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Author Topic: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed  (Read 6105 times)

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Offline Screwhead

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2008, 12:05:25 PM »
Consider other factors as well, see how many shots from Immortals it takes to kill a single Dark Eldar Grotesque; its impossible as you must have a str=6 or better weapon weapon to kill Grotesques (read the DE Codex, although Rending would work if Necrons had it).

You should go and read the Necron codex's entry on Gauss weapons a little closer, specifically the part that says 'Even a target which the weapon could not normally hurt because of it's high Toughness or because it is immune to weapons below a given strength is wounded..


Offline moc065

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2008, 12:22:16 PM »
You should go read the Dark Eldar codex, as it says somethin along the lines of... Any weapon, can not even wound a Grotesques unless its str is double there toughness in order to inst-kill them... or something very close to this at least. The DE codex is very precise to rule out things such as Sniper fire, Gauss, Witchblades, etc... and actually uses the wording for the minimum Strength required.

And you better believe I asked the guy to prove it to me; then I unloaded a round of fire into those Grotesques from 2 units of 5 Destroyers, and the issue was resolved as I wiped them off the battle field.

Sick isn't it.

PS... I know the Necron Codex quite well thank you, do you know all the other codex' ?

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Offline Erethrin

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2008, 12:25:39 PM »
if i remember well (grostesque) wording is : they ignore all HIT from a source of less than 6 str

keyword is HIT , so even with a roll of 6 on the gauss weapon , grostesque would ignore it , since it was never hited ;D

Offline Screwhead

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2008, 02:17:47 PM »
Just took a look at their entry in the DE codex and yeah, it does say they ignore hits from weapons lower than S6, but honestly I think that it's a case of RAW vs RAI, as the strength of a weapon has nothing to do with it's ability to hit a model, only it's ability to wound.

Offline moc065

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2008, 02:27:45 PM »
Call it a case of RAW - RAI, the fact is that you better have some str=6 guns/attacks or better.

I know that there is something else out there as well; but I can't think of it right now. Anyway, liek I said, Immortals and Destroyers each have their place for use in Necron lists, and niether is better or worse than the other. Just Different.

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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2008, 04:15:00 PM »
Moc, I'm actually about to disagree with you!

Grotesques can be wounded by gauss of any strength if a 6 is rolled.  The Grotesques' immunity is strength based, gauss overrides this.

Offline Foxfire

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2008, 05:40:39 PM »
Oh lord, not this debate again  :o  I remember many pages of debate about this, back when the DE-fanboy-spammer Kritik (also known as Hao Li) was lurking around.  I can't recall that any resolution ever turned up. 

I do believe, though, that the gauss rule specifically negates the penalty of low strength vs. high toughness, which would mean they didn't do much unless the Grotesques were immune to low strength by virtue of high toughness, but since their rule is applied outside of the realm of toughness/strength relations, it overrides the gauss rules.   

Offline Screwhead

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2008, 05:53:48 PM »
well, the way I would interpret it is that the grotesques' ability makes them immune to damage done by weapons below str6, not that weapons below str6 can't shoot at it or can't hit it (because, as I stated above, a weapon's STR has nothing to do with hitting, only wounding), and the necron rule specificaly states that it will hit even against an ability that states that the model is immune to weapons below a given strength..

Offline Changeyname

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2008, 07:27:51 PM »
screwhead, i'm not 100% sure what you just said lol ;)

but the way i look at it is this
gauss allows wounds against models you would normally not be able to on the roll of a 6
the grotesques ignore shooting hits from a weapon which is not double their toughness

hence the gauss rules may never come into effect as RAW they never get to roll to wound as the hits are discounted before hand
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Offline argos5

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2008, 08:47:12 PM »
Analyzing the DE Codex ruling for Grotesques and the Necron Codex Gauss ruling... I'm inclined to agree with Warboss' analysis. Although Gauss is a universal rule for Necrons and takes no stats other than a die roll of 6 into account, the Grotesque does prevent shooting from happening due to the wording of the Codex. Its alright, my friends... this was bound to happen---- DEs and Necrons both need their codices updated.


And on the debate about Destroyers vs Immortals. I'm inclined to say circumstance. If you're going front-to-front fighting, sure Immortals work. But if you want to outflank your opponent, its easier to maneuver Destroyers than Immortals. See, I don't think about the hard numbers when evaluating the two... I think of how effective I can use either in situations where I need them.

Besides, I'm finding it common for non-Necron players and redshirts to see Destroyers and Immortals fielded either way or together.

Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2008, 09:12:49 PM »
Most Necron players use both extensively.  I just happen to like Destroyers better for all of the reasons that I've already put forth.  I just declined to continue an argument in which someone says that a Winged Tyranid Warrior is just as good as a Destroyer.

I might as well try to explain to a mongoloid that eating pennies is unhealthy.  I acknowledge that this last bit was probably uncalled for.

Oh lord, not this debate again  :o  I remember many pages of debate about this, back when the DE-fanboy-spammer Kritik (also known as Hao Li) was lurking around.  I can't recall that any resolution ever turned up. 

I do believe, though, that the gauss rule specifically negates the penalty of low strength vs. high toughness, which would mean they didn't do much unless the Grotesques were immune to low strength by virtue of high toughness, but since their rule is applied outside of the realm of toughness/strength relations, it overrides the gauss rules.  

This is the most succinctly answered rules question I've ever seen on this forum.

Not that I foresee playing against anyone fielding Grotesques in the next decade or so...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 09:15:13 PM by Monster Rain »

Offline argos5

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2008, 04:52:45 AM »

I might as well try to explain to a mongoloid that eating pennies is unhealthy.  I acknowledge that this last bit was probably uncalled for.


As a side note, going forward. I read that the term "mongoloid" is the scientific word for the archetype pertaining to asians. This term was used in a derogatory fashion towards them in the early days and later attributed to mentally deficient individuals.

Luckily, I doubt most asians even recall this. Nor do most people even realize the history of it. I thought I'd bring it up, because my parents (although asian), used mongoloid to distinguish mentally retarded folk as well. LOL.

Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2008, 07:35:12 AM »
I thought I'd bring it up, because my parents (although asian), used mongoloid to distinguish mentally retarded folk as well. LOL.

This is my intent.  I have no argument with the asian community.   :)

Offline argos5

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2008, 02:52:35 PM »
So I was thinking on the Gauss ruling further and looked at the Codex. And I realized... the Gauss rule works on the Grotesque. For these two reasons:

"Even a target which the weapon could not normally hurt". This is small of a detail, but due to our responses so far, we've been making the Grotesque the exception to the Gauss rule... and by this phrasing, it is directed towards models and rulings like the Grotesque: "because it is immune to weapons below a given Strength". Well, these two minor/major details, together, seem like they're directed towards creatures like the Grotesque.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 02:59:46 PM by argos5 »

Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2008, 02:54:49 PM »
There's two really good arguments for this...

Is there a FAQ for this or something?

Offline Changeyname

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2008, 02:57:23 PM »
no, lol that'd be too easy for GW, while im pretty sure that they can't, (see my last post) it does seem more than slightly ambiguous the more i look at it lol

i think you'd have to decide before hand with your opponent until it gets sorted
and as most players will argue for their own rules (ie DE against, crons for) it'll probably come down to a d6 every time
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Offline argos5

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2008, 02:59:52 PM »
I noticed every time anyone paraphrases this ruling, it makes the Codex text seem weak and incoherent. When this happens, we would have to give in to the Grotesque ruling. Only by centering and emphasizing the text from the Codex can we resolve this issue, rather than focusing on our paraphrasing of the Gauss rule.

And yes, the Gauss weapons can feel very overpowered because of this.

Offline Changeyname

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2008, 03:08:32 PM »
bugger me, the gauss rules specifically state that they CAN wound grotesques
Quote
Even a target which the weapon could not normally hurt because of it's high Toughness or because it is immune to weapons below a given Strength is wounded
wish i had had my codex with me on the last posting

so it seems like gauss weapons are able to wound Grotesque's
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2008, 03:41:19 PM »
I thought so too, but the other side of the argument is that it ignores hits of less than s6.

I would go ahead and say that gauss can wound grotesques though.  If it can Immobilize a Land Raider I don't think it should have too much trouble with some goth masochist.

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2008, 03:55:25 PM »
This thread isn't the place for this discussion.
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