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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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2000p vs Space Marines
« on: May 21, 2015, 05:48:07 PM »
This is a list I'm considering playing with against Space Marines:

CAD 1474p:

HQ 190p
Farseer w. Jetbike, Spear (going with Windriders)
Spiritseer (going with Wraithguards)

Troops 434p
3 Windriders w. 2 SL:s
3 Windriders w. 2 SL:s
3 Windriders w. 2 SL:s
9 Guardians
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Elites 350p
5 Wraithguards w. D-scythes
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Fast Attack 55p
1 Vyper w. SC, Shurican

Heavy Support 150p
1 Fire Pirsm w. Fields, Stones

Lord of War 295p
1 Wraithknight


Formation - Aspect Host 528p:

6 Spiders w. Exarch
6 Spiders w. Exarch
10 Avengers w. Exarch
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Total 2002p (we allow a +/- 5 points deviation)
-----

What I'm curious about is if you think I should get rid of the Spiritseer and get a second Vyper (and a 10th Guardian) instead for a total of 1996 points.
I like the idea of the extra psychic powers, but my concern is basically whether or not it's actually better than that extra firepower that goes on an additional Vyper.
What are you thoughts?
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 06:25:28 PM »
Huuum i love vyper so i would not be impartial in this situation.
First of all if you are fielding guardian defender your minimum unit is a ten man squad. May i ask why you decided to field gardians? If it's to have additional troop s for the Cad to be legal you don't need it. You can take one extra hq choice per detachement compare to the minimum legal need. Wich mean 1 hq 2 troops you can tale one morehq choice and for 2 hq 4 troops you can take a 3 hq etc.

I don't know what your collection is but, if possible, i would advise dropping the guardian and there serpent or the fire prisme (i would prefer to keep it as his various shot really are intresting to have), and take a wraithlord insted. This would allow you to field the wraithost formation wich will make your wraithguards, knight and lord having a bigger effective range. I would load lut the wraithlord with starcanon and ghost sword, pretty deadly combination vs space marine if you are dropping the sserpen, but if you drop the fire prims you better take a brightlance rather. As you will surely need this lance shot ... or not i'm stupid you have wraithknight and wraithguards that can deal with heavy tanks, so same load out as just stated.
That's one of the change i would do and of course get a tenth dude in your guardian squad if you keep them.

For the vyper idea. If you don't have a wraithlord that can be a good way to get some good firepower instead of the spirit seer wich support roles really limit in his ability i think. So if you were to take him out i thinking taking one more guardian  and one more vyper is a valid bet (wich i would do if you don't take the wraithost), you will want to keep them away from the marines gun range as much as possible, because they can dammage you with there bolter just by he sheer power of dice. So to do this i would invest some point into starcanon on both, giving you the additional range needed to stay safe, and if they ever get to close or get cornered move at the limit range of the shurican and any unit of 5/6 could be wiped out (very lucky scenario) in a turn (assuming you guide your vyper).

And I think that over all it's a pretty good list,if ylu can apply one of the just stated change i guess it would make it even stronger but well that's all theory.

Feeling?
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 03:57:05 AM »
1) I took a unit of Guardians because they are cheaper than Avengers. It's perfectly viable to get 7 Avengers for just about the same cost as 10 Guardians. I might actually do that. But you were wondering why I went with so many Troop choices? Because they will have the Objective Secured. The 10 Avengers with the Exarch will not have that rule, since they are part of a formation and not the CAD, and I imagine 3 units of Jetbikes will be insufficient.
2) A Wraith host requires 3 units of Wraithguards/Wraithblades to be legal, which doesn't fit into this list points-wise.
3) A Wraithlord is slow on the move. A Wave Serpent has roughly the same amount of fire power, but on a much faster platform. The transport capacity is also welcome.

:)

"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 04:19:46 AM »
My bad i had forgotten the 3 squad things ><
Objectif secure, yeah i had forgotten about this. Hum then it make sens. I always forget about this Objectif secure things.
Ok for the wraithlord that his main problem right know compare to all the other unit we hhae, he can't keep up that would have been great if we could have had something to our boost him up in speed but neverminded that not the discution here.

Huum well then it's all about what you want to do as i just got all my idea cut under my feet by sheer logic...
The vyper will be good change i think at least.
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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 04:38:31 AM »
ref spirit seer vs viper + guardian, I think it would improve the list -the seer's wraithight rule is wasted on d-scythes, and spirit seer is not an optimum way of getting extra WC for your farseer to spend. Plus as mentioned you need a 10th guardian to make the list legal.

Another tweak I would suggest would be to re-organise the windriders into 1 squad of 6 (all SL), and 1 naked squad of 3. This gives you a better bodyguard for your warlord, a very good target unit for guide/prescience, and kits the units out for more specialised roles rather than having 3 general purpose units. You'd loose 1 Obsec unit, but I think the sacrifice is worth it.

One concern I have with the list vs SMurfs is that you are very reliant on your WK to threaten AV13+. I would prefer some redundancy in there at 2k points (which would probably be either bright lances on your serpents, or some swooping hawks instead of the avengers). If you can't/won't do that, I'd suggest at as a minimum giving the WK shield & sword to maximise his threat & survivability.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 05:01:56 AM »
Solid advice, Volatilegaz! Thanks!

About the lack of anti-AV: I know my opponent very well, and he has a way of favoring infantry over AV.
This is why I have so little that can deal with it. :)
Recently, however, he has indeed expressed a greater interest in vehicles, so it may very well be a mistake to assume he will run the same-old list.
It is luckily easy enough to swap out a few guns here and there, though.

The list now looks like this (notice that I swapped the 9-man strong, illegal Guardian unit for a 7-man strong Avenger unit instead):

CAD 1469p:

HQ 120p
Farseer w. Jetbike, Spear (going with Windriders)

Troops 444p
6 Windriders w. 6 SL:s (joined by the Farseer)
3 Windriders
7 Avengers
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Elites 350p
5 Wraithguards w. D-scythes
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Fast Attack 110p
2 Vypers w. SC:s, Shuricans

Heavy Support 150p
1 Fire Pirsm w. Fields, Stones

Lord of War 295p
1 Wraithknight


Formation - Aspect Host 528p:

6 Spiders w. Exarch
6 Spiders w. Exarch
10 Avengers w. Exarch
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Total 1997p (we allow a +/- 5 points deviation)
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 05:49:22 AM »
I agree with what volatilegaz suggested and the revamped list seemsfine to me i would suggest one things thought, do you know the type of terrain you are playing on? Because if it's  a heavy cover type of terrain i would swap the holofield on the prism for ghost walk matrice,the point cost is the same and will allow you to get the some reliable cover save to protect your tank. That's not as reliable as a invulsave but it often help nnt having to take all those dangerous terrain test to get into a good firing spot. That's just personal taste here, and I only played space marines once and i don't recall them having much ignore cover stuff.
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Offline Sarenyon

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2015, 07:18:00 AM »
I think it would be a fun list.  However,what are you doing for anti air?  I think the 6 SL's guided will do a number on Air, but you really have nothing else.  Does your potential opponent use Talons or Ravens?  That could give you a problem.

Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2015, 07:56:42 AM »
My mates and I don't really use Flyers.
Used to be we had a house rule that didn't allow Flyers at all, but we have since done away with it.
We still don't use Flyers, but it's more of a de facto thing now, than an actual agreement.
In other words, I seriously doubt my opponent will field Flyers, but if he does, I will not be equipped to deal with it using this list.
I'm taking the risk. :)
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2015, 08:35:22 AM »
Yeah, I like this list.

One suggestion from left field...
If you are expecting to face troop-heavy space marines, there is a lot to be said for taking dark reapers. They are insultingly effective at killing foot-slogging or biker smurfs.

A static unit like that doesn't suit the rest of your army at all, and if your opponent favours drop pods or DSing termites then you might be asking for trouble. But still worth a thought. Reapers really are excellent against power armour.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2015, 08:55:32 AM »
I love Reapers myself; the problem is that my opponent is an adept at killing them quickly.
We're talking about two Thunderfire cannons and a Whirlwind tank. Additionally, he likes to drop pod in Sternguards right in front of my most precious unit. The Reapers are too deadly for him to leave them be, and his anti-infantry capabilities are outstanding.

However, the list I've shown you so far is not going to be my next list, but the list after that.
I'm playing a game tomorrow versus the same opponent, and that list does actually include Reapers. 8 of them, with an Exarch. I will pool a considerable amount of resources into making this squad both sustainable and even more formidable. 2 Farseers will join the Reapers, one rolling on the Divination table for the Perfect Timing power, and the other will try his luck on our own Runes of Fate table, hoping to get Fortune.
It's quite risky, depending on RNG like that, but if it works, it will be a right royal pain for him. Reapers that ignore cover and have re-rollable saves? Yeah, he's going to have to focus on thinning that unit down a bit. Meanwhile the rest of the army looks a lot like the one you've seen (remove the Wraithguards and replace them with Reapers and you get a general idea of what it looks like). The Wraithknight, for instance, will certainly put pressure on him.

Still, I'm guessing I've got all of my eggs in one basket. Even with re-rolls my Reapers won't be able to take the beating from his artillery for long. He may put his Sternguards on my Wraithknight (using their one-use meltas) instead of the Reapers, but I'm afraid that between his Scouts, Thunderfire cannons and Whirlwind my Reapers will be quite managable.
Either way, I want to try it out. If I can take out some of his artillery quickly and have the Sternguards shoot at something else, maybe it will work (provided I roll the powers I need).
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2015, 10:00:27 AM »
I liked the guardians better than the dire avengers. 10 guardians gives you 6 more shots and against marines you really need the weight of dice to take them down. 12 is even better, I normally take a full ws of guardians, either 12 or 11 + a platform.

Here's what I think you should do:
drop avengers from cad
add 12-man guardian unit
drop the singing spear off the farseer (you shouldn't be that close if you are rolling with the scatter bikes)
drop the holofields off all tanks (you should be able to find 5+ cover, if you can't you aren't playing with enough terrain)
drop a single dire avenger from the formation
pick up a warlock windrider for your scatter bike squad. You have a lot of points invested in that unit and you do not want it jinking so you might as well give it conceal for what should be easy 3+ cover saves (put them behind your wave serpents if you have to)
I would also arm the wraithknight with suncannon and scattershield. His triple blast that wounds marines on 2s and doesn't allow them(even termies) to take armour saves is really fantastic, especially when guided. Don't forget about the scattershield's blind ability!
For the farseer roll on each discipline and plan to guide, prescience and psychic shriek (all great useful powers) but obvs keep any really good spells. and roll twice on fate if you get eldritch storm.

Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2015, 04:59:34 PM »
Happy to report that today's game went really well.
Technically, though, I lost, because by the end of round 4, my opponent was 1 victory point ahead of me, and we had to cancel the game because it had taken too long and he had somewhere else he needed to be.
However, if the game had lasted the intended 5 rounds, I would most likely have won because I had almost tabled him by then.
I could have finished off his Warlord for an easy VP, evening the score, and then he'd have 4 models left on the table (which I would be able to kill with ease). XD
There are very few Tactical Objectives that would not let me score at least one if not a few extra VPs, giving me the win and the utter annihilation of his army, which would have been lovely.
Really unfortunate that he had to leave! One more turn is all I'd have needed! :)
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2015, 06:59:37 PM »
Maybe it was a strategic retreat you don't know ^^Congrat non the less for having fun ;) might not be the same in a few week with the rumors about there updated codex. Could you try to put up a battle report so we can know what you did? I kinda what to have as many experienced as possible to learn from.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 07:01:41 PM by Grizzlykin »
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Offline magenb

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2015, 06:46:59 PM »
Your Wraithbomb is very expensive. If you are not going to see Land Raiders or equivalent, I would swap them out for Firedragons, If you are using them in a tank hunter role.

While 2 vypers are better than one, both will be eaten the moment they are in bolter fire range. I would be more inclind to take war walkers for the minor point difference.

I'm not a fan of the Fire prism, it is very expensive for a single shot. Dark Reapers are nasty against power armour and will give you some volume :)


Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 05:20:10 AM »
I'm giving the Wraithguard d-scythes - they won't be hunting AV, but clearing troops. :)
I never liked Fire Dragons - you pop one vehicle, and then they die.
If I need to hunt AV12+ I use Bright lances. :)

Vypers work for me, because I can shoot from 36" range, meaning bolters won't reach me, and then there's always target saturation. :)
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline Irisado

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2015, 02:48:25 PM »
What you're saying about Fire Dragons is open to debate.  There's an old topic on this here if you're interested.  It's for fifth edition, but the concepts are similar.
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Offline magenb

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2015, 06:07:23 PM »
Vypers work for me, because I can shoot from 36" range, meaning bolters won't reach me, and then there's always target saturation. :)

War Walker work much better for this given their ability to jump out shoot and jump back behind something and twice the shots at the same range. If you drop both Vypers and the Fire Prism you can take 2 WW with 2 x SC and 5 Dark reapers, should put you at 2002 points.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2015, 07:59:44 PM »
However, if the game had lasted the intended 5 rounds, I would most likely have won because I had almost tabled him by then.
I could have finished off his Warlord for an easy VP, evening the score, and then he'd have 4 models left on the table (which I would be able to kill with ease).

There are very few Tactical Objectives that would not let me score at least one if not a few extra VPs, giving me the win and the utter annihilation of his army, which would have been lovely.

Were you playing Maelstrom missions, I take it? How much of your own army was left? You mentioned he only had 4 models... do you have a ballpark of how many points you both had left over? I'm just curious, your build is mostly in tune with what I'm seeing as one of the stronger builds from the Eldar codex.

Do you know which Chapter Tactics your opponent was using? Was he using many bikes?

Thanks!

Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p vs Space Marines
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 03:32:37 PM »
Yeah, we played Maelstrom missions. I had about 45% of the point cost of my army left. He was down to 13%.
If you want to count models, I had my Wraithknight (all 6 wounds left), 10 Reapers, 1 Wave Serpent, my warlord (a farseer), 3 Jetbikes, and I believe a few Avengers left.
He had 2 tactical marines, his warlord (Kor'Sarro Khan) and a Land Speeder left.

Since my opponent was playing with Kor'Sarro Khan, he did use a few bikes (3 attack bikes and 12 regular bikes + a mounted Kor'Sarro Khan). It also means he used the White Scars chapter tactics. :)

Also, the list I posted before wasn't the list I used for that battle. It's for a future battle. :)
The list I used is very similar, however (in case you want to see it):

CAD 1487p:

HQ 230p
Farseer w. Jetbike (going with Windriders)
Farseer w. Jetbike (going with Windriders)

Troops 702p
3 Windriders w. 3 SL:s (joined by a Farseer)
3 Windriders w. 3 SL:s (joined by a Farseer)
10 Avengers
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields
10 Avengers
+ Serpent w. SC:s, Shurican, Fields

Fast Attack 110p
Vyper w. SC, Shurican
Vyper w. SC, Shurican

Heavy Support 150p
1 Fire Pirsm w. Fields, Stones

Lord of War 295p
1 Wraithknight w. Heavy Wraithcannons


Formation - Aspect Host 513p:

6 Spiders w. Exarch
6 Spiders w. Exarch
10 Reapers w. Exarch

Total 2000p (we allow a +/- 5 points deviation)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 03:34:36 PM by Iluvhir Strafermeyer »
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

 


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