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The Armies of 40k => Space Marines => Topic started by: Totally Not a Virgin on January 11, 2009, 05:13:12 AM

Title: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Totally Not a Virgin on January 11, 2009, 05:13:12 AM
(https://www.40konline.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi473.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr96%2FmatttotheB%2FNewCodex.jpg&hash=5eba54c98fe0020463883f02bff15413a81fcc47)
nuff said
if they write a new one, i would like to see :
chaplain dreadnought
death company terminators
any more suggestions?
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr. Dashington on January 11, 2009, 05:44:47 AM
Why a Chaplain Dreadnought?

I'm not a BA player, but your WD codex seemed fine to me..
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: muzzyman1981 on January 11, 2009, 06:53:48 AM
I doubt Death Company Terminators, because if I remember my Blood Angel fluff correctly...Death Company members are basically bezerkers that are expected to die, why would they get very rare and precious Terminator armor?

Just my opinion...
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: SeriousCallersOnly on January 11, 2009, 07:35:28 AM
I thought that the BA codex was pretty well balanced actually, and a lot less random than the previous ruleset. The only thing it suffers from really, like the DA codex, is unfavourable comparisons to the vanilla SM codex.

And no, DC termies will never happen. Why would a DC member want heavy armour?
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Benis on January 11, 2009, 07:49:36 AM
Yeah, the only things lacking is an update to the current Space Marine wargear rules, the same goes for Dark Angels. It would be nice if they actually did re-visit the codex: Angels of Death, like Jervis wanted, and gave an update to Dark Angels wargear section whilst at the same time giving Blood Angels a more finished feel to their list.

EDIT: things like Death Company Terminators and Chaplain Dreadnoughts are just childlike wish-thinking without support from the background, although access to some of the new entries in the codex: Space Marines might be fitting.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Lorizael on January 11, 2009, 09:22:59 AM
The current BA codex is really good, I enjoy using it.
It just needs to be updated to current SM wargear is all.

DC Terminators? Not going to happen... And I'm glad.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: The Voivod on January 11, 2009, 09:38:04 AM
I think we'll need patients.
I do agree the new codex is fine concerning balance.
I just think it's boring.
Many disagree though.

My BA are collecting dust untill a new codex arrives.
I'm thinking about playing them as vannilla untill then, but can't bring myself to buying the codex just yet.
Just don't hold you breath, the new codex seems way of
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Totally Not a Virgin on January 11, 2009, 10:10:27 AM
I doubt Death Company Terminators, because if I remember my Blood Angel fluff correctly...Death Company members are basically bezerkers that are expected to die, why would they get very rare and precious Terminator armor?

Just my opinion...

same reason death company dreadnoughts get dreadnoughts i guess
i just think they need something different, something new

and i think a chapy dread would be something great to write in fluff wise, the chapter not wanting the mortally wounded chaplains wisdom and experience to go to waste, or at least just one special character with a small backstory i guess

and its not child like wishfull thinking it's male like wishful thinking  ;)

also i dont like the fact the codex is in 2 editions of white dwarf, its the biggest dishounor ever, give me more fluff, more equipment and what i would like to see due to the assualt nature of blood angels is something like an extra d3 attacks plus the bonus for charging when they attack first or something else equally worthwhile
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr. Dashington on January 11, 2009, 10:36:40 AM
Don't DC Dreadnoughts go insane after they are put in?  If a BA Termi went insane they would probably take his termi armour away from him so as not to lose it, or at least I would have thought.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: HORDE on January 11, 2009, 10:42:23 AM
also i dont like the fact the codex is in 2 editions of white dwarf, its the biggest dishounor ever, give me more fluff, more equipment and what i would like to see due to the assualt nature of blood angels is something like an extra d3 attacks plus the bonus for charging when they attack first or something else equally worthwhile

everyone getting an extra d3 attacks?? you cannot be serious
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: muzzyman1981 on January 11, 2009, 10:50:52 AM

also i dont like the fact the codex is in 2 editions of white dwarf, its the biggest dishounor ever, give me more fluff, more equipment and what i would like to see due to the assualt nature of blood angels is something like an extra d3 attacks plus the bonus for charging when they attack first or something else equally worthwhile

So would the Space Wolves, Tyranids, Orks, etc etc also get this?  It's unfeasable.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Benis on January 11, 2009, 02:25:34 PM
same reason death company dreadnoughts get dreadnoughts i guess
i just think they need something different, something new

Nope, Death Company Dreadnoughts are regular Dreadnoughts that has given in to the Black Rage, removing the Marine would kill him and be a great dishonour.

and i think a chapy dread would be something great to write in fluff wise, the chapter not wanting the mortally wounded chaplains wisdom and experience to go to waste, or at least just one special character with a small backstory i guess

Why would this be more fitting for Blood Angels than other chapters? Now, Iron Hands I could imagine getting a Special Character Dreadnought but Blood Angels who already has their Furioso pattern and Death Company upgrade... A Blood Angels Chaplain is as likely to succumb to Black Rage as any other Dreadnought and would in turn loose any wisdom or experience he so far had gathered.

also i dont like the fact the codex is in 2 editions of white dwarf, its the biggest dishounor ever, give me more fluff, more equipment...

Well there is the PDF version you can download. More fluff? Why not read the old codices (there are two), I doubt there will be much new fluff considering how similar the codex: Dark Angels is to codex: Angels of Death. more equipment is trickier; do you mean more as in along the lines of Codex: Space Marines or are you simply wanting Blood Angels stuff so they can pewn other chapters?

...and what i would like to see due to the assualt nature of blood angels is something like an extra d3 attacks plus the bonus for charging when they attack first or something else equally worthwhile

Which, like mentioned by several others, is just silly. The Furious Charge rule of the previous edition was also silly so good that they took that away. Blood Angels can field Assault Marines as troops and have other powerful assault units which clearly shows their nature. That's one of the things I like about Blood Angels: they are fearsome in assaults but still have balance within their list just like I imagine the sons of Sanguinius should be.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Lorizael on January 11, 2009, 04:18:11 PM
A chapter would not risk the loss of a suit of terminator armour by letting a suicidal marine wear it.
The DC are expected to die in battle; the loss of power armour is bad enough, the loss of terminator armour to the chapter would be huge.
Normally a marine goes into the black rage after being interred within a Dreadnought. A marine that had already succumbed to the black rage would not be put into a dread; instead they would be locked away in the tower of Amero.

As for a codex in 2 parts in WD: well it's better than not having a codex update at all. The BA are better updated than the Wolves or Templars, be thankful for that.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Totally Not a Virgin on January 12, 2009, 12:18:00 PM
i have to lol at you people sometimes, instead of "lol that would be cool" or something simular your all like "wah,wah,wah (insert fluff that means very little if not nothing)(further ranting with multiple quotes disected with a scalpel) and a statement of fact that most of you are probably still virgins

topic locked, continue to cry about it  ;D
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on January 12, 2009, 12:37:01 PM
No one is crying about your ideas, they are genuinely bad.  No sane person wants a return to the sliced cheese that was the 3rd edition Blood Angels Codex. 

Flame-baiting like this is not tolerated, nor are spam threads like this.

The lock feature exists to close threads that have served their purpose or are not meant to be posted in, not to shut the door in the face of other members and yell "neener neener!"  Do not abuse it again.

40k Online Rules and Netiquette (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=141438.0msg1713895#msg1713895)
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Totally Not a Virgin on January 12, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
i am gay

40k Online Rules and Netiquette (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=141438.0msg1713895#msg1713895)

oh, cheap jokes are the greatest

Oh yes, yes they are.  -Mr.Peanut
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: HORDE on January 12, 2009, 01:09:36 PM
yes, because with the rate of teenage pregancy in the UK, losing your virginity has maintained its status as a mark of maturity.
[/sarcasm]

most people here play multiple armies and so can look at proposed rules changes with regards to balance. there's no ppoint in playing the game if one player wins by virtue of his army selection. or, maybe you think that'd be fine.


[EDIT] Mr. Peanut - BURN!!!!!!11!!one!
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Guildmage Aech on January 12, 2009, 01:11:17 PM
Quote
instead of "lol that would be cool" or something simular your all like "wah,wah,wah (insert fluff that means very little if not nothing)

But your ideas aren't cool, and so-one is going to pretend that they are. Lets face facts, dinosaurs with laser eyes would make more sense to add to the game than anything you've thought up.

Advice, don't be rude to the moderators or they'll make life hard for you. Don't be rude to other people else the moderators will again, make life hard for you. After all, the only person here is going to be upset if you get banned will be you.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on January 12, 2009, 01:21:00 PM
Personally, I don't want much done with the Blood Angels Codex.  It works very, very well, it just needs a few tweaks here and there (I still don't understand the "free" Rhino for Assault Squads without jump packs, the points really don't make sense, especially for a full-size squad). 

I would much rather have the last two Codexes toned-down.  If the game really must continue that way, Blood Angels may as well be given the "updates" such as insane Storm Shields and free stuff.  I'd feel guilty about using Blood Angels, though, until every other Codex in the game was updated to be on par with them. 
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: YuenglingDragon on January 12, 2009, 01:26:12 PM
(I still don't understand the "free" Rhino for Assault Squads without jump packs, the points really don't make sense, especially for a full-size squad).
Saturation is the only thing I can think of.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Raktra (So long, I guess) on January 12, 2009, 01:36:06 PM
i have to lol at you people sometimes, instead of "lol that would be cool" or something simular your all like "wah,wah,wah (insert fluff that means very little if not nothing)(further ranting with multiple quotes disected with a scalpel)
Coming from a long (long long) time Blood Angel, let me just put my word in for a moment.

The Blood Angels codex, as has been stated, is fine. We are missing minor things, such as the boosted WS for captains and the fancy wargear rules. We still have proper combat Chaplains (nothing like a Templar chaplain, but who cares?), our Vanguard equivalent is cheaper and much more flexible, and our special characters are great (barring Tycho). The one thing I would ask for would be the Land Raider Redeemer, as it is a big Baal Predator, but that is it.

Don't be so rude in future. The Mods have powers.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: M. Gobrot Esq. on January 12, 2009, 03:39:44 PM
(I still don't understand the "free" Rhino for Assault Squads without jump packs, the points really don't make sense, especially for a full-size squad).
Saturation is the only thing I can think of.

I am sorry not sure I understood what you meant by saturation. Could you explain this thought out a bit more.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Qui-Gon Jinn on January 12, 2009, 03:43:01 PM
Saturation is the mindset of puting a LOT of armor on the table, mostly by taking cheap transports.
This is to eliminate most small arms fire, which can normally harm infantry, because it cannot damage the front armor of whatever it is facing.

Also, this is normally done when Heavy Support tanks are taken, or a mechanized list is taken. This is to force the opponent to decide where to place his anti-tank power, and against what to fire upon. This way, if he does not shoot the big gun toting tank, then it will be shooting. Consequentially, if he does not shoot the transports, he will find high quality combat troops in his line destroying his Objective Scoring Troops.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on January 12, 2009, 04:14:22 PM
It's still strange because the effective cost of the Rhino is roughly 40 to 90 points depending on squad size (assuming the BA cost and not the ridiculous new cost of Assault Marines).  The bonus to this is that it's the way to get Troops with two CCWs that don't die when they hit trees, but at the additional cost of no special weapon upgrades beyond Plasma Pistols (Blood Angels have apparently forgotten how to use Flamers like Ultramarines have). 

The idea of this Codex being a "great dishonor" is to me absurd, but a few things in it are downright wonky.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: YuenglingDragon on January 12, 2009, 04:21:35 PM
It's still strange because the effective cost of the Rhino is roughly 40 to 90 points depending on squad size (assuming the BA cost and not the non-ridiculous new cost of Assault Marines).
Meh.  If I was running a full or nearly full squad I might do it to purely mech my forces.  But I'm not a BA player.  I just kill 'em.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Guildmage Aech on January 12, 2009, 04:32:06 PM
The idea of this Codex being a "great dishonor" is to me absurd, but a few things in it are downright wonky.

One imagines it could be difficult to seperate a Blood Angel from his chainsword...
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Locarno on January 14, 2009, 10:39:28 AM
The list works well, and with assault marines as troops it's very unique. With the exception of Eldar (guardian jetbikes) no-one can hold a candle to the Blood Angels for speed.

The .pdf isn't the be-all and end-all; there will (supposedly) be a proper codex at some point, but since the Blood Angels codex was so adrift and no miniatures were released, it seems fair enough.

The main downsides, as noted, are the wargear and the price of assault marines. Storm shields, digital weapons, et al, are nice tricks but it's the core units which suffer, especially the assault marines, who got a ridiculous discount in the new codex.

That said, the Veteran Assault Squad are, as noted so much cheaper than Vanguard it's not funny, the Death Company are unutterably nails (as ever) and the Blood Angels special characters kick codex tail. This is Dante. Yes, those special rules do what you thought they said. Nice, eh?

Even the regular characters are nice - ok, no relic blade, but paired lightning claws and a combiweapon is a nice trick, and apparently every Company Captain is as good a strategist as the Blue-Armoured Boys Blue-Eyed Boy, Sicarius, getting Rites of Battle instead of a normally useless WS upgrade that only matters when duelling with generals rather than squads..

It'll be interesting to see what they eventually do with them. One big question would be should the Death Company be made an option - as in really an option, not 'you've paid for them but don't have to use them' - as this gets in the way of anyone wanting to use the codex to produce an assault army that isn't genetically psychotic (say, someone's 8th company?).

Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on January 14, 2009, 10:56:53 AM
As a note, I don't understand the assessment of the Veteran Assault Squad being so much cheaper than Vanguard.  Adding the cost of Jump Packs to the Vanguard, the squad is 25 points more than the Veteran Assault Squad, but that ignores the free Power Weapon that the Sergeant gets, so what you're left with is an insignificant price to pay for Heroic Intervention.  Oh, and Vanguard an equip more models than Blood Angels, (this makes sense, Blood Angels are a new chapter and having exotic CC weapons wouldn't make sense because close combat is foreign to them- oh wait) so include that in the "higher" cost of Vanguard.  The only edge that the VAS has is a roughly 5 point discount and many more options for shooting weapons.

The discount, I suppose, comes from one Death Company member that truly is free at this point?
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Guildmage Aech on January 14, 2009, 02:10:25 PM
The only edge that the VAS has is a roughly 5 point discount and many more options for shooting weapons.

The fact they're both similarly priced is undoubtly the reason why neither are seen very often; they're both overpriced. And both suffer from the fact that more cheaper assault marines generally work out better in the law of averages (not to mention that the BA assault marines have the 'hold objectives' badge that their codex counterparts fogot to wear).

Quote from: Locarno
it's the core units which suffer, especially the assault marines, who got a ridiculous discount in the new codex.

Non-scoring assault marines with a ridiclous discount let us remember, meaning that if you actually want an objective for yourself you have to use those points to you saved to buy a troop unit to run over and put a flag on whatever it is while the assault marines sit about their oh-so-fast-attack thumbs.

Quote
One big question would be should the Death Company be made an option - as in really an option, not 'you've paid for them but don't have to use them' - as this gets in the way of anyone wanting to use the codex to produce an assault army that isn't genetically psychotic (say, someone's 8th company?).

Paint one death company guy as an apothacary and pretend its a command squad? :)
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: YuenglingDragon on January 14, 2009, 03:29:04 PM
There are two ways to win an objective game, Hymirl.  You can take objectives or make your opponent unwilling or unable to take them.  Vanguard can do the latter better, IMO, because of their access to various awesome.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on January 14, 2009, 04:39:39 PM
By that logic, nothing that isn't Troops is worth it. 

Basic Assault Marines were well worth the old Codex cost yet VAS get more attacks and more gear for the same price, so I definitely wouldn't call them or Vanguard overcosted (Vanguard are only pointless due to the spam-worthy low cost of new Assault Marines- Assault Marines that now get a Sergeant that can take things only Elites are allowed to take in BA/DA). 
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: strikeforce_comander on January 14, 2009, 04:52:47 PM
The only changes that I can think of for the BA Codex would be to...
1-Add Relic blades for any unit that can take Power weapons(Vet Sgt's, HQ's, ect.)
2-Increase the Drop Pods BS to that of any other vehicle we can use.

But, the biggest thing I would want is a new FAQ...
1-Certain things like Hunter-killer missiles, hurricane bolters, typoon missile launchers, ect. are not explained. I would like to see that put into an FAQ rather than have
    to ask around.
2-Also, although we've come to a conclusion to it on these forums, I'd perfer it if GW would put in wheather or not the VAS can deep strike (we concluded that they
   can). That way, I don't have to explain it every time I play a pick-up game.
3-The stats for the Furioso Dreadnought are slightly different between its entry in the front of the codex, and the rest of the codex for its S. Besides that it is not in
   the reference sheet.
4-Lastly, I find it odd how they put in that the DC Dread gets an extra D3 CC A's, but not the reg DC marines. They're both afflicted by the same Black Rage aren't they?

Other than that, I can't really complain about a free codex too much.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on January 14, 2009, 05:19:09 PM
Anything in the Codex that has or can get a Jump Pack is subject to the rules on page 52.  Point the people who ask to the bottom of the paragraph under MOVEMENT.

The Dreadnaught is different because he has the Black Range and is super-pissed by being crippled and locked inside sarcophagus.  Rending and the other things wouldn't make much of any difference for something that has two Dreadnaught CCWs.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Guildmage Aech on January 14, 2009, 06:16:39 PM
There are two ways to win an objective game, Hymirl.  You can take objectives or make your opponent unwilling or unable to take them.  Vanguard can do the latter better, IMO, because of their access to various awesome.

I live in eternal fear of their ability to cost twice as much as a normal space marine and die just as easily... ;)

Quote from: Mr.Peanut
By that logic, nothing that isn't Troops is worth it.

Thats a considerable exageration of my point. It is however worth noting that being a scoring unit is an advantage that some other units don't have, its not one that renders all other unit choices pointless anymore than one unit being able to take anti-tank guns means that no-one else has to.

In responce to both of you, it goes without saying that milage will vary. Some people like fielding smaller elite armies and some prefer as many boots on the table as possible. However in the cause against VAS they have exactly the same problem Vanguard have, that theres a cheaper similar option in the same part of the force organisation chart (in the case of BA it would be the death company and their rending chainswords of fury).
My opinon is that both are a bit too expensive for taste.

Quote from: strikeforce_comander
2-Also, although we've come to a conclusion to it on these forums, I'd perfer it if GW would put in wheather or not the VAS can deep strike (we concluded that they can). That way, I don't have to explain it every time I play a pick-up game.

The solution to this is actually quite easy, page 52 of the 5th edition codex specifies that all jump pack units have the ability to deep strike (end of the movement section). Even if they didn't have it before 5th edition, they do now!

Quote
4-Lastly, I find it odd how they put in that the DC Dread gets an extra D3 CC A's, but not the reg DC marines. They're both afflicted by the same Black Rage aren't they?

It seems fairly reasonable that they angrier, apart from the fact that they're locked in a metal box they've likely been in there a lot longer than a death company marine survives on foot.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: YuenglingDragon on January 14, 2009, 09:32:04 PM
I live in eternal fear of their ability to cost twice as much as a normal space marine and die just as easily... ;)
Hehe...touche.

I think in some armies, notably pure and mostly drop pod armies, Vanguards have a place that assault squads can't compete in.  Drop on a locator beacon and charge.  The Assault squad would add a few mostly useless shots and contribute nothing if you need to get a squad thats been assaulted out of the amphetamine parrot.

9 out of 10 armies should use assault marines.  The other one needs Vanguard.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Moto Gaheris on January 14, 2009, 11:59:30 PM
Chaplain Dreads?  Where in the fiction would this be found?
   The DC Dread is mean enuff. 
  Our space vampires seem well off compared to other Smurf armies.  So the Boys in Blue have new toys.  Hey they don't have other options like we have...DC, Furioso, Assault squads as troops, Baal Tanks.   
  I like to count these options as reasons why we don't need to ask for more from GW.  Look at the fact that the Angels are no longer afflicted by the "roll for each unit before the game and certain models become DC,"  or the "make a rage roll for each Blood Angel unit to see if they Rage and Must move towards the closest enemy unit!"  Remember when  Blood Angel armies never fielded Devastator Squads due to this?
  As for the Dark Angels, I wish Our terminators could Deepstrike in on the first turn!
   
I'd prefer it if GW would put in whether or not the VAS can deep strike (we concluded that they can). That way, I don't have to explain it every time I play a pick-up game.

The solution to this is actually quite easy, page 52 of the 5th edition codex specifies that all jump pack units have the ability to deep strike (end of the movement section). Even if they didn't have it before 5th edition, they do now!

Assault squads are perfect for my Blood-lusting warmonger attitude.   Lemartes is in every one of my armies, just like my former 3rd ed. Chaplain with J-pack (and back then i gave him Dual L-claws too).

   Yeah I'd like errata concerning the Deepstrike ability for all J-packs.  And More flamers for the assault squads, but i can't get enough of our Death Company!
   I say take your time putting out another Codex, help others first.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Locarno on January 15, 2009, 02:31:09 AM
Quote
-Lastly, I find it odd how they put in that the DC Dread gets an extra D3 CC A's, but not the reg DC marines. They're both afflicted by the same Black Rage aren't they?

They get 1 extra attack - remember they're normal astartes, not necessarily veterans. +D3 is just the result of being (a) humungous and (b) extra angry, as Hymirl said.

Quote
Chaplain Dreads?  Where in the fiction would this be found?
Imperial Armour Volume 6. For which there is extent rules and a model, for that matter. Not that I advocate putting it into the codex, but just mentioning it for completeness.

Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: NewHeretic on January 15, 2009, 10:52:16 AM
I honestly think that the BA are just fine the way they are. 

It is perfectly reasonable to desire that some FAQs be addressed or that some ineffective units be adjusted points-wise, but complaining that they don't get the same benefits as Vanilla chapters in the new Space Marine codex is just ridiculous.  After all, Codex chapters don't get Assault Squads as scoring units, Furioso Dreadnoughts, or Baal Predators (which I'd really like!).  BA get some treats and Codex: Space Marine chapters get some treats.  You can't expect to have your request taken seriously if you're asking for all the goodies in one basket without granting the same boon to everyone else.

NewHeretic
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: YuenglingDragon on January 15, 2009, 12:28:09 PM
Imperial Armour Volume 6. For which there is extent rules and a model, for that matter. Not that I advocate putting it into the codex, but just mentioning it for completeness.
Check it out here. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/SPACE_MARINE_DREADNOUGHTS.html)
It's a pretty nice model, though I think the DA and BT ones are better.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: jimbo1701 on January 16, 2009, 09:49:17 AM
I rather treacherously traded in my BA-printed codex for a nice shiny new SM codex back in October, but am now having DC/Baal/Furioso withdrawal and so have gone back to the BAs!! Changes I personally would like to see that bring BAs more in line while keeping them unique:

Wargear - addition of wargear from codex SM i.e. new storm shields, relic blades to make the astartes seem more uniform.

HQ -
special characters
Chaplain (same stats as now, option to upgrade to dreadnought for mega HQ choice!)
Captain (more in line with codex one)
Libby (more psychic powers)
Sanguinary priest (similar rules to corbulo, so no need for special characters every game)
Honour Guard (one per HQ? Same flexibility but better champion and wargear options)

Elites -
Dreadnought (furioso/DC upgrade)
Venerable dreadnought (furioso/DC upgrade)
Termies (in line with codex marines - 1 squad may take LR transport)
Assault termies (in line with codex marines - 1 squad may take LR transport)
VAS (same options, plus heroic intervention cos they're every bit as good as codex marines)
Techmarine
Death company (would like to see them as a purchasable upgrade, not compulsory, with a limit being set on amount of DC-takable units in army - don't take up elite slot)

Troops -
Tactical
Assault (Count as troops if captain has JP?? - similar to bike rule in C:SM)
Scouts (having them in elites they may as well not exist, and besides, CSM have how many troops options??!)

Fast attack -
Bikes
Attack bikes
Land speeder
Land speeder storm
scout bikers
Assault marines (see troops)

Heavy support -
devastators
land raider (increased capacity)
land raider redeemer
land raider crusader
Baal predator
Predator
Vindicator
Whirlwind

Something along those lines would make me very very happy. I'm happy with it as it is tho - it's playable and balanced, just some things don't make much sense when compared to the C:SM and there are units I'd like to take and can't. (i.e. scout bikers)
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: NewHeretic on January 16, 2009, 02:01:32 PM
Changes I personally would like to see that bring BAs more in line while keeping them unique:

My paraphrase:  Let us keep all the cool BA stuff and give us all the cool new Codex: Space Marine stuff too.

Come on!  Are you serious?  I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but is my paraphrase really that far off?

NewHeretic
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Guildmage Aech on January 16, 2009, 02:31:29 PM
HQ -
special characters
Chaplain (same stats as now, option to upgrade to dreadnought for mega HQ choice!)
Captain (more in line with codex one)
Libby (more psychic powers)

Have you even thought about what you're typing? You want the captian upgraded to the newer better one, but want to keep the older better stats for Chaplians and Libarians? And you're suggesting that this is even remotly fair?

Quote
Something along those lines would make me very very happy.

I'm sure it would, since you're clearly more intrested in taking powerful units than any sort of game ballance why not ask for Eldrad, Plague Marines and the monolith while you're making your wishlists...
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: jimbo1701 on January 16, 2009, 02:55:13 PM
It really doesn't take much to stir up a hornets nest around here does it? For the record I was literally just spewing ideas in a spare moment at work - it doesn't need to be taken that seriously to pass comment on it now does it? I'll clarify a little:

Chaplain: As they play a much more prominent battlefield role in the BA (i.e death company) than they would in a codex Chapter, something the author of C:SM made clear in interview by stating that they are more 'spiritual leaders' than close combat monsters, it would be nice fluff wise to retain that distinction. If not no great shame. BA Chappys get higher BS/I/A while codex marines get a higher Ld. (near pointless as they make units fearless but never mind) The BS could be toned down easily but I'd hate to lose both the higher I and A due to how well it complements the death company. Upping the price to 120 would be a compromise I could live with.

Captains - I apologise for not being clearer - by more in line I was mainly referring to the fact rites of battle has been (except for one special character) eliminated from C:SM. Not 100% on wargear, but other than that the only difference between them is the higher WS. I can't see that losing rites of battle and upping the weapon skill by one (which doesn't make much difference unless it's commander vs commander) is actually going to make much difference. While at a stretch I can see that BA leaders may all be more inspirational than their codex bretheren, I can't believe they're all worse trained in close combat. Thats' what I meant by bringing things in line.   

Librarians - I'd be happy with stats the same as C:SM, but I think only 2 psychic powers is highly limited, compared to the 9 that every codex chapter can use.

And so long as the points costs are high, how does it affect game balance so drastically? We already have an uber-powerful unit that kills other units with ease in the form of the death company, yet we pay 35 points each for them (with JPs) to balance things out. Come on guys, try to be a bit more open-minded before being so critical.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Raktra (So long, I guess) on January 16, 2009, 03:00:41 PM
Why have the "Jump Pack Captain = more assault squads" kerfuffle? We already have Assault Squads as troops, without penalty. I wouldn't want to suddenly have to pay more for that now.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Jerseyboy381 on January 16, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
OK, I hate to be "that guy" but here we go.  The Angels, same as every other chapter with their own book get stuff Codex marines don't.  In exchange, we get stuff you don't.  That's how it is and how it should be.  If everyone gets everything then there should be just one codex and the BA/SW/BT codexes would all be declared obsolete and unusable for official play.  They are diferent and that's the whole point of them having thier own books. 

Basically what you don't get from the new book (chosen from what's been begged for/debated since October...others not listed left out for lack of begging):

Relic Blades/Storm Shields/wargear variations, new psyker powers, BS 4 Drop Pods, Land Raider upgrades/POTMS changes, new veterans.  There's probably a few more that BA players want, but those seem to be the biggies.

What you DO have that we don't:

Faster Rhinos, assault troop choices, better chaplains (that are also more useful), Rites of Battle, Death Company(FREE, RENDING marines...what more can you ask for?), Assault Troops, WS/BS 4 scouts (sure they're elite, but they're WAY better snipers then ours are), Baal Pred, Furioso Dread, DC Dread...

We have different stuff then you and you have different stuff then us...maybe because we're DIFFERENT armies.  If we were all meant to be the same army, we'd have one big book with everything in it and what would be the point of the diferent codexes?  If every army was supposed to be the same there would just be "Codex, 40K" and everyone would have exactly the same army.  The differences are what make the varied armies all fun.  Sure you're Space Marines, but you don't work like mine and I like it that way.  I thought this argument was put to bed months ago and aside from what may be the fastest banned member I've yet to see most people get that.  There are armies that DESPERATELY need work (Dark Eldar...Necrons...) and they are getting that work.  The Blood angels are in good shape right now, so either play this fluffy and fun army as always or if you want the new stuff so bad, play a standard codex army.  Don't expect to get both because then there'd be no point to have your special book at all.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: jimbo1701 on January 16, 2009, 04:05:07 PM
Why have the "Jump Pack Captain = more assault squads" kerfuffle? We already have Assault Squads as troops, without penalty. I wouldn't want to suddenly have to pay more for that now.

I thought it might be a nice rule so that scouts/tacs could be taken as the standard troops same as with codex marines and then if you wanted RAS as troops you had to take a JP captain, similar to the bike rule in C:SM. Sorry, mis-worded it slightly, didn't mean that you could take both.

I'm actually very happy with the Codex as it is now and if GW produced a proper BA codex that resembled this one more or less I'd be happy with that. I could live without redeemers/ironclads as they are specialist patterns in the same way that furiosos/Baals are. I'd prefer to see captains and scouts the same stats as codex marines too - after allour scouts are novices unlike say the SW wolf scouts.

The only thing I (and probably many other BA/DA players) don't like are the equipment/rule discrepencies between the armies, simply as it makes little sense fluff-wise or common-sense wise why these thigs shouldbe different for BAs than other codex armies. Examples:

Rules: Rites of battle/scout WS and BS/heroic intervention/blessing of the omnissiah/power of the machine spirit/lack of psychic powers

Equipment: storm shields/relic blades/drop pods/cyclone missile launchers

As mentioned, if a BA codex were released tomorrow that was pretty much the same as we have now (i.e. no ironclads/MotF/Chapter master/redeemer/scout bikes/LS storms/sternguard/LotD/Thunderfires etc....) with these other non-sensical discrepencies fixed, I would be more than pleased. My own personal wish list is more based on the models I have from defecting to codex marines I guess - but hey, scout bikers and redeemers are cool. Anyway, there are ways of doing it to please both camps. 
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Raktra (So long, I guess) on January 16, 2009, 04:13:26 PM
It would be a bit stupid for them to have a Chapter master as an option, seeing as it's just one chapter. Dante fulfils this greatly.

LOTD don't really fit with Blood Angels. Neither do Sternguard really.

The Redeemer I agree on, it's essentially a fat Baal Predator.

Thunderfires are too static.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: jimbo1701 on January 16, 2009, 05:04:26 PM
Agree totally, there's no need to add any of these units per se as BAs already have enough awesome unique units. If anyone wanted to play successor chapters then they may want a chapter master, but I should think a 'counts as' Dante would be as good as. (and I'd personally rather have a sanguinary priest as another HQ instead) Fluff wise, a redeemer would fit with the BA ethic and LotD are supposed to appear whereever they are needed, despite which chapter is in need, but these are things best left to the regular codex.

Slightly off topic, but am I the only one who thinks the Iron hands get a raw deal? The master of the forge is basically an iron hands character with an Iron hands fluffy rule, (dreads as HS) but never gets acknowlegded as such. Even the later founding Crimson fists get a special character in the form of one of the only two special character Chapter Masters. In fact, even in the BRB the Iron hands are the only first founding not mentioned. And we think Blood angels have it hard ;)
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Raktra (So long, I guess) on January 16, 2009, 05:24:45 PM
Crimson Fists used to be poster boys, and IIRC, Pedro Kantor was 40k's first named character.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: jimbo1701 on January 16, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
Crimson Fists used to be poster boys

Sigh, as did Blood Angels back in the day before those pesky smurfs became GWs golden boys :(
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: YuenglingDragon on January 16, 2009, 07:41:17 PM
Sigh, as did Blood Angels back in the day before those pesky smurfs became GWs golden boys :(
Hardly.  BA got a combo codex with DA in 2nd.  Ultra's have always been the template Chapter.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: jimbo1701 on January 16, 2009, 08:06:10 PM
Before that even. Both in Epic and 40k BAs were the principle Eavy metal army
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Lucky_Jackal on January 16, 2009, 10:25:59 PM
I was just looking threw the blood angles codex. I got to say, I can't think of any other codex that can say "hey! We have jump infantry for troops!"

That has to count for something.

Not to mention Death Company is awsome. There Genestealers wannabes in power armour! (Genestealers still beat them with a higher WS and I. But still, being a MEQ counts for something!) AND then can take jump packs.

A army of Assault mariens with melta equiped attack bikes for tank busting. Sounds like it could be interesting.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen on January 17, 2009, 12:26:28 AM
Going to give my ideas on how I think the Blood Angels should be.

------------------------------

As Codex: Space Marines, with the following changes:

All models gain Furious Charge and lose Combat Tactics.

Death Company becomes a 'proper' unit, 0-1 choice (i.e. you don't have to take any at all) based off the Vanguard Squad, at +10pts each.  Gain WS5, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Counter Attack and Rage (no Rending), with all weapon options allowed as normal.  Adding a Chaplain to the unit removes Rage while he's alive, but he may not leave the unit once he's joined it.  The Chaplain becomes Fearless and gains Counter Attack while part of the unit, but does not get Feel No Pain.

Tactical Squads become 1+, so you have to take at least one unit of them. 

Assault Squads become Troops, and cost +2pts each (due to them becoming Scoring Units, and thus much more useful).

Scout Squads become Elites.

No access to Sternguard.

------------------------

Only really complicated change is to the Death Company, making it more customisable and optional to Blood Angel players.  Also makes them damned expensive, but still able to rip anything to pieces (possibly more able since they can take Power Fists again).  And I never liked them having Rending.

~Andromidius
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Qui-Gon Jinn on January 17, 2009, 12:35:51 AM
*whisper*The Chaplain is already fearless....

But it looks interesting, to say the least Andromidius.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: HORDE on January 17, 2009, 05:17:58 AM
Going to give my ideas on how I think the Blood Angels should be.

------------------------------

As Codex: Space Marines, with the following changes:

All models gain Furious Charge and lose Combat Tactics.

does this mean BA won't get assault squads as troops? because furious charge on your ccw wielding troops choices is a bit brutal
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen on January 17, 2009, 08:11:47 AM
*whisper*The Chaplain is already fearless....

I always forget that.  I was also going to add Preferred Enemy to the Death Company, but thought it was overpowered...forge tting again that Chaplains confer this as well.  Opps.

But I guess that works out then, and really encourages (but doesn't force) Blood Angels players to put a Chaplain in with their Death Company.  Or to ever have to take either of them.

I was considering altering their Scouts a bit as well, but I thought it might be a bit naff taking away Furious Charge from them.

~Andromidius
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Moonsinger on January 17, 2009, 08:31:24 AM

*says something about Dark Eldar codex+whine noises*

But I can agree, the PDF version is pretty crappy, cost so bloody much and... what, where they thinking?
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Lucky_Jackal on January 17, 2009, 10:31:23 AM
I think the death company are alright as they are. I might give them preferred enemy for the pure reason of fluff. But even then, Lemartes gives them Re-Rolls.

All death company are, are a bunch of crazy loyalist mariens. There not Chaos Blessed, There not generically engineered xeno ninjas. Also taking Lemartes or a chaplin with them makes them fearless (and counters the anoying rage rule). They look alright to me on paper.

Also there entry is worded "A blood angles unit MAY take one unit of Death Company". I take that as meaning, your not forced to have to take them. =/
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: HORDE on January 17, 2009, 01:26:34 PM
Also there entry is worded "A blood angles unit MAY take one unit of Death Company". I take that as meaning, your not forced to have to take them. =/

i think people's problem is that you are paying the price of death company soldiers regardless of whether you use them or not.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen on January 17, 2009, 06:38:16 PM
Yeah, it's not an option really when you're still paying the price regardless of if they are on the table or not.

Oh, and I also forgot about the Furioso and Baal.  Those would, of course, be added into my codex ideas.  Pretty much as they already are, only with updated weapon stats.

And I'd give Command Squads the option of taking Jump Packs, just just Honour Guard.

~Andromidius
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Zeller on January 21, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
Give us furious charge on every marine. If anything, that is what I ask.

2D6+strength AP on a Furioso would also be cool.
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Guildmage Aech on January 22, 2009, 12:03:01 PM
Give us furious charge on every marine. If anything, that is what I ask.

And why should you have it? Because you want the overpowered 3rd edition army back?
Title: Re: Blood angels codex, NOW
Post by: Locarno on January 23, 2009, 06:48:23 AM
That, I would point out, is what Corbulo is for.
In a new-version codex, I might suggest giving him a jump pack option (the one thing he's missing, as a result of the .pdf update being done under "no new models" rules*, but other than that, if you want furious charge, take corbulo and stick him front and centre. Univeral Furious charge ahoy.




* the same reason mephiston required the "Wings of Sanguinius" power that so unneccesarily handicaps any librarian that isn't him....