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Offline Khodexus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 04:33:18 AM »
so then, the Shrieker Cannon actually does have more in common with the Splinter Cannon than the Shuriken Cannon, since they both fire tiny pieces of crystal which incorporate (only sometimes in the case of the splinter cannon) poisons.

When the Dark Eldar use poison in their splinter weapons, they also inject the poisons into the 'core' of the crystal, and let it incubate there.  The only thing different I see here is the explosives the harlequins are using in addition to the poisons.

The shape of the crystals fired (disks instead of splinters) is the only part which is more similar to the Shurriken cannon than the Splinter Cannon.

So in essense, you are wrong, Ardeth.  At least in this case.  You really ought to familiarize yourself more with Dark Eldar weaponry before you go making claims and comparisons about them.

Your knowledge of Harlequins is definitely top notch though, and I still appreciate all the contributions you've made both here and in the past.

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 05:25:01 AM »
No, the shrieker cannon does not fire "tiny pieces of crystal which incorporate poisons". I am guessing you missed what I wrote in the last post.

The Shrieker Cannon is a Shuriken Cannon with a bio-explosive shuriken.

It is a shuriken cannon.
It just uses another type of ammunition, simply. The Marsgrech, "screaming death", is a sub-type of shuriken containing a genetically-tailored serum and makes a whining noise when it approaches, explaining the name.
The spilinter cannon fires "splinter-like shards", which is clearly not the same thing, Just because they are both poisoned does not make them similar, just as a scorpion is not the same as an adder.
The splinter-cannon fires shards, the shuriken weapon "slices" of plasti-crystal (whatever that means).
Now if you want to say that the two are the same just because they have the word "crystal" or "poison" in them, that's fine, but it does not make it so.
Eldar and Dark Eldar weapons share certian traits, but they are not the same, or indeed very similar. The Halrequin variant of the shuriken cannon is no more like the Dark Eldar splinterweapons than the Craftworlder one, just because it uses a poison.

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Offline Khodexus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2009, 09:26:30 AM »
In fact it does fire tiny pieces of crystal, just like the shurriken cannon does.  last time I checked, monofilament was pretty tiny, in most people's estimations, and the 'shurrikens' fired by a shurriken cannon are monofilament disks of crystal.

The splinter cannon fires slivers of crystal, which can also be termed "tiny pieces" since they are also quite close to monofilament.  They use the exact same material as a shurriken cannon as ammunition cores.  Chunks of "plasti-crystal" as you yourself have pointed out.  They simply break them apart into different shapes before firing them.

I didn't say they are "the same" I said they have more in common with each other than the shrieker cannon has with traditional shurriken cannons.  As the ONLY thing it has in common with a shurriken cannon is the shape of the crystals it fires.

They are indeed very similar.  They use the same ammunition, the same materials in construction, the same triggering mechanisms, even the same technology to propel the ammunition from the barrel.  The only differences are in the asthetics of the weapons design, and of course the shape of the ammunition.

That's like saying that a .22 caliber pistol has nothing in common with a 9mm pistol just because they use a different system of measurement.

Or in to take in all three comparisons, it's like saying a .35 caliber pistol with explosive rounds has more in common with a regular .22 pistol than it does with a 9mm pistol with explosive rounds.  The only thing they have in common is the system of measurement, or in the case of the eldar weapons, the shape of the ammunition.

Almost everything else is more similar to the splinter cannon than it is to the shurriken cannon.

Your arguments are becoming more and more... silly, Ardeth, perhaps we can get back to the topic at hand rather than discussing something you obviously don't know as much about?

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 10:09:34 AM »
So the Splinter cannon is the same as a Shuriken cannon then? Or "more similar" than different? Oh boy....
They are two different weapons, based on some of the same principles, but developed for different things, by different people. And the shrieker cannon is a shuriken cannon, with another round in the chamber.
Funny, seems that the Dark Eldar do not indeed use the same ammo as the craftworlders, not shape, and not material. The wargear-section makes no mention of the same solid "plasti-crystal" core that is mentioned in the Craftworld Eldar entry. Seems they use something else entirely, although crystal in nature.

If you want to equate the splinter cannon with the shuriken cannon, and thereby claim that the shrieker cannon is the same as well, then that's your lookout. However, they are two different weapons, and should not (or indeed cannot) be mistaken for one another.

And trying to be condescending is never a clever move, as it will sooner or later cross over that border into flame, and see threads locked or removed, as per the rules of this forum. You, more than most, should know this by now.

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Offline Jest of Death

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 12:16:28 PM »
Quote taken from Lexicanum.com,  "The unofficial Warhammer encyclopedia"

"The Harlequins' self-appointed task is to keep alive the legend of the Fall of the Eldar through their performances. They travel the Webway constantly, presenting entertainments based on Eldar tradition and the Fall. They have been known to perform their dance dramas for humans and other non-Eldar, since they believe the Fall holds a lesson from which all races may benefit."

So, if they are trying to keep alive this legend and ELDAR TRADITION, it would make sense that they only use Eldar weaponry.  Therefore, they would always use the same weapons.  Because if they changed, they would be changing the legend of the Fall of the Eldar and the other Eldar traditions that they are trying to show and preserve and tell to other races.

And if they did use different weaponry for different occasions because their at different places with different people of other races, they would be destroying the entire point of them trying to preserve the Eldar tradition.  They are trying to help people remember and be informed of the Eldar.  Now if they did change weaponry, it wouldnt be Eldar technonlgy and it wouldnt be keeping to Eldar tradition.  So if they did change the weaponry for some reason, then its not really Eldar anymore, and the whole point of them even doing it would be gone, which is to preserve and inform people of Eldar tradition and the Fall of the Eldar.

So no, it makes no sense why they would use another races weapons.  They wouldn't use a Chainsword if they performed for space marines because its not "The fall of the Space Marine"  and they wouldnt use a dark eldar weapon because this isn't the "The fall of the Dark Eldar". What they are doing is preserving and informing these races in the History and tradition of the Eldar.  So why would they use Dark Eldar or Space Marine technology to try and tell them the story's of Eldar tradition?


Also, if you really were trying to get them to use Dark Eldar weaponry, im sure you could use a story such as The Harlequin present lost her weapon or it broke for some reason.  And now has to use a Dark Eldar weapon.  If this happened at some battle and she needed to help her fellow allies and had to quickly get back into the battle, i could see this happening.

But when they perform the "The Fall of the Eldar" or any other entertainments about Eldar tradition, I'm certain that tradition and the whole purpose of keeping the story same and telling people about it would kick in, and they would end up useing their traditional Eldar weaponry.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:27:00 PM by Jest of Death »

Offline Khodexus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2009, 10:44:09 PM »
I assure you, I am NOT being condescending, Ardeth, I'm just trying to warn you of digging yourself further into a hole of seeming ignorance.  Something I doubt either of us want to see you do.

And yes, Ardeth, from a technical standpoint, a Splinter Cannon and a Shurriken Cannon run on identical principles, using virtually identical ammunition (with different variations and upgrades), they may use slightly different words to describe the ammunition, but none of those words are mutually exclusive of each other, they were just written by different people, at different times, for codexes released at different times.

Everything in the fluff hints at them being the same technology put to slightly different uses.

So yes they are extremely similar weapons, and the Shrieker Cannon has multiple similarities to each.

Similarities to Shurriken Cannons:
-fires disks
-propellant
-trigger mechanism
-base material for ammunition

Similarities to Splinter Cannons
-propellant
-trigger mechanism
-base material for ammunition
-injected poisons into base material core

And some would argue that the poisoned core is a more important distinction than the shape of the ultimate projectile.  And more importantly, it proves that the Harlequins, and their Craftworld Eldar allies, do not have a significant problem with each other using weapons involving poison, which was one of the arguments against them earlier in the thread.

I never said they weren't different weapons.  However, in point of fact they can, and do get mistaken for each other all the time by imperials, if the fluff is to be believed.

The standard guardsman, and even most guard leaders cannot really tell the difference, at a glance, between most Eldar factions and weapons.  They frequently confused Dark Eldar and Eldar Corsairs, or Eldar Pirates for that matter, with their their Craftworld, and Exodite cousins.  Many Imperials do not even have a clue that there are multiple Eldar factions at all.  But then, many of them do not even seem to care for that matter either.



And actually, Jest of Death, Dark Eldar are still ELDAR, in fact many would argue they are more-so than the Craftworld Eldar, at least when it comes to "the legend of the Fall of the Eldar".

And if what you claim there is true, they wouldn't use shrieker cannons, or fusion pistols, or "harlequin" kisses, because none of those are "craftworld" weapons.  The harlequins have a number of weapons that they created and use themselves.  Weapons which did not even exist before the fall.  So just quoting a reference that says they have a self-appointed task and a heavy emphasis on tradition is not a cannon reference to say they cannot ever change weapons.  In fact, the very idea that they use shurriken pistols, and can swap between regular weapons and harlequin kisses (or a power sword in the case of the troupe master) disproves your theory at least to some extent.

Plus, as I said before, we're talking about an actual combat scenario, not just their performances recounting the fall.  Which, I might add, is not the only tale they perform.  I am not suggesting that they use chain swords, or any other 'races' weapons, I'm simply suggesting that sometimes they might use a weapon crafted in their own style but using a slightly different technology often associated with another faction of the ELDAR race.



So, would it be too much to ask for people to write up their arguments for and against the idea plainly and simply, rather than dancing around the subject, and bringing up tangents (such as Shrieker Cannon similarities) which only barely relate to the subject?

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2009, 04:33:55 AM »
There is an inconsolable flaw in the fluff regarding the Dark Eldar. They are, just like the C'tan (just in a far less elegant way) “shoe-horned” into the timeline of the Crafttworld Eldar and Exodites. That which is now “Dark Eldar” were annihilated in the Fall, prior to 3rd ed. They simply were wiped out, and no reference is made to them whatsoever. Chaos Eldar are portrayled in the fluff with a far greater frequency than these people.
Then 3rd ed rolls around, and GW plasters in their new poster-child onto existing fluff, claiming they were there all along. This makes too little sense, but the impact is also too small for it to matter too much.
Except for the Harlequins.
The Harlequins are a unifying force withing the Eldar race, any faction of it (well, the major four at least). There is therefore reason to speculate, and some small slivers of fluff to substantiate, that they have contact across to the Dark Eldar.
They are, however, still essentially Craftworld Eldar (they still had Soulstones back then), just not based out of any specific craftworld, and added the Black Library. This is in the fluff published. They do not live in Dark Eldar settlements or the Dark City (the city itself being another piece of atrocious fluff, but that's another problem entirely).
Any list published post-intro of Dark Eldar still have the historically used weapon, which are Craftworld Eldar weapons. Not a single Dark Eldar weapon. And this is over several revisions from GW. I think it is safe to say that if GW wanted the Harlequins to be the official “hybrid”-unit between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar they would have done so by now. This is not the case, clearly. GW even went so far as to have the Craftworlders slaughter Dark Eldar in the Eye-campaign (which was another piece of bad fluff, but still there).
Clearly they are not using Dark Eldar weapons. There is no reason for them to, and there is no canon-source of them doing so.
Whatever rationale you make up for trying to shoe-horn this specific idea into your story is up to you, but there is no fluff to back this up. It simply isn't there. You grasp at straws trying to find some, and you are entitled to, but at best, you can amount it to the hack which GW used to fit the Dark Eldar in the Craftworlder timeline (i.e. a pretty poor one, which people accept because GW says so).

The question by the OP is valid enough, but the answer is simply “because they don't” as far as canon goes. GW is doing a poor job at filling out these blanks, and we may never know why, simply that they don't. If you want to go against this, that's perfectly fine, just don't expect anyone to think it is a good idea. For even though the reasons are unknown (and largely unknowable) the effect is still pretty clear; The Harlequins stick with the weapons they were first published with, and do not use Dark Eldar weapons, due to a massive flaw in the fluff GW has created when they shoe-horned the Dark Eldar fluff into place.

I can find a few reasons for this, my favorites being the logistics of more than one common principle behind weapons (look at how many armies historically have used multiple core principles for weapons and see for yourself), the fact that Craftworlders frown at the Dark Eldar weaopons (as outlined above) and the simplest being that they don't need to. However, none of these is the official GW reason for them not to use DE weaponry. Then again, there is no official GW reason. Just the effect. They don't. We are left to try to rationalize why.

I am a bit surprised that this thread has run as long as it has, but it is probably because the OP abandoned it. It is becoming less and less constructive at every iteration however, and if it degenerates into further nit-picking it should be left to die. Don't force its demise by giving into such urges.

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Offline Khodexus

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2009, 08:28:15 AM »
That post was singularly unhelpful, Ardeth.  You basically said, "They don't because it's badly written."  Which ironically makes a case FOR writing a reason myself.

You have yet to provide any reason why "Craftworld Eldar do not like Dark Eldar weapons".  Which, quite frankly, unless you're talking about captured Wraithbone (which we're not) I see as a load of crap, and "grasping at straws" far more than what I suggested.

We don't have to speculate that they h ave contact with the Dark Eldar, the fluff outright says it.  I believe in the Eldar codex no less.

Any list written post Dark Eldar has been for the Craftworld Eldar codex, and thus, to avoid complications in the rules, they utilized the existing weapons for simplicity's sake, and besides is not a "fluff" reference to support them considering it taboo to use Dark Eldar weapons, and so is still unhelpful.

I'm not trying to rationalize what I wrote into my story, I've already done that, the explanation is in the story itself if you'd care to read it.  What I'm trying to do is get a better feel for fan opinion, and the reasoning behind it, so I can perhaps improve my story, and so far all I've received is unfair antagonism, and evasions to all my questions.

And quite frankly, not EVERYONE is opposed to my idea, as has already been shown here in this thread.  And the OP posted this thread after having a discussion of this very sort with me over MSN, and thus we might as well both be the OPs since the topic is mutually ours.

Quote
However, none of these is the official GW reason for them not to use DE weaponry. Then again, there is no official GW reason. Just the effect. They don't. We are left to try to rationalize why.
Which is exactly my point.

I'm not asking for an official reason, I'm asking for a fan rationalization backed up by official sources.

So far I've received some mixed opinions, plus some rather hostile opinions from one person, and none of it seems to be enough to really make me feel a conclusive agreement has been reached, also alot of the arguments against seem very poorly/loosely founded, and I would like to see if some more solid arguments come forth, or if you figure out how better to explain yourself so I can better see where you are coming from.

Thanks again, in advance.

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Offline Jest of Death

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Re: Dark Eldar weapons
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2009, 11:55:51 AM »
In my opinion, to continue this thread is pointless.  You seem determined in your opinion, and their isn't any fluff to say it is or isn't true.

Perhaps if you posted this in the Warhammer Background forum, you might get more responses?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 11:57:04 AM by Jest of Death »

 


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