at monoliths/landraiders and other such heavy armored vehicles. If that is true then it would be nice.
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2005, 06:19:52 PM »
The thing with the talos is that its not actually aiming at anything. it just fires off everywhere and hopes to hit somthing useful once in a while
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Mahahelel

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2005, 07:55:31 PM »
Yes but the talos can still only fire at legitimate targets, so if something that can't be hurt isn't a legitimate target then it couldn't shoot at it.

If it was completely random it would target your units as well as your opponents units, fire into CC and other such things.
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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2005, 05:25:34 AM »
good point :)
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Landerah

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #18 on: June 6, 2005, 02:07:43 AM »
The problem with WWP is that all opponents always ask "Can I kill it?" so not telling them about surrounding the portal is really low if they sepcifically ask you like that. But I've always believed that it is a generals job to know how other armies work anyay. If you were an Imperial Guardsman, would you know how a webway portal worked. Or even a Commissar? YOU are the general of the army, therefore you should have the responsibility of reading codexes/asking other players.
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Offline Gremlare

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Re: So how much do you tell them?
« Reply #19 on: June 6, 2005, 04:43:12 AM »
Would the dark eldar tell their enemies of what's coming?  I don't think so.  You are the general of your army when you face your opponent.  Strike fear and uncertainty amoungst the most weak minded.

I tend to keep reeeeal quite and let them gain confidence right before I unlease the wave of doom.  If he asks me questions I tell him exactly what he wants to know.  If he doesn't ask questions, that's his own choice.

I'm fair at demand, but no further.  After the game we often discuss tactical advice and that's when it's fine to spill the beans.  This makes for an even more interesting game next time.  :D
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