Topic: Dealing with Arrival Lists

[Straker]

Hey all! It's been a long time since I played, but an itch got me back into the game recently. I picked up all the new books I needed (which was expensive enough as-is given the flier supplement and Harlie separation) and just had my ceremonial stomping of my first game back the other day. Meaning, I was completely crushed by arrival Tyranids. I had fun though! So, some thoughts/questions for you all...

I see the footdar advice thread in here, but man did I struggle. Of course forgetting some rules hurt, but I felt even while making my list there wasn't a good way to deal with a reserves arrival list, especially one with fliers. Turns out I was right (at least from a footdar perspective). Perhaps wraithknights make life easier, but I really want to avoid the cheese and don't understand why GW went the route of gargantuan creatures in non-apoc games (well, except for the obvious $$) so for now I want to avoid taking that unit.

While my sample size is just one game, it feels like the best counter is having the option to do something similar. At least not being forced to deploy to an empty board, making it easy for the enemy to arrive and counter your setup, leaving you to try and run and consolidate.

Thus, taking a cloudstrike formation with an aspect host of Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons seems like a strong play.

Generally, I'm stuck between completely abandoning footdar w/o a wraithknight or trying to pull off some hybrid. The hybrid lists though seem to only get synergy at the 2k+ points level given how much the cloudstrike formation takes. Here's the formations I'm thinking for that:

Cloudstrike: 405 pts
3x falcons, Scat Lasers, Underslung Cannons

Aspect Host: 372 pts
6 Dire Avengers, Exarch
2x 6 Fire Dragons, Exarch

That's about as barebones as you can make it without going all DAs.

But I'm having trouble figuring out what to pair this with. Obviously an Autarch, but it sucks not being able to run my WJG model with Spiders given his lack of Flickerjump. This led me to considering running one with Scorpions in a Wave Serpent (perhaps Yriel, perhaps just a banshee mask) and outflanking them, but assault units out of Wave Serpents seem very tough to run in 7th. Am I overreacting to the new transport rules?

I suppose the Autarch could go with one of the units in the falcons, but I'm worried he will just die quickly. How do you guys recommend you deploy the Autarch in an army with a setup like this?

Some other units I think would go well in this army:
1. Anything fast, so bikes, spiders, and hawks.
2. Anything that outflanks, so scorpions and war walkers
3. A Crimson Hunter. Not having anti-air sucks. Although I worry it can't kill a flyrant outright unless you ground it, and a flyrant can totally kill a CH outright.
4. A jetbikes seer Council. The Autarch could go in here, but I just don't have these models and they are $$$.

But all of the above units are expensive, meaning very few models on the table. Has anyone had success combining the above with footsloggers? Probably built around a DA shrine, perhaps another aspect shrine, and wraithlords. I'm worried it would just mean my army was split in two, and a mobile opponent would just pick off each half one at a time. But if anyone has had success, I'd love to hear about it! Thanks!

[Cavalier]

Hey Straker welcome back to the hobby! Yeah I'm not totally familiar with the "arrival" term you are using. Are you talking about "Null Deployment"? Where the Tyranid player had everything off the board T1, then had little buggers popping up afterwards? Just want to make sure.

Also I'm assuming you were dealing with flying monstrous creatures galore. I'm guessing Flying Hive Tyrants and Hive Crones? If you could let us know how many that'd definitely help.

But as for general advice on dealing with FMC's (flying monstrous creatures). Look no further than Dark Reapers. The Dark Reaper Exarch is a beast... equip him with an Eldar Missile Launcher put him and his squad mates on Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon (I favor lascannon, so he gets no armor saves) and blast away because the sucker cannot jink either due to the Reaper Range Finder! The key is to have the Exarch using the EML and the another Reaper manning the gun emplacement, so each squad of Reapers is pumping out 3, no-jink shots a turn. If you are gonna be facing a good deal of FMC's throw 2-3 units of Reapers (small ones will due) into Aspect Host alongside another unit of Aspect Warriors and those Hive Tyrants are gonna take some serious heat with the high balistic skill, low AP, and ignoring Jink. Remember you can opt to Intercept those suckers when they fly on as well. But if you dont want to, you can always put them in a Wave Serpent, walk them out and then blast away. Even if they take out your Icarus, multiple Exarch's with Eldar Missile Launchers will tear him up and the Reapers themselves are no slouch as far as far as snapshooting Skyfire options.

You can get  a great looking Eldar Aegis Defense line from Microart Studios of you are interested... this is a small section of mine



Another more extreme option is the Eldar Firestorm... FW no longer sells it, but they updated the rules in Imperial Armor 11: Doom of Mymeara and the thing annihilates air targets. It has an incredible number of shots and USR's that make it the premier anti-FMC unit for Eldar outside the Reapers. But I'd give those Reapers a shot.

As for getting an Autarch into your list... I've run an Autarch in literally every single game since 6th edition. I do not play without one. When not on a Jetbike I've found the best options to be Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Fire Dragons inside a Wave Serpent. I tool him up for combat (soulshrive) and give him a fusion gun and have him hunt key vehicles, then break off and go into combat. He meshes well with all the Jetbike options too. A tooled up Autarch with a Seer Council is probably the best all round option... but he can ride with some Spears if you are up for a challenge, or with a unit of Scatter Laser or Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes zipping around and staying out of trouble. Also its key to remember that he doesn't need to be on the board to get the Reserve manipulation. If you think he's gonna be any kind of serious trouble, keep him off the board, as he is fragile.

As for a mixed foot/mech/jetbike list, it super easy to run. Eldar infantry is so fast with Battle Focus... especially when spearheaded by Hawks and Spiders... two of the best units in the book. I run a mixed list in just about every game and find it energizes beautifully.

Give us a run down on units you have available, what you are facing and what you are interested in purchasing (if anything) and perhaps we can help a bit more.

Anyway, welcome back to the hobby. Its a great time to be into the game right now and the Eldar are rocking in the top-tier so enjoy! Share your thoughts I'm always happy to bounce ideas back and forth!

[dog_of_war]

I definitely second the inclusion of dark reapers. Their great AP does wonders at wounding his synapse creatures,which should be your primary targets. They are especially great against tyranid warriors, if you take starshot/EML as they'll insta-kill the multi-wound nids.

I cannot say enough about dire avengers. Bladestorm is phenomenal against monstrous creatures and if you include enough to take them in a shrine their single turn output has allowed me to take tervigons and trygons with ease. They'll also do well against gaunt hordes, so they are auto-include for me against tyranids.

If you take a warhost and get matchless agility, guardians with regular shuriken catapults can be equally effective. The matchless agility will help mitigate the shorter range of their catapults.

Welcome back to the hobby. It's great to see another footdar player out there.

[Straker]

Thanks for the responses guys! Yes, by arrival list I meant null deploy. My opponent was nice and only used one flyrant this game (that I put 0 wounds on), but in the future I may face more. I'd say I want to not auto-lose if two are being used while still having a balanced list to deal with corresponding hordes of grunts and foot-MCs. I'm also quite concerned about Mawlocs, but I'm not sure there's much to do there but hope for scatter. Eventually I'll be comfortable to go to events with all types of lists, but for the foreseeable future it's tyranid enemies until I can play faster games and not need to look everything up all the time.

I'm open to buying new units, the thing about formations is they encourage spamming which I usually don't like as much and of course don't have the models for. But, after trying to resist this first game, a simple CAD just won't compete. 

My one dire avenger squad this game did so well. I have a second, just not a third. I just purchased a third as the Dire Avenger shrine looks too good to pass up for footdar. Will definitely be trying to include that in most future games...

I have a lot of models, but not a lot of jetbikes of any kind or a wraithknight. The latter I prefer to avoid, as mentioned (along with other FW options). So, I used a squad of five reapers protected in a ruin near an objective in the corner of my deployment zone with infiltrating scorpions, and just got unlucky and made some bad decisions forgetting so many rules (flicker jump and hit and run on spiders, mandiblasters on scorpions, slow and purposeful on reapers, etc). But reapers really aren't that great at anti air, are they? They still need 6s to hit although they get to reroll, but if they aren't upgraded they then need 5s to wound. And EML skyfire is s7 ap4... Against a 3+ it doesn't seem that great given its point cost, even though the exarch gets to shoot it twice.

I'm far away from having all of the models for a warhost, but I think I prefer dire avengers anyway. Plus, it feels too limiting forcing the vaul support battery, war walkers, so many guardians, AND a crappy vyper unless you're playing 2k+ points.

I haven't looked into any fortifications, but for footdar this is probably a really good idea. Is it the Aegis defense line that has the intercept you mentioned? It looks super cool to boot!

[dog_of_war]

You just have to hit the flying monstrous creature enough to force grounding tests, you don't necessarily have to blow him out of the sky. Excessive shuriken or scatter laser fire should force enough hits to make him eventually become grounded, where units like your dark reapers can make short work of them.

If you want to kill him outright in the air, a crimson hunter would be the easiest answer.

If you're going the route of dire avengers, you really need to work towards full ten man squads. The output they can deliver is only fully realized when they hit the table at full strength.

Mawlocs/trygons are tough, but if you make a decent gun line castle, wherever they deep strike, you only has to weather their initial shooting. If you've castled properly, you should be able to shoot it to death in your next turn before it can charge you.

[Aurics Pride]

As someone who regularly uses an Alpha strike army (Drop Pod Ravenguard) leaving units in reserve can certainly help, I played a game against an Eldar player a little while ago who deployed all of his army on the board right from the start which allowed me to pick my targets. If he had left his Wraithknight and Warp Hunter off the board then I would have been seriously short of Targets and he would have been able to force me into comitting before knowing where his bigger units would be arriving.
With Footdar it is harder as although Eldar are Eldar they aren't really all that fast and Dire Avengers coming on Turn 3 are going to struggle to really do too much if they are having to footslog from their board edge.
Personally I would look at castling up with your cheap but squishy units around the outside (Bubble wrap!)
Strangely enough Eldar aren't really all that amazing at anti-air (probably one of their biggest weaknesses). Reapers and Warwalkers are probably the best units we have in the book for taking out Flyers/FMCs particularly with a bit of Psychic support (Guide all the way.) Crimson Hunters and Nightwings are however very good at engaging flying Targets, they are as you say a bit squishy though and a Flying Hive Tyrant will make a big mess of a Crimson Hunter if given even 1 shooting phase.

[Straker]

@dog_of_war grounding isn't all that great. It happens at the end of the shooting phase, and then it can swoop again next turn. So, your reapers never get to use their full BS against a flyrant.

@Aurics Pride at least an attach should make it very likely tour units come in when you want them to. I am thinking one should always be taken just to counter a list like yours effectively.

Completely agree about taking 30 dire avengers in a shrine. Here's how I'll likely run it 9/10 times:
2x 10 dire avengers
1x 10 dire avengers, exarch, power axe and simmershield.

I considered three naked squads but I like the flexibility of having one out in the open with the invul save. It saved quite a few guys in my recent game in the one unit I ran.

[dog_of_war]

If you are taking the three units definitely take them as a shrine. You can bring a cheap CAD with your autarch and some rangers (which are also good against MC) then add the shrine and some aspect hosts.

Sorry, forgot about when they take the grounding test. At least you force wounds on them when they hit the ground. 

[Cavalier]

A Voidshield Generator could help too. The battlements will keep guys up off of ground level as well to prevent the Mawlock/Trygon (whichever it is) from deepstriking you. I made mine out of a plastic wine glass and some random bits. The hill is just foam. Its a huge defensive asset... especially when combined with reserve manipulation.



But yeah an Aegis Defense Line + Icarus Lascannon + with a Reaper Exarch with fast shot can be very good too. You are right about the EML not having the proper AP to bypass armor. Didn't realize that (haven't gone up against flying hive tyrants with my reapers on hand). But yeah I love the Reapers and they'll mulch most Bug infantry as well.

Also the Avenger shrine is NASTY. Especially when you have it in a Warhost... its so damn fast and can shred just about anything with a toughness value.

But yeah, Reapers on an Aegis with an Icarus, Autarch with reserve manipulation some decent terrain would help too. A couple of multi-story ruins for each player especially if you are going up against just Tyranids with Mawlocks would be more than fair. Make sure you have some LOS blocking terrain too. At least 1 piece in each DZ is what most people try to rock these days.

[magenb]

Another option is the Imperial bunker, You can still take the anti-air cannons and a Void shield generator, plus a few other options. Heaps of fire points so reapers can laugh maniacally as they reap the battlefield. It is also $$ cheaper than the ADL from GW stores.

[Straker]

Thanks all for the replies! All the rules for fortifications are in the Stronghold Assault book right? Yet another book to buy lol. It'll take some time for my used copy from Amazon to arrive... But then I can look into which fortification I like the best; sounds like there are a few good options that should be heavily considered for footdar!

[Cavalier]

Yeah the Bastion is nice... I always try and stick my Reapers up in one when I can. You can also put an Escape Hatch on it so you can assault out of it later which is cool (not with the Reapers obviously lol).

[Straker]

So looking at bunkers and bastions... How do you guys make them Eldar? The official models are so imperial. Also, do you replace heavy boaters with shrunken cannons on the bastion? Is that legal?

Even still, you can't have the reapers embarked and use an icarus lascannon, leading me more towards the aegis defense line.

[Cavalier]

You pretty much have to scratch build them. But their are a number of 3rd party companies who make suitable matches as well.



http://www.miniaturescenery.com/ProductPage.asp?Code=ELVTWR1

I think this stuff looks really good. You could use easily say when embarked they are underneath the bation (elevator/webway portal to sub-level) if you want to play it as a straight-up bastion.

Also if you wanted to just get the regular bastion... honestly its just a battlefield asset. The Eldar captured it on the battlefield and are using it for the duration of the fight. Plus its great to add to your scenery collection. You could even stick an Eldar gun in there to say they captured the tower just to put the Eldar gun in there for AA purposes.

[Straker]

Yeah makes sense on building them. But as far as rules go, the Reapers can't be embarked and use the AA gun, so you either need to throw a squad of rangers or a second reaper squad up top to use it, no?

Seems like the ADL is the best bet if the AA gun is what I'm after.