40K Online
The Armies of 40k => The Inquisition => Topic started by: Greg23 on October 20, 2012, 12:52:50 AM
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Ok, after playing six games of Grey Knights in 6th ed, even I have to admit this. Psybolt ammo is pretty busted.
My list?
Brother Champ w/ Psybolt and Brain mines.
Ven Dread Psyfleman
Dread w/ LC/ML
10 man strike squad w/psybolt and 2 psycannons
10 man termies w/ psybolt and 2 psycannons
LRC w/ psybolt and multimelta
Opponents:
1st opponent: Space Wolves Grimnar Wing: Tabled him. Only Lost my LRC to Grimnar in hth.
2nd opponent: Deathwing, one 5 man squad of Deathwing termies standing at the end. Took 3 table quarters, only lost LRC and Brother Champ in hth. Lost the game because the 5 man squad held the only 1 objective and game ended on turn 5.
3rd opponent: Eldar. Only Dark reapers, Farseer, and Dire avengers left standing. Only lost heavy dreadnaught. Lost the game because Dire Avengers sat on 2 objectives to my one and game ended on turn 5.
4th opponent: Grey Knights vs Grey Knights, I lost due to first blood and slay the warlord. Lost Termies and Brother Champ in hth.
5th opponent: Dark Eldar Tabled him, only lost the Ven Dreadnaught
6th opponent: New Chaos Tzeentch 1k Sons. Took 3 objectives to his one. Did not lose a single unit. Killed 1 Defiler, 2 rhinos, 1 squad of 1k sons, 1 squad chaos termies, and 1 chaos predator.
It was pretty gruesome.
The Ven Psyfleman pumps out pain to any light vehicle/MC/walker at a massive distance, the other dreadnaught backs him up. An effective 54" threat radius at full efficiency for both dreadnaughts.
The LRC with Psybolt is a beast by himself. The new 6th ed rules for vehicles may hurt light tanks, but the LRC is now a real beast. Psybolt everything make it pretty beardy. Anything within 30" gets hurt. Anything within 12" eats 17 shots. Plus it's an assault vehicle, plus it can ignore certain effects, plus massive armor, plus POTMS, plus...
Warpquake puts a serious crimp on any deepstrike shenanigans. Forced Grimnar Wing to deep strike way away from me, where I picked him off piecemeal with psybolt/psycannon death.
Pre-measuring takes shooting to the next level. GK end up having an effective threat radius of 30". That's massive.
Rhinos, Raiders, and Ravagers just crumple to psybolt/psycannon shots. Easy first blood points.
Pre-measuring w/ deepstrike and forgiving dangerous terrain rules make deep-striking GK termies very effective. They just appear out of nowhere and start ruining units with shooting. Opponents end up dedicating their entire army to deal with the 10 man squad, leaving the rest of my army alone. And GK termies are scoring without requiring a pesky special character.
Vanilla Brother Champ is a steal at his points cost. He can shut down and "one shot" characters in hth.
Still have yet to face a true horde army , nids, Orks, or IG. Plus I hear Necron Scythe-wing lists are pretty rough.
My fear is that someone at GW will wise up and nerf GK and their psybolt goodies. Seriously, every GK marine effectively has a heavy bolter + relentless +excellent hth. Somethings going to happen.
Eldar had their starcannons nerfed, GW nerfed the Fantasy powerscroll with 1 FAQ. it can happen.
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Well to tell you the truth Greg you style your lists so that the ammo has maximum potency. I think you have a solid list there.
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It is a decent list. But 5 losses out of 6 games doesn't make the ability broken.
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It is a decent list. But 5 losses out of 6 games doesn't make the ability broken.
lol, I'm actually 3 for 6. What's hurting me the most is that I don't have enough boots on the ground to contest multiple objectives. My tactic so far is to "kill 'em all". With 2 of 3 wins coming from tabling the opponent, it's working. But I still have yet to face a true horde army, where "kill 'em all" would be rough for me.
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GW need to wise up and fix that broken dex, its an unbalanced dex wrote to sell models.
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GW need to wise up and fix that broken dex, its an unbalanced dex wrote to sell models.
If this was true he wouldn't be 50/50. Obviously you have some well rounded opponents so if I was you I would sub out the LRC for another fully stocked strike squad. That should give you the edge for a few more wins. I would also change the loadouts on the dreads and drop the Venerable portion.
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im not saying they are unbeatable, but as he said hes basicaly got a full army of relentless heavy bolters that are all psykers with power wepons..... realy? u think thats balanced? im not arguing that grey knights shouldnt be this hard, they are mankinds greatest wepon against its greatest theat but i do feel in game terms they need to be pointed a little higher per man. they are no longer the small elite force they were always made out to b.
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im not saying they are unbeatable, but as he said hes basicaly got a full army of relentless heavy bolters that are all psykers with power wepons..... realy? u think thats balanced? im not arguing that grey knights shouldnt be this hard, they are mankinds greatest wepon against its greatest theat but i do feel in game terms they need to be pointed a little higher per man. they are no longer the small elite force they were always made out to b.
But in balance he has 21 infantry and 3 vehicles, 2 of which are the relatively soft dreadnoughts.
This is a very small army that will get eaten by any list that specialises in killing elite infantry. It will also struggle against hordes, as the poster has already pointed out.
Finally, a 3-6 win/loss record is pretty poor for a list that's being described as beardy and overpowered. The list lacks the bodies to claim objectives and will find the loss of each and every model a serious blow.
Don't get me wrong, the GK dex is capable of producing some seriosuly overpowered lists, but this isn't one of them.
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And even the so called 'over powered' can be countered by a good player. I got tired of others in my gaming group whining like they had a skinned knee, so I threw down a challenge. Play my GK @ 1750 with any army you choose. If I win, we immediatly swap armies and play again and I promise to beat you a second time. So far only three have taken it, but I have won six times.
Most of anyones problems versus GK is in their head. They psyche themselves out before the game even starts because they see that the Knights have some nasty abilities. So does every codex, even the okder ones. For Christ's sake, the DA can take an av14 skimmer that can reliably kill 5-7 guys per turn. The Eldar have more tricks up their sleeves than any four street corner card hustlers combined!
The power of psybolts is offset that it makes the unit more costly per figure. With a ten man Strike Squad you are already paying 22pts/model. Adding PC/Inc/psilencer upsthat even more. Then you have to deal with adding on a transport. There is a balance to the codex. The cooler the amphetamine parrot we take, the less bodies we have.
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And even the so called 'over powered' can be countered by a good player.....
Most of anyones problems versus GK is in their head....
The cooler the amphetamine parrot we take, the less bodies we have....
All this is very true. The last point is the crux of how to kill Grey knights in my mind (however I've faced some pretty swarm like GK armies). They have few bodies and therefore rue each model lost. Killing GK's though is a Ball ache. Troops in terminator armour who put out the hurt at range AND cc... Bring back my starcannons. >:(
I have to say though if you keep beating up on people less able than you you're not going to make any friends. Beating them with their own armies will not help this. Just becaise you are better then them, you don't have to prove it all the time.
I don't believe you should dumb down your army and you certainly shouldn't throw games but are you really having fun tabling every guy all the time?
Psybolts are in my opinion are pretty high powered. Firstly as they are very cheap (on a full strike squad) secondly and most importantly because they augment an already high powered unit.
The problem I have with GK is a fluff to rule translation one. Grey Knights are supposed to be a chapter which specialises in banishing Daemons, however they just so happen to be able to banish everything else too ???
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And even the so called 'over powered' can be countered by a good player.....
Most of anyones problems versus GK is in their head....
The cooler the amphetamine parrot we take, the less bodies we have....
I have to say though if you keep beating up on people less able than you you're not going to make any friends. Beating them with their own armies will not help this. Just becaise you are better then them, you don't have to prove it all the time.
I don't believe you should dumb down your army and you certainly shouldn't throw games but are you really having fun tabling every guy all the time?
I disagree, showing people that it is not the army, but the player is exactly the way to stop people from whining about said army. Of course, this may not necessarily make it easier to find opponents - who may seek someone more on their par instead.
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And even the so called 'over powered' can be countered by a good player.....
Most of anyones problems versus GK is in their head....
The cooler the amphetamine parrot we take, the less bodies we have....
I have to say though if you keep beating up on people less able than you you're not going to make any friends. Beating them with their own armies will not help this. Just becaise you are better then them, you don't have to prove it all the time.
I don't believe you should dumb down your army and you certainly shouldn't throw games but are you really having fun tabling every guy all the time?
I disagree, showing people that it is not the army, but the player is exactly the way to stop people from whining about said army. Of course, this may not necessarily make it easier to find opponents - who may seek someone more on their par instead.
Indeed Oink.
Hence I rotate my armies out vs my opponents so they never face the same army 2x in a row.
Hmm played vs DE last time lets give him Armoured Company this time and next time nids etc etc.
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Hence I rotate my armies out vs my opponents so they never face the same army 2x in a row.
Hmm played vs DE last time lets give him Armoured Company this time and next time nids etc etc.
Yes, I try to do that too - although that is more a defence against anyone trying to tailor their armies against me.
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And even the so called 'over powered' can be countered by a good player.....
Most of anyones problems versus GK is in their head....
The cooler the amphetamine parrot we take, the less bodies we have....
I have to say though if you keep beating up on people less able than you you're not going to make any friends. Beating them with their own armies will not help this. Just becaise you are better then them, you don't have to prove it all the time.
I don't believe you should dumb down your army and you certainly shouldn't throw games but are you really having fun tabling every guy all the time?
I disagree, showing people that it is not the army, but the player is exactly the way to stop people from whining about said army. Of course, this may not necessarily make it easier to find opponents - who may seek someone more on their par instead.
I understand what the guy is saying but I think there is a better way of doing this. At the end of the day the guy is NOT going to go, "oh yes your right, you're simply a better player than me! Let's be chums again" they're going to curse you for not only making them look stupid with (what they perceive) is an over powered army but also that they are an incompetant general using their own army.
Zilverscale's idea of rotating his army is a better way of doing this and likely, keeps his friends! (unless he takes 3 flyers again >:( )
Remember these guys are closed minded enough to throw their toys out the pram in the first place so showing them up will just fuel the tantrum.
Showing them its the "player not the army" is a good thing to do. How you go about it takes more tact. Remember the idea of a game that everyone has fun and enjoys themselves. :-*
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Zilverscale's idea of rotating his army is a better way of doing this and likely, keeps his friends! (unless he takes 3 flyers again >:( )
Especially for you I will field maxed flyers next time we battle :P
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I'm also in the rotate your army group, I only ever play the same army more than once if at a tournament, if I used the same force all the time how could I justify buying more models ;)
Back to the main topic, I think the idea that the GK dex is overpowered is a bit of a holdover from the last edition.
Whilst the necron dex is very clearly designed to be played in 6th I think that the GK dex was also, its just not as clear to see.
A few examples of stuff that was very overpowered in 5th edition but is far less potent now, the problem being people have already formed their opinion on them and haven't reviewed it in 6th:
The main one is fortitude, this was the most broken rule in the codex making all their vehicles super relianble and more resilient. Now it is insignificant rules that might come into play once in a while.
The standard strike knight came with a powersword and stormbolter, a far better loadout than that carried by a regular marine. Now whilst still being better the power weapon is less effective and the standard rapid fire bolter has gotten a big boost putting these two standard units on a far more even footing for their relative points costs.
The power weapon change has made a big impact on alot of the units reducing their alround effectiveness.
Death cult assassins were point for point by far the best assault unit in the game able to take on all comers with relative ease. Now they are still good but far more situationally, again the power weapon changes have had an effect but their main weakness is now due to overwatch and their continued lack of grenades making it very hard for the unit to get into combat.
The changes to the vehicle rules and assaulting has compounded this.
Fully wound allocated units are now a thing of the past, you now don't get Invul saves against perils, feel no pain can be taken against power weapons, all are small but significate changes that have slightly decreased the GK's power. Obviously they have got boosts in other area's but the decreases outweight the increases imo.
I could go on but my point is that the GK's are a very good force and whilst at the tail end of 5th edition I can see how some could consider them broken given the changes to the rules and the shift in the overall meta I now think they are pretty balanced, paying a hefty points premium for the enhanced abilities and having holes in their options that aren't as easy to fill with allies given their complete lack of battle brothers.
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Back to the main topic, I think the idea that the GK dex is overpowered is a bit of a holdover from the last edition.
Whilst the necron dex is very clearly designed to be played in 6th I think that the GK dex was also, its just not as clear to see.
A few examples of stuff that was very overpowered in 5th edition but is far less potent now, the problem being people have already formed their opinion on them and haven't reviewed it in 6th:
I agree very much with your point and this has been my general experience as well. Draigo is lost much of CC power now that he can't punch 2+ armor, and corteaz lists can't take 62pt scoring razorbacks anymore.
Generally in relative power the only model in the Gk codex in my experience that got better in 6th was dreadknight but it still suffers from the same problem that it had in 5th, armies have very good access to ap2 weapons like plasma that often drop them before they are able to accomplish much.
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Actually, doing that has calmed down those three on their GK hatred quite effectively. It's not like I dance around them aftwards rubbing it in. I show them that they aren't playing against an army of gods and that their army is very viable still. I basically teach them how to beat me, and it works as I now have a particular smurf army that gives me hell and forces me to be at the top of my game. I don't do it to show them that I'm a better general, but that they have a self-defeating misperception of an army they tend to know little about. Allowing them to play the Knights gives them time behind the wheel so to speak and learn where the armies strengths/weaknesses lay. I also don't offer this to new players and 2/3 are very good, tournament winning players.
I generally travel with 2-3 armies when I go to play and will either choose by a dice roll or let them
choose. I never play the same list twice in a given month unless it's for tournament practice really. Rotating the armies is good practice, but you'd be surprised at how many actually chose to fight my knights rather than face my CSM or Ravenwing.
Back on topic. I believe the GK and DE codices were designed with 6th ed. half in mind and with the new editions release has brought further balance to GK in particular. Psybolts are a cheap upgrade on paper, but you have to remember you are making an expensive unit even more expensive. For the price of giving iit to an entire army you could buy another Strike Squad,most of the time. With low model count armies every loss hurts more than most think. This must be taken into consideration when judging an armies percieved power. I think, or would like to think anyways, that GW realizes this and many other factors. Hence the with holding of beating the codex to death with a nerf bat.
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Look at what u get for those points per man tho. With SW making a wolfgaurd model as well equiperd as a standard grey knight cost around 30 points a man give or take a point and thats without the psykic abilities that GK come with and lower leadership. We all know the cost of a basic Gk so points per gear they are an absolute bargin.
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Look at what u get for those points per man tho. With SW making a wolfgaurd model as well equiperd as a standard grey knight cost around 30 points a man give or take a point and thats without the psykic abilities that GK come with and lower leadership. We all know the cost of a basic Gk so points per gear they are an absolute bargin.
Yea but wolf guard in terminator armor are cheaper than grey knights in terminator armor are. The comparison you trying to make breaks down once you realize that power armored elite marines having to pay high premiums to buy better gear (mainly CC gear) is actually something that plagues units like wolf guard, vanguard vets, CSM chosen, etc. For instance a wolf guard with a power armor with a storm bolter and power sword is only 2 pts cheaper than a wolf guard in terminator armor with the same gear. Also wolf guard does not equal GK strike in anyway so the comparison lacks there as well.
What you are saying I seen echoed on here and other 40k forums, but what you really saying (probably without realizing it) is you want the previous GK codex back. Where yes, GK still did have better gear put also paid premium prices for it which lead to 50 pt sergeants and 25+ pt basic marines. Which meant 10 man squads of GK in a Rhino with 2 psycannons ended up being something like 400 pts. The codex had a whole different problem and only the most die hard loyal GK players I saw even gave it the time of day. You have to realize all the gear (or at least most of it) that GK have only increases the offensive capability of model and the defensive stats are the just the same, they are only marines at the end of the day.
My point is we tried it your way, it lead to opposite problem with (no offense to my fellow Gk players) a rather terrible codex that really was lacking compared to other codexs in 5th before the most recent GK came out. Even though the fluff in the older codex still made GK out to be the most bad ass snake on a planes in the galaxy, much like the current codex. Also most times I played against the older dex in 5th ed with my Tau and my opponent was running a pure GK list I often tabled him or won rather decisively.
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You are looking at a small picture. Our vehicles cost more and are just as easy to kill with only a small situational benifit. If we want our MC to be deadly, we have to get him into plasma/demolisher cannon range and will cost nearly as much as a loalist Land Raider.Yes we get some badass HQs, but they cost out the whazoo or are GEQ in toughness. Perils is so freaking deadly to even our rank and file, with normal SM leadership even. Our best elites can take up almost half of a lists points in a single unit, and are still just as vulnerable as loyalist counterparts for even more points. If we run the dreaded Draigo wing we have to work our asses off and not make a single mistake on positioning, target priority, and the like. Those extra points add up fast trust me. We might get a bargain in your eyes, but unless we are in CC with MEQ then those extra abilities don't really do that much for us.
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Blood Hawk sums up the comparison issue quite well but you also have the point that a Strike Squad is the cheapest power armour alternative for Grey Knights and still costs plenty, it also is a bit limited in weapons, sure what they have is really good but it lacks versatility against certain targets. To take your example of a Wolf Guard; Space Wolves have Grey Hunters which have a lot of flexibility and beats Strike Squads in some areas while being cheaper. Comparing one unit to another in two different armylists is basically just a waste of time unless the lists as a whole are extremely similar.
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The problem I have with GK is a fluff to rule translation one. Grey Knights are supposed to be a chapter which specialises in banishing Daemons, however they just so happen to be able to banish everything else too ???
lol, that's how I feel too. Not that I'm complaining, though ;) I'm just concerned about the eventual Nerf-hammer.
A vanilla Grey Knight, if there is such a thing, rocks Str X in shooting at twice the efficiency of a regular marine in a distance game and still keeps the option to assault, then in hth has a matching Str X option with a weapon that cleaves through power armor.
Grey Knights gets termies at scoring units without pesky special characters/force org limitations. That's huge in 6th ed, where 2+ saves are the "new black", to borrow a phrase from high fashion.
The pre-measure game plus the psybolt ammo just works in tandem now. +25% stopping power with 2x effective mid range firepower with a serious buff in hth at a 33%-40% cost increase. I'll take that any day.
Tactics-wise, I'm finding the combo of GKSS with Warp Quake plus a Psyfleman very efficient. The Psyfleman gives the GKSS much needed long range support, plus very good anti-psyker support to boot. Warp Quake GKSS keeps deep strike drop pod assault meltaguns, fusion blasters, multimelta dreads, Sly Rambo, Trygons, Scourges, etc, away from the Psyfleman. The anti-deep strike bubble Warp Quake that can be created with a 10 man squad is pretty massive, 18" to 20"denial radius from the squad's center point is not impossible.
The Psyfleman, though not a Land Raider, is not made of tin-foil, either. He can take advantage of terrain plus has full firepower on the move.
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Ya know the funniest part of this argument to me is I hardly use psy ammo. I think it is a super good choice on the units you picked but crazy enough I never focus on those units. I think the best units in the army are stormbolter acolytes and purifiers. I mean point for point those 2 units really do give you the best bang for your buck. 6th is really a shooting game that helps to have CC. With a purifier you get everything you need to win. With acolytes you get someone so cheap and so forth that you just can't lose by taking them. I just wish that 12 wasn't the max for a squad of henchmen. Since the book launched I have always picked coteaz whenever I can and I just think not doing so is a real disservice to point pincher generals.
I hardly take vehicles in my new lists because the amount of shots warm bodies can put out is just alarming.
@Greg I agree with you on the Warp Quake issue but I just find it hilarious when they DS next to coteaz and eat 4 psycannons to the face from a purifier squad. Who cares if they make it when you kill them in 1 total turn of shooting in theirs and yours. Heck if they still are sitting there with a few warm bodies or wounds just walk over and hammer/halberd the rest and then take the free d6 to walk back to where you want to go.
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From a fluff standpoint Daemons are super evil, tough as nails, psychotic, murderous badasses. If the GKs can mess them up with a prejudice, then bashing the heads in of some mortal space faries or half-wit traitors with ease. That's why there is so few of them.