40K Online
The Armies of 40k => Imperial Forces => Topic started by: Chico on May 13, 2007, 02:25:47 PM
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Now the question which comes to mind after giving some advice on other peoples lists, is that what is everyones stand point of using the IA Guard tanks in standard games?
Now myself and my gaming group have not problems with using any IA rules as are view point is ''If its looks good, wack it on the table''
i would like to know thought what is everyone elses view points on using IA? and i don't want a discussion on the Prices/Looks.
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I'm totally happy with the use of forgeworld stuff. Often makes a game interesting, not to mention I do own some forgeworld stuff myself. Generally IA stuff doesn't seem too overpowered to me. The points values seem very sensible for the most part and sometimes you may be shooting yourself in the foot taking something which isn't particularly brilliant.
Also if anyone had a serious serious problem with me having IA vehicles then I'm not sure they are really up for a fun game at all. I don't think I'd feel like I'd lost out in not playing them. I might feel a little angry after spending all that money though!
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I personally think you should just stick to what's in the Codex if you're going to bother sticking up an army list, as not many people here can comment on how good FW stuff is, and it's much easier to have a sort of common ground when discussing Lists.
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Superheavies, titans, and flyers really change the game, thus I would need permission. Anything else is fair game.
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Any single model from ForgeWorld that isn't a Super Heavy, Flyer or Gargantuan creature seems to be accepted locally. Short of infernus shells for Griffons, I can't think of anything overpowered or undercosted that falls into this category. So I take Salamanders, Exterminators, Destroyer Tank Hunters and the like in my all-comers lists and expect not to meet with any trouble. I still ask beforehand though, as a matter of courtesy.
Super Heavies, Flyers and Gargantuan creatures are in a whole different league, and I wouldn't expect to be allowed to use them in any old game. Consequentially I don't use any.
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Armoured Companies are full of them anyway.
Me I'm fine with the occasional Imperial Armour tank, though I find that they are not really necessary at times.
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Super Heavies, Flyers and Gargantuan creatures are in a whole different league, and I wouldn't expect to be allowed to use them in any old game. Consequentially I don't use any.
It's different here. We're used to seeing them in just about every game and thus they don't have the shock value many people expect them to have and are treated just like any other "hard to kill" unit. Flyers aren't as scary as many people make them out to be.
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Flyers are really just glorified skimmers anyways, so if you treat them as such you'll do fine. Considering the points you pay for a Flyer, it's almost too much of a disadvantage to go up against a list with AA mounted weapons.
Armoured Companies are full of them anyway.
If you're using more than 3 IA tanks in your armoured company, I'd daresay you're doing something wrong.
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i have to disagree with that statement... but let me make sure i'm thinking what you're thinking... if you mean something like baneblade, or some crazy variant other than a destryoer tank hunter, vanquisher, or exterminater, etc, then i agree.
however if you mean to say using the normal variants in an ac is a disadvantage/tactical mistake, i beg to differ tremendously. if they are used in the right role, they are perfectly fine if not a great advantage. i ALWAYS field a couple in my ac. and as a result, ive beaten people so baldy they REFUSE to play against those lists. if used badly, the variants are a hindrance... however to say they are such just because they are specail-made, is a mistake.
i own a baneblade and i honestly never expect to be allowed to field it. its just a really cool piece i got for uber cheap. however i think games workshop would be kicking themselves in the butt to keep this separation of forgeworld and basic codex. i agree that the f.w. stuff is usually pretty well balanced, as long as i know what it does when i'm about to face it. if gw put the f.w. stuff into codexes it would allow for MUCH more interesting games. and they would make a killing.
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Lemme rephrase myself. I didn't mean IA tanks in the form of the Heavy Support, I meant IA tanks by the Leman Russ variants. With the exception of say, Hydras, Executioners, Medusas, Manticores, the flyers and the Superheavies, the other IA tanks can be found as ordinary choices in the Armoured Company list.
Pardon me if I wasn't clear.
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Super Heavies, Flyers and Gargantuan creatures are in a whole different league, and I wouldn't expect to be allowed to use them in any old game. Consequentially I don't use any.
It's different here. We're used to seeing them in just about every game and thus they don't have the shock value many people expect them to have and are treated just like any other "hard to kill" unit. Flyers aren't as scary as many people make them out to be.
I wouldn't know how good or bad they are, as I've never seen them used in a game. I guess some of their "O noez! Unconventional!!1" stigma has gotten to me. I'd love for that kind of vehicle to be the norm around here.
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Well i don't see a problem using Flyers/Superheavys/Titans, so long as you give your opp a heads up before the game so they know what too expect.
I seen so many Superheavys/Titans used they lost there shock factor, but never not once seen anyone bother with Flyers.
Any single model from ForgeWorld that isn't a Super Heavy, Flyer or Gargantuan creature seems to be accepted locally. Short of infernus shells for Griffons, I can't think of anything overpowered or undercosted that falls into this category
Wow your the first person i met which as classed Infernus Shells as overpowered, sure they can be nice but even when i use both my Griffions armed with them they still under preform.
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Then count me as the second person you have met with the same ideals.
I dislike most Forgeworld stuff on a gameplay level. They are all nice and stuff but are either over priced or under performing, or completely useless unless your playing with something else from forgeworld like Fliers. Have had a look through the IA1 but would never use anything out of it, simply not to my taste.
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Wow your the first person i met which as classed Infernus Shells as overpowered, sure they can be nice but even when i use both my Griffions armed with them they still under preform.
Try hitting the same target twice, on jetpack troops, beasts/calvary, jetbikes etc. Falling back 6d6 is not funny.
Did you roll for leadership? Cos you're not supposed to. Fallback is automatic (but that doesn't count the unit as broken, IMPT.)
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And I make 3 ... Infernus shells are overpowered. I have seen them cause untold problems to hordes because it slows their advance to a crawl ... or even a reversal.. If it is first turn you could potentially lose 30 models that is too powerful in my mind especially since they are indirect and relatively cheap.
My eldar army has suffered exactly the example Talon Raven gave... well positioned small Hawks squad in my opponents deployment zone moved 30" in reverse... ended up close to an enemy tank and promptly fled off the table as couldn't rally (think it should have rallied automatically given that they were not "broken") still 30" of movement (plus the 15" in their own turn) seems pretty unbalanced.
I won the game well but that really irked me... the Griffon got hit very hard in the next turn... even the crater had craters....
Flyers are annoying as well but they can be dealt with (45" moving hawks would help :0) )
Other armour stuff I like; it does provide flavour especially to campaigns or large games.
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Heh wow, i never knew players really disliked Infernus Shells. I have never had one person in real life comment on them in a negitive fashion (Over then why bother with Griffions)
Now i know people don't like them i will stop using them...... heh no chance only makes want too take a 3rd in my games now ;).
Up untill this point the most comments i recieved abotu Griffions is why take them and not Bassies.
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I've recently started (last 6 months) playing with many different styles of Battlegroup. Last night I fielded a:
Vanquisher
Exterminator
Demolisher
2 Leman Russes
1 Leman Russ Annialator
Sentinel
Thunderbolt
5 Sisters of Battle
I lost against a large infantry heavy Chaos army (despite my Thunderbolt tearing in and destroying the objective in the climatic finale.
My army was too specialist. I had a Vanquisher (no enemy tanks to see), exterminator - no horde units..., and the 'bread and butter' of my list was a meagre 2 Russes and the exterminator.
I lost as I did what Germany did in WW2, produced many variants of one class of vehicle - and did not have more of the basic tanks.
In future I'll also use more standard Russ configuration tanks, and use specialist tanks in their respective roles - whereas in the aforemntioned battle I did not know what army I'd face and... took everything to cover any situation, and in doing so he had defeated my army from turn one.
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Flyers are annoying as well but they can be dealt with (45" moving hawks would help :0) )
I didn't know Hawks could assault flyers, though it would fit fluff.
Up untill this point the most comments i recieved abotu Griffions is why take them and not Bassies.
Cos they are cheaper, have a shorter minimum range. Still, strength and ap remain much to be desired.
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Up untill this point the most comments i received about Griffions is why take them and not Bassies.
Cos they are cheaper, have a shorter minimum range. Still, strength and ap remain much to be desired.
There is the reason why the Griffon was knocked out. People saw that it was Strength 6 AP 4, therefore it didn't kill marines therefore it was crap.
Or something.
The Griffon was awesome, it's minimum range was less than the Bassie, meaning you could hide it, and it could allways be hidden and bombing the enemy while the Griffon was safe from fire. The fact that you could almost have 2 Griffons for the price for a single maxed out bassie was awesome. 2 Pie plates for the price of one!
Anyway, the Imperial Armour books are awesome. Thunderer Siege Tanks, Exterminators, alternative ammunition, Titans, Imperial Navy - they all add a lot of awesome spice to game. The effectiveness of some of the tanks is debatable however but they shouldn't spoil the fun. It's highly entertaining.
However, the problem is that In most gaming clubs, not many people have Forge World stuff, so whipping out the Baneblade for a game is pretty cool and can add a lot of "ohhhs!" and "Ahhhs!" (Never mind the fact that it'll get hit with everysingle Anti-Tank weapon available). And whipping out the odd rare tank will make people go "Oohh!" as well. Mind you, that'll also attract every single anti-tank weapon in the game. Because if it costs 30 quid, it's got to be hardcore right?
But who cares. If you've got the disposable income - they're awesome. Most people say yes to them (I've never been knocked back) and they do make an entertaining game. Just don't rely on them to be game winners - and you'll have a blast.
Armoured Companies are full of them anyway.
Yeah, no.
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Yeah, Goyder summed up all I wanted to say about IA tanks. Though I've need seen a Griffon in action, it sounds like its worth it's price.
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in my area most people dont really have a problem with people grabbing stuff from the Imperial Armour resources. anything without structure or mass points is ok.
as a note, we often make a point of explaining what the thing is and in many cases bring alternatives just in case someone has a particular greivance. for instance, one dark angel player here uses a heavy bolter mortis dreadnought - but if the opponent doesnt want to face it then it can be easily swapped out for a plasma cannon dread instead.
the most important thing though, is that one has the rules to hand. and its always nice to allow your opponent to see them before the game so he knows what to expect.
as has been mentioned it is often found that many choices from there are overcosted, and generally that seems to be a concious decision by the designers in an attempt to either retain balance or display the rarity of any particular piece of equipment.
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But with something like flyers, while they aren't necessarily hard to beat, they add some more extra rules that you have to take into account. If you're not used to facing flyers, you might make some stupid mistake that you wouldn't have made if you were well versed in the flyer rules.
So it's not enough to just bring the rules with you.
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with something like tank variants - common for imperial guard and tau - its easy. yes, adding in things such as flyers does add more into teh mix, and thats why its important to explain such things to an opponent. just throwing a marauder bomber across the table without the enemy knowing what he's supposed to do it not fun for him/her, and thus defeats the object of the game.
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Regarding all IA stuff, I think they're perfectly fine to use, as long as you devote the proper Heavy Support or Fast Attack or whatever slots to them. What I don't like is when people field nonstandard armies that aren't based around the regular force lists; ie an Armored company. Those specialty armies, while very visually impressive and also cool, should only be used against another specialty army, not one based around the standard force organization list.
Let's say I am facing a 1500 pt army of like 9 or 10 leman russes or some russes and a couple superheavies. My army, about 60% of which is dogfaces with lasguns, cannot do a darn thing about those tanks, and what units I have that stand a chance vs all those tanks (my 3 tanks) are outnumbered 3 to 1 and get whomped in Rd 1. It'd be even worse for an Ork player or a Tyranid player who has to face that armored company, because their infantry units which are so nice at fighting enemy infantry are pretty much useless against all those tanks. That's why the 40K designers came up with the idea of balancing army lists by the force organization charts.
But from what I have seen of the forgeworld and IA stuff, the individual units seem pretty balanced to me; I just don't want to see a whole army of IA superheavies.
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as a note - the armoured company list is a games workshop chapter approved - and as such is more "legal" than a forgeworld.
the thing is that, so what if your lasguns can hurt a russ. if a marine player mounts up in rhinos or razorbakcs, and bundles in a bunch of predators and whirlwinds then those lasguns are still just as useless - but thats a codex army, and youll still have as much trouble!
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@Oink
That's absolutely true, and it mystifies me completely. GW has always been really concerned about keeping armylists balanced, so I am at a loss as to why they would introduce a street legal armylist that virtually cannot be beaten by opponents' standard balanced forces.
Your point about the space marines loading up on armor is a good one also, except even at their most armored up in a regular game you'd be facing three predators or dreadnoughts perhaps as heavy choices, maybe three landspeeders as fast attack and in some chapters three more dreadnoughts as elites. That's nowhere near the armor that could be thrown at you by an armored company, when pretty much everyone from your force commander on down (except fast attack) can be a Leman Russ!! And now with IA we're throwing Baneblades in there too!
My balanced infantry IG army could PROBABLY muster up enough autocannons, missile launchers, and heavy bolters to take on the SM "armored corps" from your example because I am shooting at AR 10-13 for the most part, and I am always backed up by two Russes and a Demolisher of my own.
I simply do not own enough lascannon in my collection to take on the entire IG armored corps and win. Also, I wouldn't have enough slots to field the lascannon support squads in as part of my command HQ. With two command HQ sections I could get four lascannon teams, for a total of twelve lascannons. Almost certainly not enough to take on all those tanks!
Run away!! :D
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Well, I'm not going to say that it's easy to beat an armoured company with a normal balanced list (it's not!), but it's only totally impossible if you stick to just playing "line up and kill them all" games. If you actually play missions from the rulebook those tanks have to move if they want to win, and moving greatly decreases their resilience. If they move up they are exposing their side armour, as well as reducing their firepower. Add to that the fact that normal troops can take advantage of cover and the fact that their own models will always block LOS to their other models and you've got a recipe for a somewhat fairer game.
I suppose the only exception to this would be seek and destroy, but even then you'll have the advantage because you'll probably have more scoring units, so you can just hide them and gain points for them.
I don't know about IG, but my normal eldar list can handle an armoured company without too many problems. Then again, my normal eldar list has three vibrocannons, Eldrad and his eldritch storms, and a bunch of EMLs, so perhaps it's not quite fair. :D
Besides, the baneblades are a red herring as far as armoured company effectivness. As the superheavy rules stand now it is almost always better to have a lot of smaller tanks, just because they're harder to damage and can put out more firepower, all for less points. And in games where it's actually reasonable to have baneblades you'll be playing with so many points that it isn't even that noticeable anyway.
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I play an AC list, i both win and lose with it. Its can dish out a huge amount of damage.. but can take very little itself before huge drawbacks happen.. i had a game where i lost all 4 of my LRBT's in a single turn just leaving me with Chimeras and Griffions.
Also just because you can't beat a said army with another army type, doesn't make the first army overpowered. It just means certain army's will always find certain armies always tough to beat.
Same way as a IG force will find a Tau Gun Line a pain in the arse too deal with.
Also AC's army's tend to lose most missions, even Cleanse can be challenging at best.