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The Armies of 40k => Necrons => Topic started by: Gutstikk on November 1, 2011, 06:29:47 PM

Title: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 1, 2011, 06:29:47 PM
Elite Units:

This thread is reserved for discussion of the 2011 Necron Codex Elite units. Please discuss other Force Organization entries in their appropriate threads. Discussion of dedicated transports can be placed either alongside the unit (where appropriate) or in the Necron Vehicle Discussion thread.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: headfirst on November 5, 2011, 11:36:42 PM
Compare Deathmarks to the warriors from the preceding codex. Taking into account the difference between RP and WBB, it's still pretty crazy. Deep Strike, pick enemy unit nearest as target, obliterate with rapid fire. Also, the models are amazing. I'll be getting me some soon... when I get more money...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 6, 2011, 05:57:55 AM
deathmarks are nice, i love them,
but my favorite models are teh trairch and lychgaurd, although i like the jump infantry a bit more, but those dispersion shields are really funny, it makes some people think twice before shooting a volley of plasma fire into them.
the c'tan shards, could be usefull, but I'm not seeing it atm,
triarch stalker, wow, costs a bit, but a great model, heat ray combined with targeting relay i like it, flayed ones are nice, but i don't think i'll use them often
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: PhoenixLord1989 on November 6, 2011, 06:07:16 AM
From the few games under my belt with the new codex I found that the C'Tan Shard is really worth its points if you take the Writhing Worldscape and Lord of Fire (mainly to keep points down on a already costly model and since you need a min/max of 2 powers.) This really helps with a heavy vehicle list which seems to be all too common. Especially helps with keeping the enemies units from getting into assault.

I also love lychguard but because of the price tag I would never take more then 5 in a squad but that also imposes the problem of if the squad gets run down they wont be getting back up.

As for the rest of the Elites I like then but don't know what role I would use them for just yet.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: ith on November 6, 2011, 12:48:35 PM
I've been really enjoying the Triach Stalker with its basic load out.  I've been using it to mark a unit for death, which has been really helpful to weaken units getting ready to charge my Warriors.  Also, it's not a pushover in CC with its S, Attacks and Quantum Shielding.  It has helped bail out a few Warriors stuck in melee.

I did have a bystander say that when I Heat Ray templated two units, both should be marked.  I don't think Targeting Relay actually supports that though, so we ignored it.  It's an interesting thought though.

@PhoenixLord1989

That's the same C'Tan Shard setup I'm looking at trying out.  I tend to be playing on boards with lots of difficult terrain.   :D
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 6, 2011, 09:30:10 PM
The C'Tan Shards are definitely worth it IMO. What you want to do with them though is to keep them as cheap as possible. For example I tested one out as the Deceiver with Grand Illusion and Swarm of Spirit Dust and neither abilities really came into play but he still did a hell of a lot of damage to Demon Princes and Dreadnoughts. So play to the advantages of their statline and keep it cheap. Lord of Fire and Writhing Worldscape do sound like a great way to go and I also planned on this for my next list. (Worldscape, Times Arrow, or even Entropic Touch just to keep it bare bones cheap)

The Triach Stalker does seem pretty expensive until you remember it has the Targeting Relay and the only melta weapon in the codex (right? or did I miss one?) and that weapon also has 2 different weapon profiles! I don't see the use of any of the weapon upgrades, especially the most expensive one, a single Twin Linked Heavy Gauss Cannon. The cheaper Particle Shredder I'd really have to think about but honestly I think other units in the codex can fill the role of this weapon easier, like Immortals for example.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 6, 2011, 09:45:38 PM
For Lychguards, I think Shields + Swords will be the only sensible way to play them, often with a Resurrection Orb lord to maximize brickwall-osity and keep them on the table. I just don't see any need for the Warscythe version of Lychguard. Attach a Lord with Orb + Warscythe and call it a day, I say!
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Tomb Spyder on November 6, 2011, 10:15:00 PM
Deep Strike, pick enemy unit nearest as target, obliterate with rapid fire. Also, the models are amazing.

If I read correctly, it mentions nothing about doing anything other than Deep Striking in on an enemy turn.  I do not think they can shoot until their turn.  Overall, with the 24 inch range for a sniping unit, I am disappointed.

The C'Tan shards look pretty appealing except for the 4 initiative.  Hitting simultaneous with MEQs is a big let down for me.

Stalkers? OK, I'm sold on this choice except for sneaking in the S7 so we cant kill MEQs outright.

Flayed Ones......Sorry.  You have too much competition to get into my army.  Move through cover or something would have helped you out a bit.

Lychguards and Praetorians.  Both seem to be good solid units, but once again, the low Initiative is going to haunt them.  I am curious to see how these will do in games.


Overall, a pretty decent pool of Elites to choose from, but I do see their flaws.  Semi-solid choices from what appears to be a semi-solid codex.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 7, 2011, 12:43:35 AM
Deep Strike, pick enemy unit nearest as target, obliterate with rapid fire. Also, the models are amazing.

If I read correctly, it mentions nothing about doing anything other than Deep Striking in on an enemy turn.  I do not think they can shoot until their turn.  Overall, with the 24 inch range for a sniping unit, I am disappointed.

It has Aerial Assault, and Deep Striking vehicles count as having moved at Cruising Speed when they come in (pg 95)...you do the math.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Raktra (So long, I guess) on November 7, 2011, 01:06:24 AM
Deep Strike, pick enemy unit nearest as target, obliterate with rapid fire. Also, the models are amazing.

If I read correctly, it mentions nothing about doing anything other than Deep Striking in on an enemy turn.  I do not think they can shoot until their turn.  Overall, with the 24 inch range for a sniping unit, I am disappointed.

It has Aerial Assault, and Deep Striking vehicles count as having moved at Cruising Speed when they come in (pg 95)...you do the math.
He's on about Deathmarks, not Nightscythes.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: pudd on November 7, 2011, 01:59:06 AM
The only good thing I can say about the deathmarks special deepstriking thing is that it would mean that they wouldn't count has having moved when your turn rolls around so you could either move them or keep them stationary and fire. If that gets FAQd out or something then I would be deploying them with the rest of my army instead of putting them in reserve.

Lychguard with swords shields is how I'm rolling with them. The low initiative means they really need to be able to stick around to make use of their good strength.

Flayed ones are out I'm afraid, I didn't really like the old models and I dislike the new ones even more so they are a no go for me. Also the money cost for them is incredible.

C'tan shard with writhing worldscape and possible sentient singularity paired with 2 crypteks with the tremorstave means that a lot of people will be taking dangerous terrain tests which will mostly drive them into the open where we can open up with the doomsday cannons and destroyers. I know this kinda relates to other parts of the FOC but without the C'tan shard it isn't that good a tactic.

Not a huge fan of the praetorians and will be making lychguard instead. If I had to say the good things about them it would be that they move fast, the rods of the covenant are nice and they won't be running away from a lost combat but thats it. Less attacks, low initiative, and no inv save means that if they get a chance to hit in combat, I can't see it doing too much.

Unsure about the triarch walker at the moment, the armour is tough but if something gets through there is a good chance it will do damage. The TL heavy gauss cannon and the targetting array mean that it will be one of the first things to shoot in a shooting phase where something big really has to die.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 7, 2011, 08:51:21 AM
Deep Strike, pick enemy unit nearest as target, obliterate with rapid fire. Also, the models are amazing.

If I read correctly, it mentions nothing about doing anything other than Deep Striking in on an enemy turn.  I do not think they can shoot until their turn.  Overall, with the 24 inch range for a sniping unit, I am disappointed.

It has Aerial Assault, and Deep Striking vehicles count as having moved at Cruising Speed when they come in (pg 95)...you do the math.
He's on about Deathmarks, not Nightscythes.

Ah I see, misread that.

Looking further into the codex I can see the Triarch Stalker getting used reasonably often because it has a nice force-multiplier effect with its targeting relay and two multi-melta type shots is very solid considering you have a chance to shake off shaken and stunned results to keep it shooting.

As for the C'Tan shards, my lingering worry about using them is that they suffer from an even worse case of "Wraithlord Poison-itis", namely that useless junk with Poisoned attacks in force will just bring them down with ease, ex: bunch of Hormagaunts with Poison. I really wish it had a 3+ invul save, as it stands it's not particularly survivable. But some of the abilities are interesting, Writhing Worldscape combined with the giant laser beam could let you stay back and support the army well enough without getting too close to danger.

I'm at a loss to understand why Mat Ward didn't make Flayed Ones troops given that he didn't really do anything particularly interesting or powerful with them. Yes they can outflank but they have no options for any special gear that would make them particularly strong. I don't actually think they are unusable, I just don't see why they couldn't have been troops.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 7, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
I'm at a loss to understand why Mat Ward didn't make Flayed Ones troops given that he didn't really do anything particularly interesting or powerful with them. Yes they can outflank but they have no options for any special gear that would make them particularly strong. I don't actually think they are unusable, I just don't see why they couldn't have been troops.

My only reasoning behind Flayed Ones not being troops is the new fluff about them having a sickness and how most other Necrons hate them, even enough to kill them after the battle...In my game with them, I infiltrated into/behind a ruin away from my force but near the enemy objective. They could have posed a distraction but a Defiler decided to move close enough to keep me from pushing forward. Basically I got stuck in the ruin with terrible movement rolls, not having Move Through Cover sucks...Their base number of attacks is great though so I'm starting to think the only way to run these is a very large unit to make up for the poor initiative.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Baron Wastelands on November 7, 2011, 06:56:14 PM
In terms of adding members of the court to Elite units, I'm already sold on adding a necron lord to a smallish unit (5-7) of lychguard with shields, with a rez orb, a warscythe, (and maybe a phase shifter if I have the points); but the question of what to add to deathmarks (if anything) is more of a problem. First off, does adding a lord or cryptek prevent the unit from deepstriking?

Secondly, I can't settle on the most appropriate addition - I'm thinking cryptek, and though Veil of Darkness would seem fluffy and keep them mobile, the Despair staff is of limited use in that configuration. Alternatively, the harp of dissonance seems complimetory, and the tremorstave not bad for keeping prey at range, so this is tempting . . . anyone tried running crypteks with deathmarks yet?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: GaleRazorwind on November 8, 2011, 02:37:22 AM
What about attaching a Destroyer Lord with the Phaeron upgrade (the one that gives the squad Relentless) to the Deathmarks? Since he is Jump Infantry, he can Deepstrike, he is pretty darn tough, and it would allow you to be a little more conservative with your Deep Strike placement or just give you a better chance to be able to at least single shot at 24". I suppose it would be pretty expensive, though.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: PhoenixLord1989 on November 8, 2011, 05:06:25 AM
What about attaching a Destroyer Lord with the Phaeron upgrade (the one that gives the squad Relentless) to the Deathmarks? Since he is Jump Infantry, he can Deepstrike, he is pretty darn tough, and it would allow you to be a little more conservative with your Deep Strike placement or just give you a better chance to be able to at least single shot at 24". I suppose it would be pretty expensive, though.

A destroyer lord can't take Phaeron as an upgrade though.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 8, 2011, 02:35:29 PM
deathmarks,, the one thing i wonder is, when they deep strike, they come into the field, this means i can choose a unit so they can wound one a 2+? right?

preatorians, pure elitehunters, take 10, and look for the annoying termi's or other heavy armoured units, rod of covenent, superb against them, you just have to jump from cover to cover to get the maximum out of them
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 8, 2011, 02:39:02 PM
deathmarks,, the one thing i wonder is, when they deep strike, they come into the field, this means i can choose a unit so they can wound one a 2+? right?

You pick the unit when the Deathmarks are "deployed" so the question is during "deployment" when you choose to "deepstrike" does that count? Or do you wait until the unit hits the table?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 8, 2011, 02:55:11 PM
deathmarks,, the one thing i wonder is, when they deep strike, they come into the field, this means i can choose a unit so they can wound one a 2+? right?

You pick the unit when the Deathmarks are "deployed" so the question is during "deployment" when you choose to "deepstrike" does that count? Or do you wait until the unit hits the table?

jup that's kinda what i want to know, and something else, take 3 squads, choose 3 different targets, 3 times more fun
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Changeyname on November 8, 2011, 03:31:39 PM
The rules for reserves and deepstriking have the answers to that, pages 94-95 of the BrB

Reserving a unit is quantified with the line "players my choose not to deploy one or more of their units....." hence a unit in reserve is not deployed
Furthermore, down the page we have the sentence "Once all the units have been rolled for, the player chooses any one units and deploys it"

Deepstriking is simply a special method of deployment in which the unit MUST start the game in reserve so putting all that together:
Units in reserve are NOT deployed, the Deathstrikes choose their foe when deployed and that only happens AFTER they arrive from reserve, which happens to be Deepstriking in this case

Simples ;)
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Trokair on November 8, 2011, 05:14:25 PM
I am thinking of using my Tomb Stalker as a count as C’tan Shard and was wondering what two abilities would represent it best.

As for the other elites, I wish that Flayed Ones had kept or gained some special ability as right now all the other choices seem more appealing. Or is there a use I am not seeing?


Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 9, 2011, 12:33:40 AM
only real use I see for flayed ones is as a inexpensive melee unit, and even in that roll they arn't all that good.  If you you take Imotekh then you do get the bloodswarm scarabs that let you be more precise in their deepstriking, the only issue being that they are put on a random unit so if you want them to assault a vulnerable long fangs on the back table edge and the scarabs are on the grey hunters who are scrapping it out with your lychguard then it doesn't help much.

Other than that, yea there are just a lot better choices in the army, the 2 initiative really hurts their CC ability unless you're up against really weak models like guard or tau who can't hurt you much.

Overall, flayed ones are one of the biggest dissapointments in the new codex, they give them a really unique background story (they are outcasts even among necrons).  I think it would be cool if they had some nice special abilities but always gave the enemy a kill point at the end of the game (to show the other necrons either killing them or driving them off after the battle was over).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 9, 2011, 11:28:42 AM
The rules for reserves and deepstriking have the answers to that, pages 94-95 of the BrB

Reserving a unit is quantified with the line "players my choose not to deploy one or more of their units....." hence a unit in reserve is not deployed
Furthermore, down the page we have the sentence "Once all the units have been rolled for, the player chooses any one units and deploys it"

Deepstriking is simply a special method of deployment in which the unit MUST start the game in reserve so putting all that together:
Units in reserve are NOT deployed, the Deathstrikes choose their foe when deployed and that only happens AFTER they arrive from reserve, which happens to be Deepstriking in this case

Simples ;)

Thanks for explaining that clearly, I knew it was somewhere to be found :)

Ok so I really want to use Deathmarks because they look awesome, would give me a reason to buy a box of Immortals (and convert some leftover Warriors into Immortals with leftover bits) so what would pair well with them? It seems necessary to play to their strengths of "marking" a target for the to wound roll so perhaps adding in a Triarch Stalker to "target" the enemy that is "marked" will most certainly spell doom for them. Now do you want to footslog them or utilize the Night Scythe transport? We all know if the Night Scythe gets blown up before delivering it's cargo, the poor unit inside goes into reserves and has to walk onto your side of the table so if using Deathmarks you'd probably want to deepstrike the Night Scythe, then deploy from it on that turn. Once you deploy, you can pick the target to be marked and hope for the best. But if you're doing this, why not just deepstrike the Deathmarks on their own? You don't "have" to deepstrike on the enemy turn but having that Transport avaliable might be useful to reposition.

What about the optimum squad size? A small unit of five seems to fit well with me on initial thought. This gives them a smaller footprint for deepstrike and hopefully makes them less of a priority target (assuming their marked target is already dead so the enemy doesn't have to worry about protecting them).

Next comes a question about marked targets. Lets say you choose to mark a unit of Dire Avengers with an attached Farseer. If the Farseer leaves the unit, is it still marked? And thus if it joins another unit, is that new unit count as marked?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Log on November 9, 2011, 12:24:41 PM


Next comes a question about marked targets. Lets say you choose to mark a unit of Dire Avengers with an attached Farseer. If the Farseer leaves the unit, is it still marked? And thus if it joins another unit, is that new unit count as marked?

Using the same example, if that Farseer had Fortuned the Avengers and then left the unit, (it is generally accepted that) he does not take fortune away with him. So I would suggest the same would happen if the unit had been marked, it would stay with the unit.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Zilverscale on November 9, 2011, 12:27:00 PM


Next comes a question about marked targets. Lets say you choose to mark a unit of Dire Avengers with an attached Farseer. If the Farseer leaves the unit, is it still marked? And thus if it joins another unit, is that new unit count as marked?

Using the same example, if that Farseer had Fortuned the Avengers and then left the unit, (it is generally accepted that) he does not take fortune away with him. So I would suggest the same would happen if the unit had been marked, it would stay with the unit.

Could you mark the Farseer in the Dire Avenger unit?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: croggy on November 9, 2011, 01:43:13 PM
i agree it would stay with the unit and not transfer to the IC but one thing i will add is if you ar taking deathmarks you really need to take 3 units and mark 3 enemy units with them then systematically gun down each one

even against large ork mobe the death marks will be a great help
(3 units of min(5) would be getting 10 hits and 8-9 wounds a turn now against t4 thats not too bad at all)
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 9, 2011, 03:25:08 PM
Using the same example, if that Farseer had Fortuned the Avengers and then left the unit, (it is generally accepted that) he does not take fortune away with him. So I would suggest the same would happen if the unit had been marked, it would stay with the unit.

Agreed but then the question comes up as...

Could you mark the Farseer in the Dire Avenger unit?

I think I forgot to put this in my original question. But can you mark an Independent Character that is already in a unit. Even if you can or can't, if an Independent Character is somehow Marked and then joins a unit, will you still gain the benefits shooting at the new combined unit?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: enlg on November 9, 2011, 05:37:31 PM
^If not explicitly stated, generally rules concerning having extra bonuses vs. units are not transferred to squads of mixed models. Instead the rule is used when you are only targeting the model that you get bonuses against.

So you can still target the farseer and therefore wound him/her on a 2+, but only in close combat.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 10, 2011, 11:54:56 PM
About the Lychguard and Dispersion Shield. What do you think would be a better idea against an enemy unit firing AP4+ weapons at you within 6" range, using your Armor Save against wounds to lessen your casualties or to use the Invulnerable Save to rebound as many shots back at the enemy as possible? Obviously if the enemy has worse armor then the weapon's AP value it might be more worth it but in the end I'm not sure I would risk it considering how expensive the models are.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 11, 2011, 12:47:41 AM
About the Lychguard and Dispersion Shield. What do you think would be a better idea against an enemy unit firing AP4+ weapons at you within 6" range, using your Armor Save against wounds to lessen your casualties or to use the Invulnerable Save to rebound as many shots back at the enemy as possible? Obviously if the enemy has worse armor then the weapon's AP value it might be more worth it but in the end I'm not sure I would risk it considering how expensive the models are.

It would really depend on the situation.  your troops have a 1/6 less chance of surviving while 1/2 of the shots fired at you will be deflected back.  If you are confident your lich guard can handle them in close combat without a problem (they are guard/tau etc) then I would go for keeping your guys alive.  If the enemy is an active threat to your troops and it's worth risking one or two more casualties to take some of them out then go for it.  think it's on a case by case basis.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 11, 2011, 01:06:52 AM
It would really depend on the situation.  your troops have a 1/6 less chance of surviving while 1/2 of the shots fired at you will be deflected back.  If you are confident your lich guard can handle them in close combat without a problem (they are guard/tau etc) then I would go for keeping your guys alive.  If the enemy is an active threat to your troops and it's worth risking one or two more casualties to take some of them out then go for it.  think it's on a case by case basis.

I agree. I was trying to come up with some cases in my head where there would be a huge volume of fire to see if it could potentially make up for the possibility of taking more wounds. Even if you had a combined squad of 50 Guardsmen using First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, you would probably reflect 12-13 shots back at them causing 8-9 wounds but take 12-13 wounds on your own Lychguard...Definit ely not worth it's points. But you probably wouldn't want to assault said 50 Guardsmen in the following turn anyway so let your Warriors or Immortals deal with them at range.

Basically always take the Armor Save! Let the Dispersion Shield try to reflect shots that could actually void your armor (and thus probably also the enemies). In the end though with such a small reflection bubble, most weapons will just try to stay outside of it, it's not like they'll need to get all that close unless assaulting. So make sure your Lychguard move close to units you don't have to worry about getting retaliation from so if anyone trying to stay out of the bubble shoots you, you can still reflect it at someone else.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 12, 2011, 07:08:49 AM
do you think deathmarks are worth deepstriking in most of the time.  I tend to have bad luck with deepstriking in general, scatter dice are  usually not too kind to me and my opponents know how to cover decent sections of the board when I have a lot of deepstrike troops to discourage me trying to land too near.
In addition, with their special rule they land on the opponent's turn, which gives your opponent the chance to shoot at AND assault them before they can get a single shot off.

Anyone tried these guys out in practice yet, using their ethereal interception rule?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on November 12, 2011, 02:15:55 PM
Triarch stalkers with Heavy Guass cannon....


Having an effective AV of 13 until a pen hit, living metal, and targeting relay... for 165 pts is really quite impressive. In particular, the targeting relay could help a bit. With an average bs of 4, means that getting a re-roll-able 3+ is quite nice. I can see it being especially nice with the Tachyon arrow.

It is a great platform for the Heavy Guass cannon as well, giving it a nice effective range of 42''...

I am looking at having two of these running in a list, could help bring down a high priority target.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Baron Wastelands on November 12, 2011, 04:18:31 PM
In addition, with their special rule they land on the opponent's turn, which gives your opponent the chance to shoot at AND assault them before they can get a single shot off.

Don't forget they don't have to use the special rule; you can still deep strike them normally. But I see the ethereal interception ability as useful, just not necessarily to plonk them down next to the enemy unit, within assault range.

Firstly, it avoids the situation where your opponent is deploying reserves (even deepstriking them) while your reserve rolls are against you. You can bring more to the table at the same time your opponent does.

Secondly, you get to have a normal turn with them immediately following, rather than being restricted by deep strike penalties.

But the real use I can see is tactical deployment to immediately counter your opponent's threat. Assault troops just deep-striked behind your lines, about to get at some juicy target? Immediately deploy a squad of deathmarks within 12", (the other unit can't assault from deep strike most likely), and then have a full turn of rapid fire shooting at them before they can close with anything. A lot of firepower just appeared on a flank, about to tear a hole in whatever you have advancing carefully along that edge? Drop some deathmarks down, and either draw their fire, or be there to return in kind if they choose to go ahead with plan A.

There's a lot of playtesting ahead, of course; but I see this as potentially very useful, if used with a little thought. Enough to convince me to convert up a squad, anyway  :D
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 12, 2011, 07:11:09 PM
Triarch stalkers with Heavy Guass cannon....


Having an effective AV of 13 until a pen hit, living metal, and targeting relay... for 165 pts is really quite impressive. In particular, the targeting relay could help a bit. With an average bs of 4, means that getting a re-roll-able 3+ is quite nice. I can see it being especially nice with the Tachyon arrow.

It is a great platform for the Heavy Guass cannon as well, giving it a nice effective range of 42''...

I am looking at having two of these running in a list, could help bring down a high priority target.

Honestly I can't justify spending any points on a single twin linked heavy gauss cannon over a 2 shot multi melta that also is a heavy flamer... Sure you'll gain a bit of range but it's our only melta weapon in the game that is also dual purpose! Luckily for a Walker, the Quantum Shielding will help in combat and even without good Initiative, you can hold up a lot of enemies with less then S7 if necessary.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on November 12, 2011, 07:22:19 PM
I don't see the need for melta weapons when we have guass. The short range on meltas, meaning that you'd have to be in the same range as a charge from scarabs - I don't see this melta weapon as being needed. The fact that you only get one shot is really the biggest draw back. But you can use it to snipe at a squad, and then target relay to focus fire on that unit.

For me, units should complement each other, not operate on their own. If I need it to take a tank out, then I will rely on scarabs and guass, which can still benefit from target relay.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 12, 2011, 09:10:26 PM
Coming from experience, Gauss is difficult to Destroy vehicles with. While teaming up Entropic with other weapons is nice and all, why have the need to waste multiple units of fire when a two shot multimelta can do it once and for good. Plus the multitasking of a Heavy Flamer and a tarpitting walker give the Stalker a great multipurpose role. It just seems a little expensive to keep in the back shooting off a lousy lascannon just to let other units shoot better. That's my take on it anyway :)
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: RezZzeD on November 12, 2011, 10:40:41 PM
Apparently people on some forums (not so many on our beloved 40konline) have been speaking ill of the Triarch Praetorians because they are slow (low I), do not have many attacks for their points (in comparison) and just don’t match up.  So let’s do a brief look at them in their defense.

For the equivalent FOC slot and point cost of a tactical terminator (because marines are the most common comparison), Praetorians have identical WS, BS, and W.  We have +1 S, T, and Ld.  On the down side, they have -1 A, -2 I, and a slightly worse Armor Save.  Terminators also have an invulnerable save, but we have a matching Reanimation Protocol, which is awesome if the attack does not ignore our armor because they effectively stack (sort of).  That is where our comparison of stats ends.

Now let’s delve deeper into the abilities of the Praetorians.  They are Jump Infantry, allowing us to Deep Strike and giving us movement enough to launch an 18” (12”+6”; not the same turn that we DS) assault, vaulting over terrain and models alike.  This is a much better assault threat range than those terminators we were being compared to earlier.  “But you have such a low Initiative and low number of attacks,” you say?  We have this really cool “rod” that has a short range, matching strength to our profile, armor ignoring shot.  So, if we know how to correctly use our fast moving, resilient, assault-y units, we know that this is equivalent to another cc attack, before anyone gets to even look at their statline initiative and that hits on a 3+, regardless of your WS (which against MEQ’s, in combat we’d hit on a 4+).

So now we’ve shot our target from within assault range, what to do next? Well, we could have that unit of scarabs move 18”-24” to tar pit them, or we can do the assaulting ourselves. We have most likely eliminated part of the opposing unit (yes, I’ve done the math hammer, it’s boring to read), reducing their number of attacks if we do assault, so, being an informed player, make a decision to attack or not on your own.  But please don’t leave them open to assault, tie that unit up with something else if you don’t assault them.  If you are going to put Praetorians in cc, do it on your terms, you are jump infantry after all.

Now, remember, if you do assault, they hit slow but strong.  They’re faster than those power fists and thunder hammers, but slower than those lightning claws, and they don’t get to come back until combat has been resolved.  Fortunately, they won’t be running, even if they lose combat, unlike our lychguard brethren or terminator counterparts.  So Praetorians can’t be swept, but they do have to stand and fight.  This is good or bad, as with any unit, but they have the leadership and armor save to back it up also.

The goal is to cripple the enemy unit in the first assault turn, because after that you are stuck with one attack per model per turn, and it’s not too pretty.

So, other notes. 
So in conclusion, no, Praetorians are not terminators and do not fulfill the same role as terminators, but I think they are definitely worth their value for what they do.  This post is not to say that Lychguard are not worth it, because face it, they’re awesome.  But Praetorians are much faster and a great reactionary unit. And yes, there are other comparisons besides terminators, but it’s an equivalent cost and just simplifies it.


Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 12, 2011, 11:02:54 PM
the Krikkit robots... sorry, Triarch Praetorians really isn't especially impressive, granted they aren't terrible but it isn't a far stretch. They are exceptionally expensive, their combat output is too limited to be able to solve any kind of worthy situation and their ranged attack is also hamstrung by the lack of range or impressive rate of fire. If you want to use their shooting power you risk getting assaulted since no solid target will actually be destroyed by their shooting and if you want to assault you lack the amount of attacks and initiative to get clear of the fight and they simply aren't cheap enough for either case.

Are they terrible? No, but they are severly overpriced with seriously lame capabilities. You could use them as a source of AP2, try removing a few wounds on monstrous creatures and clear up under-strength squads but that hardly is something that 200+ points units should be limited to.  :(

They are quite cool though and a fun choice but don't kid yourself - they are the Swooping Hawks of the Necrons codex.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 12, 2011, 11:13:17 PM
They are hardly swooping hawks - they are rather hard to bring down, and can get back up on top of that. If you want a fair amount of attacks swap fpr the voidblades and particle casters. Keep in mind they can deepstrike with the particle casters as well, making them a threat to enemy armor if needed. I think the praetorians default mode is to utilize the voidblade and caster combo, and only rely on the rod of covenent for specific plans. I'm thinking of doing some fun things with them and tomb spyders working together. Should be a blast.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: RezZzeD on November 12, 2011, 11:56:12 PM
They are quite cool though and a fun choice but don't kid yourself - they are the Swooping Hawks of the Necrons codex.

Yea, that's a stretch.  While mathhammer is just on paper, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Terminators have a good chance at taking the terminators in round 3 with one survivor.  While that's in a closed system and doesn't really mean this would happen, it does mean that they have some serious fight in them versus something of equal points, that does have a serious power weapon and invulnerable save.  And that's after 3 rounds, pretty decent if you ask me.  Could lychguard do it better? possibly.  But could the lychguard get to them fast enough a. when it counts, b. without being shot up first by storm bolters?

The key is using them correctly, and their mobility helps you do this greatly.  And while Gutstikk is digging on the voidblades and particle casters, I like the up close force of the rods.

I think discounting these guys as close to terrible would be a mistake if you are up against them.  I'll let you know how my play testing goes.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 13, 2011, 02:37:43 AM
Yea, that's a stretch.  While mathhammer is just on paper, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Terminators have a good chance at taking the terminators in round 3 with one survivor. 

Which really only proves my point. Against a unit that is the ultimate target for this squad (Tactical Terminators) they still fail to deliver. Killing a squad of equal points over three rounds while being ruined in return doesn't constitute effectiveness, it is a pyrrhic victory at best. 40k is about damage output not unit resilience, some units manage to rely on resilience but the Praetorians isn't one of them due to their expense. Against more regular targets such as five grey hunters and a wolf guard they actually end up being tied for about as long as the Terminators manage (for almost half the price), it simply isn't effective to require several turns to destroy a target and come through with most of the unit being dead.

The Reanimation Protocols are a great shield - outside of close combat. It is not comparable to an invulnerable save in close combat due to the fact that the models wounded prior to their initiative don't get to fight even if the Reanimation Protocols passes, they have no contribution during the turn they get wounded which is something that is hard for Necrons to afford since they need all the output they can get in close combat.

The key is using them correctly, and their mobility helps you do this greatly. 

Unlike other units which don't require correct use?  ::)

To state that something requires correct application has nothing to do with how useful and effective a unit is. If you do use Praetorians (something I myself have planned to do) they will have uses and sometimes be quite nasty but that doesn't mean they are effective or well-balanced, it just means that they actually have characteristics and weapons. If a Space Marine squad was priced twice its current point cost it would still be a Space Marine squad, but an imbalanced one, it would still be able to do whatever the regular Space Marine squad is able to do.

They are hardly swooping hawks - they are rather hard to bring down, and can get back up on top of that. If you want a fair amount of attacks swap fpr the voidblades and particle casters. Keep in mind they can deepstrike with the particle casters as well, making them a threat to enemy armor if needed. I think the praetorians default mode is to utilize the voidblade and caster combo, and only rely on the rod of covenent for specific plans.

So if your plan is to attack rear armour with deep strike why not roll with some Destroyers which are better at it and nastier against other targets or even Wraiths with particle casters which also surpasses the Praetorians in close combat? They are not literally Necrons' Swooping Hawks, they are a unit with similar balance and performance issues.

I think their best use is hunting Carnifex, join up with Wraiths for combined assaults (whip coils ahoy!) and killing off depleted MEQ/TEQ squads. Neither of these tasks are really worthy of such an expensive unit but it would be fun and they are an interesting unit that will throw out curve balls, against both you and your enemy.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 13, 2011, 01:45:17 PM
In my tests games I'm not a fan of the Wraiths either. Rending relys on a lot of wounds, which needs a lot of attacks. A max squad of 5 is needed for this and still fail to really put out the hurt in my experience. On top of all that, a full squad with coils is very expensive..
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 13, 2011, 09:22:49 PM
They are hardly swooping hawks - they are rather hard to bring down, and can get back up on top of that. If you want a fair amount of attacks swap fpr the voidblades and particle casters. Keep in mind they can deepstrike with the particle casters as well, making them a threat to enemy armor if needed. I think the praetorians default mode is to utilize the voidblade and caster combo, and only rely on the rod of covenent for specific plans.

So if your plan is to attack rear armour with deep strike why not roll with some Destroyers which are better at it and nastier against other targets or even Wraiths with particle casters which also surpasses the Praetorians in close combat? They are not literally Necrons' Swooping Hawks, they are a unit with similar balance and performance issues.

I was taking issue with the literal comparison to swooping hawks - we both know that Swooping Hawks tend to underperform and have a big design issue in that one of their strongest abilities requires not having the Hawks on the table :). Praetorians also work quite nicely with Wraiths since they occupy different force org sections yet have similar implementations. I think they probably play nicer with Wraiths than with Destroyers. Between Praetorians, Overlords+Crypteks with Veils, Wraiths, Monoliths  and Immortals, you could have a very speedy army that can get about the table quickly and do quite a bit of damage in one localized area before flitting off to another specific area, with all units working together to bring down the enemy piecemeal.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 13, 2011, 09:49:20 PM
I was taking issue with the literal comparison to swooping hawks - we both know that Swooping Hawks tend to underperform and have a big design issue in that one of their strongest abilities requires not having the Hawks on the table :).

Yep, but in my mind they are also a sort of benchmark for units that are overpriced and lack significant damage output hence their use as a reference for the Praetorians.

Between Praetorians, Overlords+Crypteks with Veils, Wraiths, Monoliths  and Immortals, you could have a very speedy army that can get about the table quickly and do quite a bit of damage in one localized area before flitting off to another specific area, with all units working together to bring down the enemy piecemeal.

I see those capacities as more in the realm of counter-attacks but with enough pressure anything can break. :)

Not the Fast Attack thread but...

In my tests games I'm not a fan of the Wraiths either. Rending relys on a lot of wounds, which needs a lot of attacks. A max squad of 5 is needed for this and still fail to really put out the hurt in my experience. On top of all that, a full squad with coils is very expensive..

Sounds like bad luck, Wraiths should be quite solid against almost any enemy; they have the raw strength, resilience and attacks for it and with rending they can even hold out against Terminators and be quite nasty towards vehicles. As for full squad with whip coils, I doubt that is necessary, in a full squad 2-3 whip coils should do enough initiative dropping for them to work.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: enlg on November 13, 2011, 09:49:32 PM
I might also add that (in theory) praetorians gain more from their army's skimmers than swooping hawks do from their army's skimmers. Swooping hawks need to see infantry targets to do the most damage to them. Praetorians can hide behind necron skimmers and then jump out to assault devastators or small combat squads.

As I most often play as Nurgle chaos, I would say that one should not underestimate the power of jump infantry+running to gain distance and the resilience of T5 vs. small infantry squads. Having 5 T5 infantry with power weapons is a pretty brutal thing, especially when you can (through shooting and charging) get 15 power weapon hits on a small squad. That can easily remedy devastators (and long fangs). The only problem is grey knight and terminator units, that will tear them up in CC (but wraiths can help vs. the grey knights, but not vs. THSS termies).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 14, 2011, 02:48:12 AM
I might also add that (in theory) praetorians gain more from their army's skimmers than swooping hawks do from their army's skimmers. Swooping hawks need to see infantry targets to do the most damage to them. Praetorians can hide behind necron skimmers and then jump out to assault devastators or small combat squads.

Keep in mind that skimmers don't block line of sight, although in my playgroup we do have them provide a 5+ coversave to infantry behind them.

I think a major factor in using pretorians is what army you're up against.  Against armies that lack powerweapons/fists in the majority of their squads they are excellent in they are really durable.  However, a single powerfist in a squad can potentially cost you a lot of points.

Overall, I personally think wraiths are more versitile.  They don't need to hug cover as their save is invulnerable, which also means they don't care if they are up against power weapons or normal infantry and are less likely to be sniped by the odd lascannonr or krak missle.  They also have 2 wounds which makes up for having less toughness than the pretorians.  Finally, 4 attacks on the charge with S6 will devestate weak infantry and rending will help againt more elite infantry.  they also have the option of whip coils if they need the edge in initiative.

Pretorians can be useful but they are limited by lack of invulnerable save and low number of base attacks (some bad rolls on the charge could have them tied up for too long).  I would say they are great for taking out small heavily armored squads or tarpitting large weak squads that lack special CC weapons.  but power fists/weapons in general will really hurt them, in addition to being hit by long range anti-MEQ weapons.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 14, 2011, 09:44:21 AM
Keep in mind that skimmers don't block line of sight, although in my playgroup we do have them provide a 5+ coversave to infantry behind them.

Skimmers can block line of sight, this isn't a previous edition, true line of sight happens. There is a possibility, depending on the model. Obviously a Valkyrie won't be blocking line of sight but a Monolith for sure will. I can't compare with Eldar vehicles as I hardly see actual models of them on the table...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 14, 2011, 09:50:40 AM
Ah, I forgot as it was so long ago.  with true LOS we had a huge discussion on if skimmers blocked LOS since some players argued that their infantry could "see under" the skimmers, the skimmer players then threatened to shorten their bases so they would block LOS, in the end, just to prevent arguments in game and excessive amounts of time trying to peak around skimmers to see if there is LOS or not, it was finally decided that that they provide a cover save to units behind them.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 14, 2011, 12:25:40 PM
Ah, I forgot as it was so long ago.  with true LOS we had a huge discussion on if skimmers blocked LOS since some players argued that their infantry could "see under" the skimmers, the skimmer players then threatened to shorten their bases so they would block LOS, in the end, just to prevent arguments in game and excessive amounts of time trying to peak around skimmers to see if there is LOS or not, it was finally decided that that they provide a cover save to units behind them.

This is how we treat all skimmers at my LGS. The game is not static, and skimmers could be hovering low, or flying up higher to move over things. We even do this for ravens and valkries despite their tall stands.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: prot on November 14, 2011, 02:19:35 PM
The Praetorian vs Lynchguard debate is interesting indeed. (It's not that I don't consider the Wraiths, just frankly after years of being forced to use them, I don't want to anymore. lol)

I am really torn between these two units. Deflector shields are just a cool idea, though I don't see them getting used in most situations.

Originally I was going to go with the Lynchguard because to me a bid factor is initiative and how it relates to survivability. The shields on Lynchguard obviously help survivability issues.

However, one thing that I've noticed is some are saying the reanimation protocols are a form of invulnerable save... which could be true, except most armies are going to have 5 praetorians/lynchguard if at all. They might all be dead.

The conclusion I am coming to is Lynchguard might be better for a static army. They are better at facing firepower, and it's not the end of the world if they get assaulted. They might be around to come back from the parts box too.

Praetorians might be better suited to multiple army types. I see them obviously being more mobile, but more fragile.

I think I'm going to go with 5 Praetorians with Rods of Covenant.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: RezZzeD on November 14, 2011, 07:35:57 PM
However, one thing that I've noticed is some are saying the reanimation protocols are a form of invulnerable save... which could be true

Not quite.  An invulnerable save keeps you up and fighting, RP lets you get back up once you went down.  If you go down in cc you might miss your turn to strike, while an invulnerable save will keep you up and swinging.  But, if you don't have an option of an invulnerable save, RP will do as a close second.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 14, 2011, 09:33:40 PM
However, one thing that I've noticed is some are saying the reanimation protocols are a form of invulnerable save... which could be true

Not quite.  An invulnerable save keeps you up and fighting, RP lets you get back up once you went down.  If you go down in cc you might miss your turn to strike, while an invulnerable save will keep you up and swinging.  But, if you don't have an option of an invulnerable save, RP will do as a close second.

To add, don't forget the obvious that if the squad is too small (like Praetorians and Lychguard will probably be because of their points) then Reanimation Protocols might not even come into effect because the entire squad has already been knocked down.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: BritishBill on November 15, 2011, 12:00:38 AM
Very interesting discussion about Lychguards versus Praetorians. I had started favouring Lychguards but now wonder if the extra movement that Praetorians have doesn't cause me to reverse my decision. But I have question about how the rules would work for a Praetorian with Voidblades and Particle Casters in close combat with a vehicle or model with an armour value.

So I have charged the tank or dreadnought and I get three attacks for charging and having two close combat weapons. So far so good, I hope.

So if I haven't lost any of my guys, I have 15 attacks and lets say I hit with 7 of them. I think what I then do, given that the void blade has Entropic Strike, is to roll 7 dice looking to throw 4 or more, lets say I throw 4 dice at 4+. So against a Dreadnought, I have just reduced its front armour to 8.

Is this the end of what I have achieved in close combat, or do I now get to roll 7 dice (because I got 7 hits) to resolve my armour pentration against a front armour of 8, in which case I might get 3 or 4 pentrating hits. It would take an awfully long time to reduce a vehicle down to an armour value of 0 on one of its faces, so I assume I must also get my normal penetration roll and take my chances on the damage table at some point. But does this happen during the same turn as the entropic effect and if it does, before or after the armour value has been reduced.

I have looked through the codex, and I don't think it is spelled out either way. If I have missed the definitive answer there or in any other GW communication, can you please point me in the right direction. I am sure you can all see the advantages of this logic in dealing with vehicles and dreadnoughts as they approach .... but am I hoping for too much ?

***  Sorry guys, I see now that this question has been addressed in the Rules Forum, but it appears that the community cannot agree on the answer. Probably better not to reopen that deabte again, but a definite answer would certainly influence my decision as to whether I might want to take Lychguard with WarScythes or Praetorians with Void Blades in an Elite Slot.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: RezZzeD on November 15, 2011, 12:28:25 AM
I don't know if they should be mutually exclusive.  At a high enough point cost I plan on fielding both Praetorians and Lychguard, as they fill different roles.

Britishbill, a lot of people appear to be favoring the Lychguard with shields and swords for the invulnerable save over the war scythes.  I haven't formed an opinion yet, but definitely check 'em out.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: enlg on November 15, 2011, 01:54:47 AM
Another nice thing about Praetorians is that, when behind wraiths, they can get cover and can be a nice non-fast attack assault unit. Also consider the fact that scarabs can be assaulted by strong 1-wound infantry and taken down, while Praetorians can't due to their high toughness. I could imagine dreadnoughts getting utterly ruined by void blades due to only being able to kill 2-3 praetorians at max before getting their armor dropped.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 15, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
I've settled for the time being on a unit of Praetorians, a unit of Lychguard, and a unit of Flayed Ones. Flayed Ones are the outflanking element of the force which I've grown to consider a key element of my most successful lists, since it tends to corral the enemy into the center of the table. This makes it easier for my units to focus on the enemy in one place, which is important when my gun range and movement may both be less than that of the enemy's.

Lychguard - there's no reason not to rely on these guys if you take a Night Scythe as well. In one turn they'll be set up to attack pretty much anywhere you want, without much fear of losses on the way in. Since you can attach a Lord if you so choose I find the warscythes to be the les exciting option - a full unit of scythes is plain overkill.

Praetorians - This unit is an excellent assist unit which can contribute to other elements of your army, adding a bit of extra punch whether you're sending them at vehicles, monstrous creatures or elite infantry. Heckm they can even do a number on line infantry if need be, due to their resilience and potentially high number of attacks. I prefer the voidblades and particle casters due to increased threat range and higher S on the gunshot, but both options have their place.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 15, 2011, 06:34:28 AM
Lychguard - there's no reason not to rely on these guys if you take a Night Scythe as well. In one turn they'll be set up to attack pretty much anywhere you want, without much fear of losses on the way in. Since you can attach a Lord if you so choose I find the warscythes to be the les exciting option - a full unit of scythes is plain overkill.

The problem for this kind of manoeuvre is the one Killersquid mentioned, the risk is awfully high that your unit will end up in reserves and having to walk back on. That is a lot of points being denied to have a great effect. The times it works it will be brutal but against most armies the Night Scythe will be a prime target and sending about 300+ points back into reserves is worth a lot of fire power attention.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 15, 2011, 06:54:16 AM
A Monolith certainly makes the approach much more reliable. Two nightscythes and a monolith or two isn't a terrible thing to drop into a list, for the points...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: prot on November 15, 2011, 08:36:51 AM
Lychguard - there's no reason not to rely on these guys if you take a Night Scythe as well. In one turn they'll be set up to attack pretty much anywhere you want, without much fear of losses on the way in. Since you can attach a Lord if you so choose I find the warscythes to be the les exciting option - a full unit of scythes is plain overkill.

The problem for this kind of manoeuvre is the one Killersquid mentioned, the risk is awfully high that your unit will end up in reserves and having to walk back on. That is a lot of points being denied to have a great effect. The times it works it will be brutal but against most armies the Night Scythe will be a prime target and sending about 300+ points back into reserves is worth a lot of fire power attention.

I keep thinking about this. I also keep thinking that this MUST be a GOOD thing in 6th edition. I am not purposing we talk about 6th edition, but some of the rules, like the Night Scythe rule seem to be highly negative to me. I would much rather have a unit like Lynchguard get out, and stand in a crater, or whatever, than get teleported back to reserve. That could effectively take them out of the game.

I still can't decide though. There are good points for either unit but I feel in my current army set up I can only go one way: Praetorians or Lynchguard.  For me the load out is an easy decision. It's more a battle for me to decide if I want a very slow, but sturdier unit, vs the quicker acting, but less survivable Praetorians and their shooty glory (which I think is better than close combat anyway.)

I do know after playing Termies the other night, you NEED a unit to stop the bleeding.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: enlg on November 15, 2011, 02:30:34 PM
People could choose to start their night scythes in reserves could they not? Then they can at least cover some ground through transport, allowing the squad to move/run to where they need to get to. Not the best choice, but also, if you successfully silence certain guns, all of a sudden your night scythe might be safe when it comes on the board, making there no need for a come in-then-disembark situation.

It lets you cater to the situation while minimizing the negative element of the night scythe's "reserve the cargo" ability.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 15, 2011, 07:22:38 PM
If you play a Night  Scythe with something slow inside like Lychguard, then it makes sense to also have a Monolith in the army so that you can pop them right out on your turn. That way you avoid the problem of having Lychguard showing up on your table edge.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 26, 2011, 07:27:57 PM
I was going back over the unit entries for the Praetorian Guard and the Wraiths and happened to notice the new, much sexier W stat the wraiths have in this edition. I've since reconsidered my position on Praetorian Guard. Generally you'd want to field wraiths first in most situations. The praetorians seem a more sensible middle of the road choice and occupy what appears to be one of the least necessary pieces of the FOC (which is also one of the more crowded ones).

I think I'm still gonna go for them to try and get some mileage out of the RP rules and their pretty decent toughness values as well as a less expensive (but more vulnerable) shooting capability. But man, these guys keep looking more and more like they could have used a tiny bit of extra love...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 26, 2011, 08:56:50 PM
I was going back over the unit entries for the Praetorian Guard and the Wraiths and happened to notice the new, much sexier W stat the wraiths have in this edition. I've since reconsidered my position on Praetorian Guard. Generally you'd want to field wraiths first in most situations. The praetorians seem a more sensible middle of the road choice and occupy what appears to be one of the least necessary pieces of the FOC (which is also one of the more crowded ones).

I think I'm still gonna go for them to try and get some mileage out of the RP rules and their pretty decent toughness values as well as a less expensive (but more vulnerable) shooting capability. But man, these guys keep looking more and more like they could have used a tiny bit of extra love...

I feel this way about a lot of the codex (I'm looking at you flayed ones). It's a good book with lots of options, but I feel it's a bit under powered compared to the other 5th edition books (but better than Nids). I think 6th will make the new Necrons book a lot more powerful.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 26, 2011, 11:37:13 PM
It's not so much that it's underpowered - the stuff does what it ought to do. I'm just a little confused as to why praetorians and wraiths are as similar as they are. Suppose it lets you spend a LOT of points on that sort of close combat unit. Still...

On the whole I'm quite happy with flayed ones. I think they're mostly better in the new book by a lot. That A stat improvement is really helpful, to be very certain.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: RezZzeD on November 27, 2011, 12:56:30 AM
On the whole I'm quite happy with flayed ones. I think they're mostly better in the new book by a lot. That A stat improvement is really helpful, to be very certain.

How many are you running?  Infiltrating or outflanking?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Khulric on November 27, 2011, 01:34:48 AM
This is probably what I am most concerned with.  I remember running some flayed ones back in 3rd.  Now I can say that I miss them.  So I'm hoping to see how they've been doing for other people.

I haven't tried them in the new book yet, but I'm considering a cheap, 8 man unit to outflank or infiltrate and harass my opponent's rear units.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 27, 2011, 04:28:04 PM

How many are you running?  Infiltrating or outflanking?

Outflanking all the way. Infiltrating them can be useful but it's mostly if you're planning on putting lots of vulnerable squads on the table and want to force your opponent to deal with them. If they had a shooting attack this would be a different stroy, but since the opponent can guarantee one turn to deal with them, they will deal with them if they have to. Your job when infiltrating is to make certain the opponent shoots the flayed ones rather than other units, by being in a sensitive location and hoofing it at their prey as fast as possible.

Outflanking's a much better scenario in my opinion since you are planning on having them come in from a table edge and assault something immediately. With a high enough S val to glance most vehicles even enemy armor isn't safe from them. They can whack away at anything with T7 or less and if the squad's big enough they'll be a credible threat to anything on the charge turn. Your job here is to ensure that the enemy, who will avoid the edges as much as possible to avoid a big charge from the flayed ones, is always in range of your short-ranged shooters in the mid-field. So it goes well with a list that plans on getting the warriors and immortals onto the table, off their transports and into rapid-fire range as quickly as possible. You could even turn it into a combat-friendly situation for Warriors joined by an Overlord and standard Lord with scythes, so long as the warlord has Phaeron it should be a lot of damage from a troops choice.

I love outflanking units. Especially assault units. It's one of the more powerful capabilities a unit can have, and so I always try and fit at least one such unit into just about any army I field.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: enlg on November 27, 2011, 08:33:17 PM
^Also if I am correct can't they be given furious charge with Zahndrek? That could cause a lot of trouble if you have 10-15 flayed ones attacking (a squad or vehicle).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 27, 2011, 09:05:58 PM
I still can't justify Flayed Ones as a reliable unit to center your strategy around. They might be better in offensive power, but losing out in the defensive category as well as not having Move Through Cover really hurts them. Plus they don't even have any version of Terrifying Visage to give them a boost before getting hit in combat with their pretty awful new Initiative value. Basically they lost a lot more then they gained and it hurts. I am curious to see how it works out with a huge squad.

The easiest way to make them work IMO is to take a minimum squad and outflank or infiltrate to block enemy deployment. I think they'll be durable enough to assault some small rear line heavy weapon squads, and enough attacks to worry artillery. I've tried a squad of 10 just for kicks and they got stuck in a ruin trying to keep a cover save while moving forward (not the greatest movement rolls).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 27, 2011, 10:18:28 PM
Basically they lost a lot more then they gained and it hurts.
I can't agree with this, they gained an entire extra attack and became about 30% cheaper while losing a few things which don't matter as much - having move through cover would mean that they would have to be about 3-4 pts more expensive each since outflank-capable units are already very strong in this edition of the rules. Yes, they could have been made more expensive with more abilities but I actually quite like the lower point cost.

I have found units of 10 to be too small - 15-20 seems like the sweet spot for these guys so far since they generally take 5-8 casualties before hitting combat.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 28, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
Even in the new book, I'd rather pay the old price for the old Flayed Ones with the extra rules. They are not that much cheaper now with 1 more attack but half the Initiative! Who cares how many attacks you get when half your squad is already dead before you can swing...That's the biggest issue I have.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 28, 2011, 12:31:12 AM
Even in the new book, I'd rather pay the old price for the old Flayed Ones with the extra rules. They are not that much cheaper now with 1 more attack but half the Initiative! Who cares how many attacks you get when half your squad is already dead before you can swing...That's the biggest issue I have.

I understand what you're saying but there is nothing in their price range that should be killing half the squad before they get to attack. Maybe against dedicated elite choices but even then those types of things cost way more points than Flayed Ones. Besides, even if your opponent gets lucky and kills a few more than expected, that's why you have a large unit max (20), the extra attack each means you will counter-punch much harder. Do the mathhammer and I guarantee you'll see they are light-years beyond what they used to be even in the old codex despite the initiative drop and loss of Visage. They also combo extremely well with Furious Charge from Zahndrekh because the extra attacks mean a lot more.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Halfpast_Yellow on November 28, 2011, 12:46:29 AM
I think deepstriking Scythes are probably the best way to employ Elite slot units like Deathmarks.

You can disembark and fire the Deathmarks in addition to the Tesla Destructor. This avoids the clumping the deathmarks up for blast templates, and you've got excellent odds on getting them into that rapid fire sweetspot.

Depending on the base size of the Flyer stand, you could even bring back a type of 'Fish of Fury' tactic, where the Deathmarks deploy on the other side of the Scythe stand and shoot over it.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 28, 2011, 03:17:23 PM
I understand what you're saying but there is nothing in their price range that should be killing half the squad before they get to attack. Maybe against dedicated elite choices but even then those types of things cost way more points than Flayed Ones. Besides, even if your opponent gets lucky and kills a few more than expected, that's why you have a large unit max (20), the extra attack each means you will counter-punch much harder. Do the mathhammer and I guarantee you'll see they are light-years beyond what they used to be even in the old codex despite the initiative drop and loss of Visage. They also combo extremely well with Furious Charge from Zahndrekh because the extra attacks mean a lot more.

That is a very good point, if they are up against similarly priced units they should do fine. If you keep the Flayed Ones attacking Tactical Squads or weaker then they'll probably do their job nicely. Alternatively I still feel a minimum outflank squad would be great against Guard or any army with rear artillery that isn't protected very well.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Azonalanthious on November 28, 2011, 03:56:45 PM
I think deepstriking Scythes are probably the best way to employ Elite slot units like Deathmarks.

You can disembark and fire the Deathmarks in addition to the Tesla Destructor. This avoids the clumping the deathmarks up for blast templates, and you've got excellent odds on getting them into that rapid fire sweetspot.

Depending on the base size of the Flyer stand, you could even bring back a type of 'Fish of Fury' tactic, where the Deathmarks deploy on the other side of the Scythe stand and shoot over it.

I'm not a huge fan of deathmarks as a whole, but I do think they are probably the best unit to use in a scythe since their own deep strike rules help compensate for the 'tossed into reserve' possibility with the scythe.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 28, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
I'm not a huge fan of deathmarks as a whole, but I do think they are probably the best unit to use in a scythe since their own deep strike rules help compensate for the 'tossed into reserve' possibility with the scythe.

Don't forget you can't Deepstrike if placed into Reserves because of the Night Scythe being destroyed. It seems if you use the transport, the Deathmarks would get one good round of shooting but if they don't kill their enemy, they'll probably be killed. But if they do, the Scythe will be great for redeploying across the table.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Azonalanthious on November 28, 2011, 04:10:38 PM
Doh, forgot about that.  hrm... the night scythe is falling steadily in my esteem.  I grow less and less impressed with it.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 28, 2011, 04:47:45 PM
Doh, forgot about that.  hrm... the night scythe is falling steadily in my esteem.  I grow less and less impressed with it.

never realy thought it was something good,, it can transport lychgaurd, but you cannot assault when you move, and moving 1 turn and standing still the other seems like something dull to me,, (maybe with the 36' flat out and cover) but that's guessing,,
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: broodlord93 on November 28, 2011, 05:00:45 PM
i feel deathmarks and flayed ones in particular lose out to the other elite choices, as i cant think of a time when i would take them over the others unless it is for theme. i really think that the other elite choices bring more to the army than these two do, with lychguard forming a solid rock of a unit, stalkers have the twin-linked goodness rule, praetorians i think are actually very good because of being jump infantry and fearless and of course c'tan shards............. .yay for writhing worldscape
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 28, 2011, 05:27:26 PM
Deathmarks are extremely clunky to use, and I HATE relying on on the 6s to rend to get any sort of good damage out of them. Sadly, you can not deepstrike, and still get the 2+ to wound if they are the only unit (read the rules if you don't know this already). So Deesptriking in and blasting something to death isn't really option. While they do get a large number of sniper shots, they don't get the range benefit. So whatever isn't dead is going to kill the Deathmarks in return.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 28, 2011, 05:37:48 PM
Deathmarks are extremely clunky to use, and I HATE relying on on the 6s to rend to get any sort of good damage out of them. Sadly, you can not deepstrike, and still get the 2+ to wound if they are the only unit (read the rules if you don't know this already). So Deesptriking in and blasting something to death isn't really option. While they do get a large number of sniper shots, they don't get the range benefit. So whatever isn't dead is going to kill the Deathmarks in return.

I was under the impression that "deploying" included either being placed into reserves during "deployment", or arriving on the table for the first time, but I don't have a rule book on hand.

I think they will be handy for Monstrous Creatures though where you can get a lot of wounds in plus hopefully some rending.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 28, 2011, 06:12:33 PM
Deathmarks are extremely clunky to use, and I HATE relying on on the 6s to rend to get any sort of good damage out of them. Sadly, you can not deepstrike, and still get the 2+ to wound if they are the only unit (read the rules if you don't know this already). So Deesptriking in and blasting something to death isn't really option. While they do get a large number of sniper shots, they don't get the range benefit. So whatever isn't dead is going to kill the Deathmarks in return.

I was under the impression that "deploying" included either being placed into reserves during "deployment", or arriving on the table for the first time, but I don't have a rule book on hand.

I think they will be handy for Monstrous Creatures though where you can get a lot of wounds in plus hopefully some rending.

The 2+ rule would not apply until they arrived on the table. According to the wording in codex, they can't take advantage of their own 2+ on that same turn I believe.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 28, 2011, 07:06:08 PM
The 2+ rule would not apply until they arrived on the table. According to the wording in codex, they can't take advantage of their own 2+ on that same turn I believe.

Well, let's see:

"When a Deathmark unit deploys, choose a non-vehicle enemy unit on the battlefield (even a unit in a transport) to be their prey - place a counter next to the chosen unit to serve as a reminder. Any Deathmark unit that shoots at, or strikes blows against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a Wound on a roll of 2+."

So...where exactly are you understanding that Deathmarks don't get 2+ wounds against their chosen unit in the same turn they deep strike in? Deathmarks deploy by deepstriking, they shoot normally, wounding on 2+. Seems cut and dry to me.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 28, 2011, 07:09:24 PM
Nightmoor has it right. Additionally, you can select different targets to mark, and then dump multiple units of deathmarks at a single target at a time, then use VoD or monoliths to move the cluster to the next target they wish to shoot up. They're actually a pretty decent unit for a list focused on shooting, since everything else in the list can focus on infantry or tanks, these guys can focus on monsters, ICs and other nuisance targets that you wouldn't want to waste a brick of firepower on.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Azonalanthious on November 28, 2011, 07:51:46 PM
Hrm, didn't notice that they effectively 'share' each others marks.  That does bump them up the scale a bit for me, at least if taken en mass. 
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 29, 2011, 10:59:19 AM
The 2+ rule would not apply until they arrived on the table. According to the wording in codex, they can't take advantage of their own 2+ on that same turn I believe.

Well, let's see:

"When a Deathmark unit deploys, choose a non-vehicle enemy unit on the battlefield (even a unit in a transport) to be their prey - place a counter next to the chosen unit to serve as a reminder. Any Deathmark unit that shoots at, or strikes blows against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a Wound on a roll of 2+."

So...where exactly are you understanding that Deathmarks don't get 2+ wounds against their chosen unit in the same turn they deep strike in? Deathmarks deploy by deepstriking, they shoot normally, wounding on 2+. Seems cut and dry to me.

I stand corrected. I did say "I believe" as my buddy is barrowing the codex currently. Thought it applied later.

Nightmoor has it right. Additionally, you can select different targets to mark, and then dump multiple units of deathmarks at a single target at a time, then use VoD or monoliths to move the cluster to the next target they wish to shoot up. They're actually a pretty decent unit for a list focused on shooting, since everything else in the list can focus on infantry or tanks, these guys can focus on monsters, ICs and other nuisance targets that you wouldn't want to waste a brick of firepower on.

Multiple units with a veil is a lot of points...You also take the chance of deepstriking out of rapid fire range and staying open to return shooting and assaults. Doesn't seem very practical.

Deathmarks have uses, but for an all comers list they're too limited and unreliable on top of the clunkyness of their use. I think 6th edition has something in store for them.

Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: WilliamT on November 29, 2011, 11:02:21 AM
IMHO, none of the units in the Elites sections grabs my fancy.

My club plays games using 750 to 1000 point games so i need to be spending points wisely and so will look to the Fast Attack & Heavy Support section instead.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NecronCell2131 on November 29, 2011, 04:19:32 PM
 Has anyone tried using the Ctan as an Entropic strike battery? Using any of the 3 ranged abilities to plink away at the vehicles armour (bs 5 win) Then using our heavy weapons (Triarch stalker, monolith, heavy destroyers) to easily pen and kill said vehicle.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 29, 2011, 04:44:16 PM
Has anyone tried using the Ctan as an Entropic strike battery? Using any of the 3 ranged abilities to plink away at the vehicles armour (bs 5 win) Then using our heavy weapons (Triarch stalker, monolith, heavy destroyers) to easily pen and kill said vehicle.

Entropic Touch only works for the C'tan's close combat attacks sadly. Honestly if you can get in combat with a vehicle it should be dead with the good strength and Monstrous Creature status. The Entropic ability would probably be more of a backup plan if you rolled poorly on the damage table (which is always possible, and usually happens when you need otherwise).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NecronCell2131 on November 29, 2011, 04:49:29 PM
Has anyone tried using the Ctan as an Entropic strike battery? Using any of the 3 ranged abilities to plink away at the vehicles armour (bs 5 win) Then using our heavy weapons (Triarch stalker, monolith, heavy destroyers) to easily pen and kill said vehicle.

Entropic Touch only works for the C'tan's close combat attacks sadly. Honestly if you can get in combat with a vehicle it should be dead with the good strength and Monstrous Creature status. The Entropic ability would probably be more of a backup plan if you rolled poorly on the damage table (which is always possible, and usually happens when you need otherwise).

 Dont have my codex with me but I am fairly sure Under Entropic strike it says it works for both ranged and melee attacks but cant check it.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 29, 2011, 05:04:42 PM
Dont have my codex with me but I am fairly sure Under Entropic strike it says it works for both ranged and melee attacks but cant check it.

But the C'Tan has "Entropic Touch" as an ability you can purchase which specifies close combat attacks only.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 29, 2011, 11:44:34 PM
No worries Partninja, I was trying to be matter-of-fact in my post but reading it again it comes across a bit blunt.

Sadly Entropic Touch on the C'tan works only on melee attacks. But it's still a very decent ability in the way that it lets you field a cheaper C'tan and it's actually a great way to drop the armor save of nasty characters to potentially let other weaker things of yours in the combat have a chance to kill them in a future round, letting your send your C'tan's attacks at other things.

Personally, I am a little more intrigued about Praetorians after realizing they are, in fact, *fearless*, which makes their Reanimation Protocols obscenely effective considering they can never be run down in combat. Matt Ward was very smart and careful in their overall codex design though, since as you can notice the only "res orb"-carrier that can join them without slowing them down is a Destroyer Lord...which is already less than optimal in a lot of armies (but will be very effective with large units of Praetorians). Also, consider that unlike Scarabs which die horribly deaths from just about anything after their alpha-strike, Praetorians with Void Blades also have Entropic Strike but are brutal thugs to try and deal with even after they've slammed through your vehicle wall...

I do agree however that the Fast attack and Heavy section are far more up-front tasty and filled with delicious filling than the Elites section, which is more of a gourmet meal :).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Azonalanthious on November 30, 2011, 08:34:18 PM
Ohh, nasty... a comment in another thread made me take a look at the hyperspace hunter rule, and as near as I can tell it benefits lords/crypteks joined to the squad ("deathmark unit" benefit, rather then something like 'model with this rule', court member joints the unit, ergo...).  Which has me thinking: Despair cryptek + deathmark.  2+ wound, ap 1 flamer template.  And at only 125 points, you could easily have 3 such squads in a list, giving you 3 marked targets to choose from...

If, of course, such a combo actually works and is legal.  Ahh, the joys of new/un-FAQed codexes...  :/
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NecronCell2131 on November 30, 2011, 09:23:00 PM
Ohh, nasty... a comment in another thread made me take a look at the hyperspace hunter rule, and as near as I can tell it benefits lords/crypteks joined to the squad ("deathmark unit" benefit, rather then something like 'model with this rule', court member joints the unit, ergo...).  Which has me thinking: Despair cryptek + deathmark.  2+ wound, ap 1 flamer template.  And at only 125 points, you could easily have 3 such squads in a list, giving you 3 marked targets to choose from...

If, of course, such a combo actually works and is legal.  Ahh, the joys of new/un-FAQed codexes...  :/

 Azonalanthuous your a genius! Going to do this before the faq come out!
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 30, 2011, 10:57:36 PM
Ohh, nasty... a comment in another thread made me take a look at the hyperspace hunter rule, and as near as I can tell it benefits lords/crypteks joined to the squad ("deathmark unit" benefit, rather then something like 'model with this rule', court member joints the unit, ergo...).  Which has me thinking: Despair cryptek + deathmark.  2+ wound, ap 1 flamer template.  And at only 125 points, you could easily have 3 such squads in a list, giving you 3 marked targets to choose from...

If, of course, such a combo actually works and is legal.  Ahh, the joys of new/un-FAQed codexes...  :/

Except the wound role on that flamer is not based on toughness. It specifically has to go off of LD and would not wound on 2+
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 30, 2011, 11:10:48 PM
Except the wound role on that flamer is not based on toughness. It specifically has to go off of LD and would not wound on 2+

That doesn't change the fact that the Deathmarks "wound on 2+", it doesn't matter what stat you're wounding off of. Not that I necessarily think you can legally use that combo...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 30, 2011, 11:21:27 PM
Except the wound role on that flamer is not based on toughness. It specifically has to go off of LD and would not wound on 2+

That doesn't change the fact that the Deathmarks "wound on 2+", it doesn't matter what stat you're wounding off of. Not that I necessarily think you can legally use that combo...

Hmm True. I'm sure they'll FAQ it to say "the Deathmarks" and not "the Deathmarks unit".
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 30, 2011, 11:56:00 PM
anyone tried out the triarch stalker yet?  I have not had a chance to.  Main reason being that it's pretty expensive (at least compared to most necron units) and while quantum armor/living metal is pretty good defense I get really nervous about a melta taking it out (especially as it has melta weapons itself, therefore needing to get pretty close for the 2D) or at least easily scoring a penetrating hit and negating quantum armor.

I can definitely see its uses, it doubles as both a tarpit against troops without high strength weapons (even powerfists need a 5+ to damage it) while providing pretty good AT and marking high priorty targets for the rest of the army.

but if I did use one i think it would be more for larger games where
a. it is less of a priorty for the enemy to shoot at with everything else I'll be putting on the board
b. it's targetting abilitiy will be more effective as i'll have more units to shoot with.

what's people's experience with this so far?  and is it worth keeping its short range melta or worth switching to the TL guass cannon for longer safer range?  unsure if it would be worth taking the particle shredder unless you know you're up against a hoard army like orks/nyds.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NecronCell2131 on December 1, 2011, 12:11:25 AM
Ill probably pick one up just to get twin linked on squads i want dead.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on December 1, 2011, 12:56:10 AM
I've been using two regularly. Keep in mind, it has a 12" melta range, not a 6. It's also TWO shots which is fairly reliable. I walk them up along my foot units (My whole is foot slogging). I find people waste shots on it trying to take them out, which they generally shrug off. Once they are within melta range of my target, they pop it, then act as assault support or let the unit they are escorting tie them up.

I also have been using Nemesor Zahn, so getting tank hunters doesn't always require them to get in 2D6 range.

Unless you are using a mainly foot army, you are probably better off using other more efficient options. For their price, you could take three Spyders to pump out tons of scarabs into one big scarab squad.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on December 1, 2011, 01:03:37 AM
Remember that quantum shielding is of no use for attacks directed against the rear armor. In CC the triarch is much less resilient than against shooting attacks, but it's still very survivable.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on December 1, 2011, 01:14:07 AM
Remember that quantum shielding is of no use for attacks directed against the rear armor. In CC the triarch is much less resilient than against shooting attacks, but it's still very survivable.

Except you always fight against a Walkers front AV in close combat. Luckily for us, Quantum Shielding doesn't only work against shooting attacks, which is what the fluff seems to describe.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on December 1, 2011, 01:14:59 AM
Remember that quantum shielding is of no use for attacks directed against the rear armor. In CC the triarch is much less resilient than against shooting attacks, but it's still very survivable.

Blows against walkers are always against front armor in CC and Quantum shielding still applies...I would say more things can hurt it at range than in CC (besides things that are S10 in CC which are few).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on December 1, 2011, 03:07:26 PM
Teach me to complain, lol. Not used to fielding walkers with differing armor values. That's actually quite good news then, at least to me :).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on December 1, 2011, 05:08:11 PM
Teach me to complain, lol. Not used to fielding walkers with differing armor values. That's actually quite good news then, at least to me :).

Guess you've never been stuck in CC with a Dreadnaught? It can be painfully and excruciatingly long fight.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: syth773 on December 2, 2011, 12:05:53 AM
I beleive immoblisation lets you hit their rear armor, good thing triarchs have move through cover.  Guessing they were meant to lurk around forrest terrain or something similar to gain the cover advantage with a smaller chance of mishap.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Idaho on December 2, 2011, 02:15:52 AM
You always hit the front armour against walkers, regardless of their mobility. If immobile the walker loses an attack.

Still, you don't really want your Stalkers in assaults as they don't even have power weapons, let alone their strengths are shooting based. Best to keep them in the line for protection.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on December 2, 2011, 08:37:21 AM
Obviously you want them to shoot, but 4 high strength attacks on the charge isn't shabby. Sometimes you need to assault to tarpit a unit mid-late game, or to assist a squad in CC if no other shootable targets are/still a available. CC isn't their purpose but is useful in a pinch.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on December 2, 2011, 09:41:10 AM
Obviously you want them to shoot, but 4 high strength attacks on the charge isn't shabby. Sometimes you need to assault to tarpit a unit mid-late game, or to assist a squad in CC if no other shootable targets are/still a available. CC isn't their purpose but is useful in a pinch.

Agreed plus it can be useful to use the Heavy Flamer and then assault the last guy or two sitting on that objective. There are a lot of models that can't hurt AV13 so it works great as a tarpit if necessary.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: prot on December 4, 2011, 09:00:52 AM
I'm going to be forcing Flayed Ones into my lists, but aside from them I think perhaps a Stalker or even two might creep into my list. The ability to swap out weapons is something that could be great in a destroyer list.

I sure hope they come out with the model, but I am swamped with new stuff right now. ;)

Flayed Ones have to perform though. IMO they compete almost directly with Scarabs (fast attack) for the category of 'budget assault'. We'll see if this works out.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on December 4, 2011, 09:13:22 AM
Scarabs compete with Wraiths, Destroyers and Tomb blades though - Tomb Blades are an excellent fast option that would be really hard for me to pass up, Wraiths are of course an obvious scalpel unit, and Destroyers, while not my style, are certainly a good pinning unit (not in terms of the pinning rule, but in terms of forcing enemy units to keep to cover or get vaporized). Scarabs also tend to have a more predictable point of entry and can be dealt with before lines close. It may be of greater benefit for a canny player to eliminate all the scarabs they can for the sake of removing the Spyder's ability to replace them.

Flayed Ones don't need to be fielded in such quantites to be a spearhead assault element when utilizing outflank. They also have far less competition in their own FOC slot - I can see people wanting to field multiples of anything in the FA section of a Necron army, but the elite section seems to be much more selective. So if you want to stuff flayed ones into a list it's not going to disrupt it much regardless of the type of army you're bringing. Scarabs on the other hand might require more of a sacrifice, and also immediately make you want to drop in tomb spyders (though of course these are hard to pass over even without scarabs).

At any rate, the two units make sense in the CC-oriented army working side by side. If I end up sticking with my old force - which would be far cheaper than buying what I need to make a high-speed warrior focused army - I'll probably be using 2 units of flayed ones and 1 unit of scarabs. I just need something to force the enemy into the middle of the table so I know I can reach them. Still not sure what the third elite choice would end up being; either Lychguard or Praetorians, most likely.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: enlg on December 4, 2011, 08:24:31 PM
One interesting combination could be the abyssal staff cryptek in a unit of deathmarks.

The deathmark's can mark a target for their "unit" to wound on a 2+ against. The cryptek joins them and therefore gets a flame template wounding on a 2+ ignoring all armor saves and feel no pain. Pretty brutal and I could imagine a night scythe being a good carrier for it. Not to mention with Nemesor, you could give the night scythe stealth, giving it a 3+ cover save to help you out.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on December 4, 2011, 08:35:43 PM
One interesting combination could be the abyssal staff cryptek in a unit of deathmarks.

The deathmark's can mark a target for their "unit" to wound on a 2+ against. The cryptek joins them and therefore gets a flame template wounding on a 2+ ignoring all armor saves and feel no pain. Pretty brutal and I could imagine a night scythe being a good carrier for it. Not to mention with Nemesor, you could give the night scythe stealth, giving it a 3+ cover save to help you out.

While the wording would allow this, don't get used to it. I think it will be FAQ'd to only effect the Deathmarks specifically. We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Idaho on December 5, 2011, 05:58:55 AM
Scarabs compete with Wraiths, Destroyers and Tomb blades though - Tomb Blades are an excellent fast option that would be really hard for me to pass up, Wraiths are of course an obvious scalpel unit, and Destroyers, while not my style, are certainly a good pinning unit (not in terms of the pinning rule, but in terms of forcing enemy units to keep to cover or get vaporized). Scarabs also tend to have a more predictable point of entry and can be dealt with before lines close. It may be of greater benefit for a canny player to eliminate all the scarabs they can for the sake of removing the Spyder's ability to replace them.

....


I think the point Prot was making was not Flayed Ones compete in Force Organisation slots with Scarabs, as it's evidential that isn't the case, rather the Flayed Ones and Scarabs are both performing similar rolls in his list, specifically one of harrassment.

Personally I would go Scarabs every time unless I was planning on filling my Fast Attack slots. Which I am, namely Wraiths and Heavy Destroyers! But I would still prefer a single unit of Scarabs over the poor old Flayed Ones. They just don't have the speed or reliability of deployment or combat power to warrant a position in a list except when Fast Attack slots are full.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: prot on December 5, 2011, 09:28:11 AM
Yes, thanks. That was where I was going with the comparison.

For me it's more about a point-for-point comparison as opposed to Force Org chart comparison.

You get a LOT of bang for the buck with Scarabs. And you need it. I think assaulting with any unit that is pretty much always going last is really, really hard to get success from in any sort of reliable fashion.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: NecronCell2131 on December 9, 2011, 03:48:42 PM
 So ive changed my opinion about flayed ones at least against orks. Took Nemesor and a unit of 20 flayed ones, put them in cover with stealth. Ork boy squad 30 strong got close i took away there furious charge, gave it to my flayed ones and watched his entire squad except for the big mek and nob die.

 With the Nemesor i feel flayed ones are a great, without still good but not something i would run.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Partninja on December 9, 2011, 04:51:40 PM
20 Flayed Ones in general is pretty good, since like Orks, they have numbers to make up for their short comings. Now the thing to consider is if that 260 points is worth it considering a tactful player can keep them from infiltrating in a good spot, or getting caught in an outflank. The Orks get double the models for similar cost.

This isn't to say you shouldn't take flayed ones, but rather a larger squad of 15-20 should be taken, and your list should be able to utilize them. A few guys in our group are using them, along with Obyron/veil shenanigans to wreck havoc on the opponents deployment.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
Post by: Azonalanthious on December 9, 2011, 06:13:12 PM
So ive changed my opinion about flayed ones at least against orks. Took Nemesor and a unit of 20 flayed ones, put them in cover with stealth. Ork boy squad 30 strong got close i took away there furious charge, gave it to my flayed ones and watched his entire squad except for the big mek and nob die.

 With the Nemesor i feel flayed ones are a great, without still good but not something i would run.

Orks are a reasonable comparison.  Maybe its my background in orks, but when I look at flayed ones (from a game perspective, not a fluff one of course!) I see REALLY tough ork boyz with infiltrate.  I just really wish there was a way to get a warscythe into the squad without using an IC, and I would be delighted to run them just like a boyz squad with a power klaw.