Topic: Building New Space Marine Army

[Ironhide]

Hi everyone,

I've been thinking of starting a 2nd Space Marine army for a while, thinking of making it a more Assault style army, than Heavy Weapons style (not slating Heavy Weapons, but I've got a fair few in my Dark Angels army).

I was thinking of starting around 600 points. So far I've thought

HQ
Chaplain w Jump Pack and Plasma Pistol

Troops
5 Tactical Marines w Plasma Gun and Veteran Sergeant
5 Tactical marines w Plasma Gun and Veteran Sergeant

Fast Attack
10 Assault Marines, Veteran Sergeant w Plasma Pistol and Melta Bombs
Landspeeder w Typhoon Missile Launcher.

I'm thinking of taking the 2 tactical squads instead of Scouts, for starters, as they have a better Balistic Skill, better Armour save and can take the Plasma Gun which is good Anti-Tank firepower and taking more than 1, so that should I roll a 1 causing it to get hot and explode, I still have a second one.

Also thinking of putting the Chaplain in with the Assault Marines to a) help keep him alive and b) add to extra attacks when they go into assault.

The Landspeeder with the Typhoon Missile Launchers gives a mobile heavy weapons unit, that should support the Assault Marines and attract some firepower, taking the focus off the Assault Marines.

What do people think?

[Ludo]

By picking assault marines and a chaplain you're cherry picking some of the worst units in the codex point for point.  Fluff wise, they are great, but they don't hold up well in play.

If I was only going to play at 600 points here is what I would take:

Librarian with auspex

5 Scouts with combat blades and bolt pistols
sgt w/ melta bomb
land speeder storm

10 Marines in a rhino
melta gun, missile launcher
Veteran Sergeant with melta bombs and power weapon

Stormtalon with skyhammer missile launcher

Thunderfire cannon

Combat squad the marines so the missile launcher is in the rear in improved terrain with the thunderfire cannon. Reserve the scouts and use them to outflank in the land speeder storm. There won't be a lot of AA at 600 points so the stormtalon should survive and provides light anti-tank and high strength attacks in case you need to go after infantry.

[Slick Samos]

Ludo, if Blood Angels or Fire Hawks Chapter Tactics are chosen then Assault Squads become Troops / Scoring.  Raven Guard really benefits how they perform on the table.  A list's effectiveness is a function of commander's play style, fluff adherence, meta, board size, terrain density, chapter tactics, current resources, the expected financial cost of the project, etc...  So don't say it's rubbish before you know!

Working with the list you suggested I'd go for the following few tweaks... but knowing your Chapter Tactics, what theme you want (both background and on the table top), where you'd like to be at 1500pts (or above!) and with any other limitations, restrictions, gaming environment, etc... would be great

600pts is very tight, not even 750pts?  Is this common in your local environment? Are there any restrictions, like in Combat Patrol (400pts) and Kill Teams (200pts - GW, 250pts - The Heralds of Ruin)?

HQ
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack
Plasma Pistol cost the same as a Plasmagun or Combi-... and Meltabombs! At this many points I'd recommend against it...
Ludo suggested an Auspex which would be beneficial for your tactical squads and love of Plasma so perhaps go for that instead?

Troops
5 Tactical Marines
- Sergeant w/ Combi-...
- Plasmagun
You may disagree but I think having a Combi-Plasma or Grav would be more beneficial than the Veteran Status, however the extra point of Leadership is also very helpful!  Ideally take both I guess...  If you want Veteran Sergeants then you may as well buy a Lightning Claw as well

5 Tactical Marines
- Sergeant w/ Combi-...
- Plasmagun
Are either of these squads sitting back and shooting because you may find a Plasma Cannon or Lascannon more effective.

Fast Attack
10 Assault Marines
- Sergeant w/ Plasma Pistol and Melta Bombs You clearly liked Plasma Pistols so I left one in your list here...  It must be your Dark Angels influence...
- 2 Flamers
Dropped the Veteran Sergeant upgrade as the Chaplain is likely to go here.  If you're not using them as Combat Squads then field a few less for a few more troops.  If you are fielding them as Combat Squads then have two separate squads and give both 2 Flamers.

Land Speeder w/ Typhoon Missile Launcher + Multi-Melta
Improved the Anti-Tank potential

Hope this helps?

Slick Samos

As always how the list, items of war gear etc... plays for you will be different than for me so they're only suggestions

[Ironhide]

Thanks for the advice guys.

The reason I went for 600 points to start with, was that our store did a 40K Invasion Day at Warhammer World last year, and there has been talk of doing another sometime soon, this year. This 600 point force isn't going to be the end of the army, I will be adding to it (along with my Dark Angels, Chaos Marines and Wood Elves), this is just the starter idea.

I didn't know who I was being partnered up with until the day (a fair number of us had to go as single people and partner up on the day) so I took a fairly balanced force last year, which ultimately was a Jack of all Trades and King of Nothing and got over run by Ork hordes in all 3 games during the day.

I took the following

Librarian level 2 in Terminator Armour (the only Librarian model I currently have made up)

5 man Tactical Squad w flamer
5 man Tactical Squad
5 man Scout Squad w Close Combat Weapons and Veteran Sergeant w Melta Bombs

5 man Assault Squad w Veteran Sergeant w Plasma Pistol and Melta Bombs

5 man Devestator Squad w 3 Missile Launchers and 1 Lascannon.

My Team mate for the day took a Necron force of

1 Overlord w Resurrection Orb and Warscythe

5 Necron Warriors
5 Necron Warriors

1  Doom Scythe
1 Sentry Pylon (Forge World model)

First 2 games we went up against Orks and Space Marines, 3rd game we went up against Orks and Eldar.

I've done a few other 600 point games with this balanced force, but ultimately it either gets outgunned or overrun as it doesn't have an overall direction for playing.

It could be bad luck or my playing that doesn't work with it, but 5 man squads are easily killed off, hence why I was going for a 10 man Assault Squad.

[Caustic]

I'd like to note that I agree with Lumos when he says that a Chaplain with a large squad of Assault Marines is not a very effective unit to take, regardless of the Chapter Tactics you plan on using (though Samos is right that Blood Angels or Forge World Fire Hawks are the most ideal places to make them work with BA being better). This is for a simple reason - Space Marines are not an assault army. Assault Squads don't have the statistics, weaponry, or the numbers to prevail against the better combat units in the game you are likely to come up against.

Even the single Land Speeder is a bit of a hazard, as if you don't get first turn they are sitting ducks unless you hide or deep strike them. Even if you do these things, there's still a high chance your speeder will get popped early by heavy weapons surrendering an easy first blood to your opponent(s).

At 600pts Space Marines are frustratingly inflexible due to their relatively high price per model, but there are some good tricks you can pull.  Ultramarines with Tigurius & lots of foot marines is no slouch of an army, with the king of rerolls able to increase the accuracy of your guys dramatically. Imperial Fists with MotF, Tacticals and Devestators are also surprisingly good for their raw effectiveness, and White Scars Bikes are never a bad army to run.

In any case, I'd stay away from Scouts (too ineffective at low points, mostly useful for scoring at high points), Assault Squads (double flamer Assaults in a Rhino works nice with Salamanders though, and cheap too!), and consider a Librarian/Master of the Forge instead of a Chaplain.

[Ironhide]

I had also thought about

Captain w bike and  powersword,

5 man Scout Squad w Shotguns and Veteran Sergeant

5 man Scout Squad w Close Combat Weapons and Vteran Sergeant

2, 3 man bike squads w Veteran Sergeants w Melta Bombs

1 Stormtalon w Missile Launcher

or maybe swapping the 2 Scout Squads for 2 Tactical Squads, but I thought that this list may be too dickish, especially if I was to go up against someone new to the game.

[Wyddr]

Assault Squads don't have the statistics, weaponry, or the numbers to prevail against the better combat units in the game you are likely to come up against.

But that's the thing with assault squads--you don't use them against other assault units. You use them against enemy shooting units, artillery, and tanks, and they are pretty good and smacking around those targets. The marines *shoot* assaulty units to death and *assault* shooty units.

For the record, I think assault squads can work just fine in the right list, and work especially good in marine variants that emphasize them.

[Ironhide]

Part of the reason I went with 2 5 man Tactical Squads, was that they would be able to advance, albeit slower than the Assault Squads, and provide supporting fire for the Assault Squad against enemy units, plus the plasma guns could be used against troops or vehicles (although I appreciate using the plasma against a vehicle would mean that the rest of the unit could not fire that turn against anything else).

I found the Devestators, although fairly good, had the drawback of having to remain stationary to shoot, so they weren't as effective as maybe a Predator would have been (though 1 Lascannon shot can destroy a Predator, while it would take 5 shots to destroy a Devastator Squad), which is why I am looking at a more mobile firebase, hence the Landspeeder Typhoon.

I also went for the Chaplain as I prefer his model to the Jump Pack Captain (Lord Executioner) with double handed Poweraxe. Chaplain still gets his 4+ invuln save, plus I believe he has 2 Attacks on his profile, plus he gets an extra Attack for having a second Close Combat Weapon, which ups him to 3 Attacks, or does the 2 Attacks on his Profile take into account his 2 weapons in the profile as listed? I know that a basic Space Marine Profile has 1 Attack, though if you make that Space Marine an Assault Marine with bolt pistol and chainsword, (which is how an Assault Marine is listed) the 2nd weapon adds + 1 Attack to the model.

Also I found that within the time limit for each game, by the time everyone had set up and been playing, we never even finished turn 3 (for both armies) and our reserves didn't make it onto the table in one game.

[Slick Samos]

Interesting stuff.  If the game doesn't go over 3 turns then don't have any reserves...

'I also went for the Chaplain as I prefer his model...' is in some ways the best reason for choosing a unit.  And I agree with you, that Chaplain is very cool!

Have you had any more ideas on the list?

Slick Samos

[Ironhide]

Hi,

Yes, I did have a few ideas and actually came up with what I now believe could be a better SM army at 600 points, thing to remember with Invasion is, although you have 600 points, picked from a Codex and using Force Organisational chart, you also have another 600 point army to (hopefully) back it up. As I had actually got 5 Assault Marines and a Chaplain as Christmas pressies off friends, I was on my way with that original army list.

My latest idea has been

Librarian level 1 with Force Axe

10 Sniper Scouts with Camo Cloaks

10 Tactical Marines, Veteran Sergeant with Combi-Melta and Rhino Dedicated Transport

3 Biker Marines, Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist

3 Biker Marines, Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist

Yes, it is a complete change from my previous idea and yes, I was thinking not to bother with reserves when plotting my army and then I got the sad news from the manager of our local store, that as far as they knew, Warhammer World are not running inter store Invasion days anymore. Whether this is a temporary thing due to their calendar being full, works going on in the area or what, they couldn't say.

I find that quite sad, as I enjoyed chatting with other gamers whom I had not met before on the journey and also my brother and a couple of friends had expressed their interest in going along as well. Hopefully Warhammer World are still going to be running their own Invasions, or a day's Battle Brothers and we could go down as a group (due to funds, I don't think we could afford a 2 day event, what with paying for digs as well as meals, travel AND tournament.