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Author Topic: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??  (Read 5468 times)

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Offline FrozenAmethyst

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dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« on: March 21, 2015, 03:31:15 PM »
This isn't something that is personal and need to know. But now that eldar have harlequins as allies alongside dark eldar, which one do people find more effective and why?
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 03:52:46 PM »
Dark Eldar are an easier ally to play with and have more obvious tools, the benefits of which are simple to capitalize on. I think Harlequins will be difficult to ally from both a points management point of view but also tactically. Yet if you could master playing them have far more versatility and can be potentially devastating against certain builds, particularly monstrous creature armies. They have excellent transports (better than Venoms IMO) and with the right mix of kisses, caresses and pistols you can devastate almost any unit. But getting a formation that works for you and taking advantage of rules like Rising Crescendo and the various formation buffs is very hard. You have to tailor not only your Eldar points investment but also the Harlies. I say Harlies for the long run dedicated Eldar player and Dark Eldar for people new to the Eldar in general.


EDIT: Just to be clear I take the easy route myself- Dark Eldar allies all the way! I'm gonna pick up Harlies but it'll be a long road for anybody to master them. I think it'll be worth it in the end but Dark Eldar are far more accessible which is why I use them.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 07:14:10 PM by Cavalier »
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2015, 12:18:30 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with Cavalier on this one.  The DE bring a lot to CWE that directly covers their weaknesses, does it cheaply, and is easy to both incorporate into a list, and use on the tabletop.

Harlequins on the other hand are more difficult all around.  I do believe they have the potential to absolutely decimate their targets, but they suffer no fools, and if you don't have a very good handle on what you're doing, they will fail you.  They are definitely more difficult to get into a list due to the lack of an allied detachment, and most of the formations either force you to take something that you don't want, or can't use, or is just plain more expensive than you can afford.  Unlike DE, you can't just throw some in an existing list and call it good.  I'd almost say you're better off considering the Harlequin formations you're planning on including, and forming your CWE army around those capabilities.  I think they'll pay off in an experienced hand, but they will sorely disappoint the casual user, who'd be better to stick with DE, or just straight CWE.

Offline Dread

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2015, 01:33:01 AM »
Yup, they are both right. As a player of both armies, actually all 3, I would be more inclined to ally with DE. My CWE just really don't need any help. For fun games, taking guardian jetbikes, reavers and skyweavers sounds like so much fun with some flyer support as well as void weavers, venoms and vypers. But just for fun. Be really hard to get all that in a small points list.

As for buying the models to have and paint, they are just as beautiful as the DE range and Eldar (now need jetbike new models).

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Offline Partninja

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2015, 07:24:20 AM »
What do you need from the extra models that you aren't getting from the Eldar codex? Neither is exactly "better" as it depends what you need these extra models to do. DE are easier to ally with, but only because Harlequins have "unwieldy" force organization in regards to using them as allies. 

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2015, 09:33:39 AM »
I think Dark elder are better. Webway portals are the bees knees! Stick a unit of wraithguard with D-scythes in it, or fire dragons and you're laughing!
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2015, 12:56:32 PM »
As previously mentioned, dark eldar are easier to stick into a list, but I think you can get comparable rewards for both harlies and dark kin.  It's just a question of what you're looking to get from them.  Harlequin allies can, for instance, give you a combination anti-tank and assault unit with skyweavers or combine phantasmancy with eldar psychic powers for some scary combos.  Points allowing, I'd love to do some lists that included craftworlders, dark kin, harlies, and corsairs!

I realize you're planning on using crafworlders as your primary detachment, but here's what I've found myself doing lately:  Take harlequins as your main detachment using something like the Masque detachment.  Then, ally in your craftworlders or whichever other space elf faction.  This gives you access to the benefits of the harlequin detachment/formation (which I feel changes how they play significantly) and lets you bring in the other eldar relatively inexpensively using the allied detachment.  Plus, it gives you access to the harlequin warlord traits. Obviously this doesn't help if you want a "splash" of allies rather than a large emphasis on your harlequins, but it does effectively lower the number of points you have to spend on your craftworlder troop section.  The only downside is that you limit the number of craftworlder specialist slots you have access to.

Offline Ibushi

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2015, 01:50:29 AM »
Honestly I have never found a need to want to ally in either from a tactical perspective, but would go for harlies out of the challenge, interest, and fun aspects.

I'm curious what DE allies CWE armies are tending to utilize?

For starters there is the DE webway portal bearer + kabalite warriors package, but beyond this, does anybody go further in allying with the dark kin?

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Offline Cavalier

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2015, 06:52:46 AM »
Haywire Scourges are excellent and squads of Talos are great as well. Grotesques give excellent melee punch too, especially when lifted from the Covens book I've also found the much derided Void Raven isn't bad when paired with a Nightwing its Str 9 lances are phenomenal and the bomb is pretty good too.
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Offline Ibushi

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2015, 02:19:06 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Cav, that is a good rundown -- do you ever use DE jetbikes as well?

In my head I love the idea of and the models for scourges, and I think I would make it happen if they had Battle Focus. As it is, anti-tank of that nature isn't worth the immediate obliteration 24" T3 heavy weapons specialists suffer, but I'd be keen to hear more on that subject.

You have definitely got me thinking on that thought of improved CC though -- particularly the Talos! At 1750 or 1850 you could drop a troop with serpent and the Nightwing for a Corpsethief Claw, which is a real shocker. The combined 42" TL splinter cannons threat radius, Scout, and monster CC punch is a really good deal. Bye bye flying MCs! Bye bye Wraithknights! Bye bye hordes! Combat ability is just the cream on top.

I remember reading about Frankie from Frontline Gaming playing the Corpsethief Claw and not loving it -- but then I believe his list was mostly venomspam and blasters/lances anyway. In a CWE list you have the added psychic support, tougher troops and aspects, and more weight of fire out of backfield.

When I get home I'll see if I have enough models to piece together some kind of converted Croneworld Talos legion equivalent and see how it goes, heh.

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Offline Cavalier

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 06:49:48 AM »
Yep I use Reavers and they are truly excellent. They require cluster caltrops (preferably double caltrops) but with hit and run, skilled rider and their incredible movement ability they are a very good close combat unit, that can get anywhere it needs to go, ignores terrain and benefits immensely from combat drugs and power from pain. If you get gravelotus (+1 toughness) these guys are scary.

As for Scourges their 12" move mitigates the 24" range, especially with ample LOS blocking terrain. But I never use them that way... Deepstrike all the way as I always rock an Autarch to get my reserves in pronto. They are really one of the best anti-tank tools in the Eldar/Dark Eldar aresnal. 4 Haywire blasters pretty much mince-meats any vehicle. Combine these guys with a WWP Firedragon or Wraithguard bomb on to facings of an Imperial Knight and you can kiss that 400+pt model goodbye in a single volley of fire. Furthermore if you army is lean and mean enough they will likely go ignored. Hornets, Wave Serpents and Wraithknights usually draw attention away from them even when they deliver some stinging blows.

Also the Corpsetheif Claw is ridiculously powerful. Probably the biggest game changing formation outside the Necron Decurion. Frankie from FLG actually loves that formation he put in a huge commission when he had his army repainted. It did excellent in his meta (Tyranids galore) but found it struggled when he moved to San Diego. I plan on running it myself albeit with Corsair proxies. While its expensive, if you support it with Venoms and a couple of Razorwings its super deadly.
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Offline magenb

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 10:25:07 PM »

As for Scourges their 12" move mitigates the 24" range, especially with ample LOS blocking terrain. But I never use them that way... Deepstrike all the way as I always rock an Autarch to get my reserves in pronto. They are really one of the best anti-tank tools in the Eldar/Dark Eldar aresnal. 4 Haywire blasters pretty much mince-meats any vehicle.

How do you rate them vs a squad of 6-7 Swooping Hawks (roughly the same point costs) with haywire grens?

Offline Cavalier

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 06:59:27 AM »
They are two totally different units. I use Hawks all the time. Probably my second favorite infantry unit in the game after my Avengers. All that being said Scourges are actually better for take-all-comers lists which I rock exclusively. Outside of Tyranids and Green Tide Orks you are almost ALWAYS going to face vehicles in a game. As Imperial armies continue to surge in power and options with an ever expanding range of Knights, the inbound Mechanicus, cheap 24" haywire toting jump troops are extremely invaluable.

Hawks are a precision unit that is actually very easy to control. No Scatter Deep Strike, the grenade drop, battle-focus and 24" range guns makes for extremely fast, streamlined unit that rewards players who've mastered the movement phase. However their use of Haywire is situational and cannot be planned out-of-game. You have to have the right terrain, the right enemy deployment to pull it off.

Scourges are a little harder to predict in terms of delivery. Yet once they are on the board the 24" range of their guns and 12" movement makes it relatively easy to get them into position. They've got good armor, a little baby 6++ invuln, and power from pain keeps them around in mid-late game. They are also an excellent tag-team for WWP Archon's who are bringing Blaster-Born, Dragons or Wraithguard. What puts them just a notch above the Hawks in terms of overall usefulness is the reliability of their firepower and the immense number of targets they excel at taking down unlike Hawks whose offense drops off immensely against Marines which always tend to dominate the meta.

Whats more they are a Fast Attack option who compete only with Reavers for that lone allied FA slot. For allying purposes I would pass on Reavers as I think a second unit is required to make them a true impact unit (which they instantly become with 2 units).

Overall an excellent unit a perfect compliment to the Eldar arsenal, who sort of sidestep the Str 8 ceiling of most anti-armor Craftworld guns. One of the best units in the DE book to be sure, and easy entry point to exploring Dark Eldar as allies.

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Offline magenb

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2015, 05:20:38 AM »
One of the best units in the DE book to be sure, and easy entry point to exploring Dark Eldar as allies.

Their base weapon isn't too sabby either, have you used them instead of warp spiders for infantry hunting? I'm thinking you could pop a tank with FD+Archon combo and have these clean up anything that spills out, especially against orcs.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: dark eldar or harlequins as better allies??
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2015, 08:33:45 AM »
I do like their normal guns. I wish other DE units had access to them (stock on True Born) but I have so much anti-infantry in my standard list via 18-20 Avengers, 2-3 Serpents, Venom + Warriors, Hawks, Shuriken Cannons on my Nightwing, and even Pulse Lasers on my Hornets that I'm looking for mech-busters more than anything especially as the Imperial Knights continue to roll out of FW.
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