Topic: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion

[Partninja]

I've been using two regularly. Keep in mind, it has a 12" melta range, not a 6. It's also TWO shots which is fairly reliable. I walk them up along my foot units (My whole is foot slogging). I find people waste shots on it trying to take them out, which they generally shrug off. Once they are within melta range of my target, they pop it, then act as assault support or let the unit they are escorting tie them up.

I also have been using Nemesor Zahn, so getting tank hunters doesn't always require them to get in 2D6 range.

Unless you are using a mainly foot army, you are probably better off using other more efficient options. For their price, you could take three Spyders to pump out tons of scarabs into one big scarab squad.

[Gutstikk]

Remember that quantum shielding is of no use for attacks directed against the rear armor. In CC the triarch is much less resilient than against shooting attacks, but it's still very survivable.

[Kaiju Senso]

Remember that quantum shielding is of no use for attacks directed against the rear armor. In CC the triarch is much less resilient than against shooting attacks, but it's still very survivable.

Except you always fight against a Walkers front AV in close combat. Luckily for us, Quantum Shielding doesn't only work against shooting attacks, which is what the fluff seems to describe.

[Partninja]

Remember that quantum shielding is of no use for attacks directed against the rear armor. In CC the triarch is much less resilient than against shooting attacks, but it's still very survivable.

Blows against walkers are always against front armor in CC and Quantum shielding still applies...I would say more things can hurt it at range than in CC (besides things that are S10 in CC which are few).

[Gutstikk]

Teach me to complain, lol. Not used to fielding walkers with differing armor values. That's actually quite good news then, at least to me .

[Partninja]

Teach me to complain, lol. Not used to fielding walkers with differing armor values. That's actually quite good news then, at least to me .

Guess you've never been stuck in CC with a Dreadnaught? It can be painfully and excruciatingly long fight.

[syth773]

I beleive immoblisation lets you hit their rear armor, good thing triarchs have move through cover.  Guessing they were meant to lurk around forrest terrain or something similar to gain the cover advantage with a smaller chance of mishap.

[Idaho]

You always hit the front armour against walkers, regardless of their mobility. If immobile the walker loses an attack.

Still, you don't really want your Stalkers in assaults as they don't even have power weapons, let alone their strengths are shooting based. Best to keep them in the line for protection.

[Partninja]

Obviously you want them to shoot, but 4 high strength attacks on the charge isn't shabby. Sometimes you need to assault to tarpit a unit mid-late game, or to assist a squad in CC if no other shootable targets are/still a available. CC isn't their purpose but is useful in a pinch.

[Kaiju Senso]

Obviously you want them to shoot, but 4 high strength attacks on the charge isn't shabby. Sometimes you need to assault to tarpit a unit mid-late game, or to assist a squad in CC if no other shootable targets are/still a available. CC isn't their purpose but is useful in a pinch.

Agreed plus it can be useful to use the Heavy Flamer and then assault the last guy or two sitting on that objective. There are a lot of models that can't hurt AV13 so it works great as a tarpit if necessary.

[prot]

I'm going to be forcing Flayed Ones into my lists, but aside from them I think perhaps a Stalker or even two might creep into my list. The ability to swap out weapons is something that could be great in a destroyer list.

I sure hope they come out with the model, but I am swamped with new stuff right now.

Flayed Ones have to perform though. IMO they compete almost directly with Scarabs (fast attack) for the category of 'budget assault'. We'll see if this works out.

[Gutstikk]

Scarabs compete with Wraiths, Destroyers and Tomb blades though - Tomb Blades are an excellent fast option that would be really hard for me to pass up, Wraiths are of course an obvious scalpel unit, and Destroyers, while not my style, are certainly a good pinning unit (not in terms of the pinning rule, but in terms of forcing enemy units to keep to cover or get vaporized). Scarabs also tend to have a more predictable point of entry and can be dealt with before lines close. It may be of greater benefit for a canny player to eliminate all the scarabs they can for the sake of removing the Spyder's ability to replace them.

Flayed Ones don't need to be fielded in such quantites to be a spearhead assault element when utilizing outflank. They also have far less competition in their own FOC slot - I can see people wanting to field multiples of anything in the FA section of a Necron army, but the elite section seems to be much more selective. So if you want to stuff flayed ones into a list it's not going to disrupt it much regardless of the type of army you're bringing. Scarabs on the other hand might require more of a sacrifice, and also immediately make you want to drop in tomb spyders (though of course these are hard to pass over even without scarabs).

At any rate, the two units make sense in the CC-oriented army working side by side. If I end up sticking with my old force - which would be far cheaper than buying what I need to make a high-speed warrior focused army - I'll probably be using 2 units of flayed ones and 1 unit of scarabs. I just need something to force the enemy into the middle of the table so I know I can reach them. Still not sure what the third elite choice would end up being; either Lychguard or Praetorians, most likely.

[enlg]

One interesting combination could be the abyssal staff cryptek in a unit of deathmarks.

The deathmark's can mark a target for their "unit" to wound on a 2+ against. The cryptek joins them and therefore gets a flame template wounding on a 2+ ignoring all armor saves and feel no pain. Pretty brutal and I could imagine a night scythe being a good carrier for it. Not to mention with Nemesor, you could give the night scythe stealth, giving it a 3+ cover save to help you out.

[Partninja]

One interesting combination could be the abyssal staff cryptek in a unit of deathmarks.

The deathmark's can mark a target for their "unit" to wound on a 2+ against. The cryptek joins them and therefore gets a flame template wounding on a 2+ ignoring all armor saves and feel no pain. Pretty brutal and I could imagine a night scythe being a good carrier for it. Not to mention with Nemesor, you could give the night scythe stealth, giving it a 3+ cover save to help you out.

While the wording would allow this, don't get used to it. I think it will be FAQ'd to only effect the Deathmarks specifically. We'll see I guess.

[Idaho]

Scarabs compete with Wraiths, Destroyers and Tomb blades though - Tomb Blades are an excellent fast option that would be really hard for me to pass up, Wraiths are of course an obvious scalpel unit, and Destroyers, while not my style, are certainly a good pinning unit (not in terms of the pinning rule, but in terms of forcing enemy units to keep to cover or get vaporized). Scarabs also tend to have a more predictable point of entry and can be dealt with before lines close. It may be of greater benefit for a canny player to eliminate all the scarabs they can for the sake of removing the Spyder's ability to replace them.

....

I think the point Prot was making was not Flayed Ones compete in Force Organisation slots with Scarabs, as it's evidential that isn't the case, rather the Flayed Ones and Scarabs are both performing similar rolls in his list, specifically one of harrassment.

Personally I would go Scarabs every time unless I was planning on filling my Fast Attack slots. Which I am, namely Wraiths and Heavy Destroyers! But I would still prefer a single unit of Scarabs over the poor old Flayed Ones. They just don't have the speed or reliability of deployment or combat power to warrant a position in a list except when Fast Attack slots are full.

[prot]

Yes, thanks. That was where I was going with the comparison.

For me it's more about a point-for-point comparison as opposed to Force Org chart comparison.

You get a LOT of bang for the buck with Scarabs. And you need it. I think assaulting with any unit that is pretty much always going last is really, really hard to get success from in any sort of reliable fashion.

[NecronCell2131]

 So ive changed my opinion about flayed ones at least against orks. Took Nemesor and a unit of 20 flayed ones, put them in cover with stealth. Ork boy squad 30 strong got close i took away there furious charge, gave it to my flayed ones and watched his entire squad except for the big mek and nob die.

 With the Nemesor i feel flayed ones are a great, without still good but not something i would run.

[Partninja]

20 Flayed Ones in general is pretty good, since like Orks, they have numbers to make up for their short comings. Now the thing to consider is if that 260 points is worth it considering a tactful player can keep them from infiltrating in a good spot, or getting caught in an outflank. The Orks get double the models for similar cost.

This isn't to say you shouldn't take flayed ones, but rather a larger squad of 15-20 should be taken, and your list should be able to utilize them. A few guys in our group are using them, along with Obyron/veil shenanigans to wreck havoc on the opponents deployment.

[Azonalanthious]

So ive changed my opinion about flayed ones at least against orks. Took Nemesor and a unit of 20 flayed ones, put them in cover with stealth. Ork boy squad 30 strong got close i took away there furious charge, gave it to my flayed ones and watched his entire squad except for the big mek and nob die.

 With the Nemesor i feel flayed ones are a great, without still good but not something i would run.

Orks are a reasonable comparison.  Maybe its my background in orks, but when I look at flayed ones (from a game perspective, not a fluff one of course!) I see REALLY tough ork boyz with infiltrate.  I just really wish there was a way to get a warscythe into the squad without using an IC, and I would be delighted to run them just like a boyz squad with a power klaw.