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Author Topic: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?  (Read 7779 times)

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Offline Jehan-Reznor

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2007, 08:26:38 PM »
If there is a record of these ancient time it would probably be on mars.
closely guarded by the tehnocrats of mars.
(or set in a strange box called windows 300.11 start up takes 5 weeks, uses 30% of mars energy, has an illogical system and shutsdown for no apperant  ::))
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Offline 112740

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2007, 10:07:48 PM »
(or set in a strange box called windows 300.11 start up takes 5 weeks, uses 30% of mars energy, has an illogical system and shutsdown for no apperant  ::))
LOL, you just made me laugh.

But on topic, I find it a bit unrealistic for such a well documented civilization to lose any records of past life. Well, there will always be fossils! Thanks!
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2007, 11:20:17 PM »
But on topic, I find it a bit unrealistic for such a well documented civilization to lose any records of past life. Well, there will always be fossils!

Considering what happened to the surface of Terra during the Heresy I doubt there are going to be many fossils left...
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Offline Gornon

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2007, 02:08:05 AM »
Quote
They do, and especially the puny signals that radios broadcast with. They can travel the globe a few times, but then they are all but dissipated. If you stood a lightyear out you would pick up the occasional broadvast, but most of it would be static.
   The things we are listening for is that kind of static, and anything that is so rhythmic that it cannot be a natural coincidence.

I count myself shot down. :D  Thanks for the info though.

Is there anyway that info about the past can be gleaned though an auto-seance?  As what happened in the last Esienhorn book, when the psykers dug up the pictures of the destroyed daemon city.  pg 718-721 Omnibus.  However, i will note that it took a lot of effort to do, needing a large group of psykers.  I doubt that a normal historian or archaeologist would have access to the resources and influence needed to get a group of psykers.
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Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2007, 02:20:26 PM »
I imagine it would be possible, but not very useful.  Why?

- I believe it would be difficult because quite a lot has happened on earth since those times, thus meaning newer and more recent psychic imprints.  In the Eisenhorn book, they were pretty much trying to read the last major psychic imprint, which would be much easier.

- Even if it did work, what good whould it do you?  Sure, you do a look back to 2000 and see people in big cars watching a lot of TV.  Doesn't do you much good now, does it...

Myself, I believe there is information out there, if a person is willing to give their life to digging it up.  Personally, I would think the information level would be akin to what we know about the ancient Babylonians.  Now, for most people, we know them solely as a name with perhaps some few vague images.  For the most part, who gives a damn about what happened 5K years ago?  Now make that 38K hears ago, and only the most dedicated scholars would bother digging.  So yes, such persons could comb through the various remnants of records from such time and patch together a vision of what things were like, but few would be likely to do so and any such results would likely take life times to put together and be very dry and cerebral affairs.

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Offline Lord Commissar Spiteful

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2007, 05:47:11 PM »
I don't know. I personally believe that future generetion will consider us a dark age. Consider how we keep records. mainly 2 ways: paper and digital. If it's digital, it's as good as lost. Even if they find a cd 200 years from now (you heard me, a mere 200) it's unlikely that people would be able to read it as it would be incompatinle.

1000 years from now, they would have little idea of HOW the cd works and it would be well and truly useless. in 3000 years, they'd be comming up with theories as to what a cd is based on ancient diagrams uncovered.

Next we have the paper trail. One reason that we have so much information from precious ages is that the writing was done in monuments like the pyramids, on leather and baked clay tablets. Essentially they lasted. Paper doesn't last as long or very long at all.

Now consider this. No paper, no electronic recordings, what do we have? Our monuments. Sorry boys and girls, but we don't really writ on monuments these days. Building are a lot more functiona and economical. And those that do remain? well, if any even that causes us to forget what we have recorded (ie prevents us from continously compiling and updating information on a global scale) occurs, well, I'm thinking the monoments would be pretty wrecked themselves.
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Offline eternallybored

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2007, 08:01:38 PM »
Another point to consider: I'm pretty sure it talks somewhere in the BGB about countless scribes on Terra who are constantly chronicling events that occur, and all their writings are sealed away and often lost as soon as they finish writing them in vast libraries of knowledge too large for anyone to find anything they are looking for. If the people in the 41st millennium cannot find information related to their own time, it seems highly unlikely that any history beyond stories of the emperor is findable. Even if records existed, they would be buried in the mountain of new information being collected and written down every day, and it is unlikely anyone looking for something would be able to find it.
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Offline Bumbles

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2007, 03:20:45 AM »
Now consider this. No paper, no electronic recordings, what do we have? Our monuments. Sorry boys and girls, but we don't really writ on monuments these days. Building are a lot more functiona and economical. And those that do remain? well, if any even that causes us to forget what we have recorded (ie prevents us from continously compiling and updating information on a global scale) occurs, well, I'm thinking the monoments would be pretty wrecked themselves.
Especially after events at the end of hte Heresy.

Offline Irandrura

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2007, 04:28:00 AM »
If the people in the 41st millennium cannot find information related to their own time, it seems highly unlikely that any history beyond stories of the emperor is findable. Even if records existed, they would be buried in the mountain of new information being collected and written down every day, and it is unlikely anyone looking for something would be able to find it.

I think you'll find that's mostly image, eternallybored. If a person really needs information and has the authority to cut through the bureaucracy, there's a decent chance they can dig it up. Provided they have access to the relevant libraries, of course. In that respect the Adeptus Mechanicus High Altar of Knowledge is probably the most efficient and accessible, but I expect Terran archives have far more content. The Inquisition in particular would be looking at these. Your average historian likely doesn't have the clearance to view material from those archives, though.

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Especially after events at the end of hte Heresy.

Well, yes. Physical archaeology on Terra is out of the question. There may be many records, though - images, texts, data discs, what have you - remaining in their libraries. The Imperial Palace never fell and it is quite likely that there were archives in the Palace. Records kept off world would surely have survived as well. It's likely that in the post-Heresy reorganisations some effort was made to collect these sources of information and re-catalogue them.
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Offline Aluinn

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2007, 05:08:34 PM »
Although this isn't exactly a reference to the 21st C. in particular, it is mentioned, IIRC, in the fluff about the Emperor's origins (though I can't remember which publication) that he was undercover, so to speak, during our time (through the end of the Age of Strife), and may have taken the role of several influential historical figures under various assumed identities/personae. Now I suppose it depends on your opinion of the Emperor whether you might think he was Jesus, Abraham Lincoln, Genghis Khan, Hitler, or none/all of the above :).

Offline Lord Commissar Spiteful

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2007, 01:34:43 AM »
Didn't it state that he was in sweitzerland or something during WW2. However, what I find interesting is that he pinched 90% of nazi symbolism ;) okay, okay, it pinched from other places first (hence the whole thrid reich thing), but still, puts a gloomy outliook on the way he was planning the impeirum to go rght?
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2007, 02:41:51 AM »
What symbolism would that be? The two-headed eagle was never used by the Nazis, the Emperor doesn't use anything even vaguely resembling a swastika, and organisations like the Imperial Commissariat were not created by the Emperor personally, nor did he have anything to do with their fashion choices. The Emperor stole a fair bit of Roman symbolism (or, considering the time frame, the Roman Empire stole it from the Emperor? An early prototype for the Imperium? ;)), as did the Nazis, but I don't think there's any direct connection between the two.
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Offline Lord Commissar Spiteful

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2007, 03:22:59 AM »
Last time I checked the emperor didn't use the double headed eagle either. ;)

also using a swastica would be dodge in this day and age.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2007, 04:45:25 AM »
Last time I checked the emperor didn't use the double headed eagle either. ;)

It's his personal heraldry. Remember him granting the Emperor's Children the right to use it? It is also the symbol of the Imperium because, well, he owns the Imperium.

Quote
also using a swastica would be dodge in this day and age.

Indeed, particularly in the west. So the Emperor doesn't use it. He also doesn't use any other Nazi iconography I can think of - so where did that original statement come from?
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Offline Jehan-Reznor

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2007, 06:05:48 AM »
It's his personal heraldry. Remember him granting the Emperor's Children the right to use it? It is also the symbol of the Imperium because, well, he owns the Imperium.

I think he ment, before the emperor came to power he used lightning bolds which gives it more a roman spin.

Indeed, particularly in the west. So the Emperor doesn't use it. He also doesn't use any other Nazi iconography I can think of - so where did that original statement come from?

Well if you look at all de old heraldry of the german empire, then i understand where he gets his idea.

And even if the emperor was precent in our time then he has just re-invented himself in the future, image is everything ;)

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Offline Aluinn

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2007, 09:14:47 PM »
I apologize I really didn't mean to open the whole Hitler can of worms, that was just a passing mention there, but now that the can has been opened ...

I can see where Imperial imagery might be compared to Nazi imagery; there are the SM back-banners that look a lot like the Nazi parade banners, the frequent use of laurels encircling various icons, frequent appearance of skulls (though the Imps do this even more than Nazis did), and the Imperial Eagle, while two-headed, is structured similarly to the one that the Nazis used. It was the eagle icon of Austrian Empire that was actually two-headed, but it's depiction was usually more naturalistic (if such can be said about a bird with two heads :)) and not so much like the Imperial Eagle.

Having said that, a lot of that stuff, as was mentioned by other people, derives from Roman iconography which the Nazis adopted (save the skulls). You could say that the Roman Empire really was the empire, and that everyone with dreams of empire to come after them followed their model in a number of ways, including, to varying extents (i.e. less so the British Empire and a few others), their aesthetic. It's not at all odd that the Imperium should do so and doesn't imply, in and of itself, any connections with Nazism.

I would like to say that the Emperor, while he can be compared to Hitler, can also be compared with just as much validity to any number of very different historical figures. He is a warlord, a messianic figure, a living deity, an oppressive dictator, a brilliant scientist ... the list goes on. He can pretty much be what you want him to be, so I think in that regard he's a great character and also, you can see why people would worship him (even not counting his god-like powers)! A soldier, a priest, or a researcher could all find things to admire about the Emp.

Offline Bumbles

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2007, 02:35:15 AM »
(avoiding accusations of thread necromancy by admitting it is thread necromancy because it doesn't make sense to me to create a whole new thread to make this comment)

The novel Fulgrim mentions a number of times Herodotus and the likes of old Earth philosophers. It has Fulgrim's ship full of Terran art and literature.

So it seems that before the Heresy Terran history is still fairly widely known/recognised.

Offline Irandrura

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2007, 02:59:16 AM »
Fulgrim was full of old Earth references. Herodotus, Paracelsus, Irenaeus... Fulgrim even casually references Napoleon at one point.
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Offline chaos0xomega

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2007, 03:19:33 AM »
I don't know. I personally believe that future generetion will consider us a dark age. Consider how we keep records. mainly 2 ways: paper and digital. If it's digital, it's as good as lost. Even if they find a cd 200 years from now (you heard me, a mere 200) it's unlikely that people would be able to read it as it would be incompatinle.

1000 years from now, they would have little idea of HOW the cd works and it would be well and truly useless. in 3000 years, they'd be comming up with theories as to what a cd is based on ancient diagrams uncovered.

Next we have the paper trail. One reason that we have so much information from precious ages is that the writing was done in monuments like the pyramids, on leather and baked clay tablets. Essentially they lasted. Paper doesn't last as long or very long at all.

Now consider this. No paper, no electronic recordings, what do we have? Our monuments. Sorry boys and girls, but we don't really writ on monuments these days. Building are a lot more functiona and economical. And those that do remain? well, if any even that causes us to forget what we have recorded (ie prevents us from continously compiling and updating information on a global scale) occurs, well, I'm thinking the monoments would be pretty wrecked themselves.

While normally this would be correct, there are OTHER ways around this. My favorite being the titanium plates with microfont laser engravings of what-have-you. Trust me, people are working around the problem of passing information down through time without having it damaged or lost permanently.

Quote
What symbolism would that be? The two-headed eagle was never used by the Nazis, the Emperor doesn't use anything even vaguely resembling a swastika, and organisations like the Imperial Commissariat were not created by the Emperor personally, nor did he have anything to do with their fashion choices. The Emperor stole a fair bit of Roman symbolism (or, considering the time frame, the Roman Empire stole it from the Emperor? An early prototype for the Imperium? Wink), as did the Nazis, but I don't think there's any direct connection between the two.

The double headed eagle is a symbol of Tsarist Russia and Austria-Hungary, is it not?

Quote
I can see where Imperial imagery might be compared to Nazi imagery; there are the SM back-banners that look a lot like the Nazi parade banners, the frequent use of laurels encircling various icons, frequent appearance of skulls (though the Imps do this even more than Nazis did), and the Imperial Eagle, while two-headed, is structured similarly to the one that the Nazis used. It was the eagle icon of Austrian Empire that was actually two-headed, but it's depiction was usually more naturalistic (if such can be said about a bird with two heads Smiley) and not so much like the Imperial Eagle.
Roman's did most of that first.


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Offline Aluinn

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2007, 03:55:07 AM »
Quote
Roman's did most of that first.

Thus the paragraph below the one you quoted :):

Quote
Having said that, a lot of that stuff, as was mentioned by other people, derives from Roman iconography which the Nazis adopted (save the skulls).

However, the Space Marine banners really are more like the Nazi parade banners than anything Roman. The Romans for their standards used a pole with multiple metal icons on it, most of the time, sans cloth, IIRC. I mean, I wouldn't say that the Space Marines are Nazis or anything so sensational, but I think that GW has quite intentionally made some connections. And why not? Space Marines hate aliens, passionately and without exception, and different races in fantasy and sci-fi really represent different aspects of humanity, though are not usually direct analogs of actual human races/cultures/societies. They are also genetically enhanced supersoldiers, an idea that is often associated with Nazi concepts of racial superiority and how they related to warfare. Space Marines are ubermensch!

In spite of all that, they owe, as an idea, just as much to Medieval knightly orders, though the Nazi-Teutonic Knights connection has some bearing there too. The Ultramarines are clearly based more directly on Roman legionnaires. And the concept of Marines as knightly orders is more in keeping with the image of the Imperium as a whole, which is less totalitarian dictatorship and more feudal aristocracy, with a powerful religious establishment--far more redolent of Medieval Europe than anything else.

To change topics, that stuff about Fulgrim is really weird. One would imagine that virtually all knowledge of those things would have been lost during the Age of Strife, if not long before. (If there were some catastrophe on Earth a hundred years from now, the 40K timeline that we have wouldn't mention it; it doesn't deal with the near future hardly at all.) Of course, I suppose the Emperor being around would help a bit :). And why mention Herodotus, Napoleon, and Erasmus, rather than any of the probably more notable and impressive figures from the freaking tens of thousands of years between now and the Dark Age of Technology? That would be like me, when I talk about history, referencing only the events and people of the years 1200-1100 BCE, for example, to the exclusion of all else, which would be very odd. Now I haven't read the book so, if he does indeed mention other "historical" figures from our future, then I can't take issue with this really, but otherwise it sounds like some funky writing in that regard. 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 03:58:17 AM by Aluinn »

 


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