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Author Topic: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!  (Read 2236 times)

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Offline Slave to Darkness

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Well well well..after only a few weeks in power half of the so called Liberal voters are ready to defect to a true left wing party. The final straw seems to have been the enthusiasm of the so called Liberals to massive increase tax on the poorest in society whilst letting the wealthiest and most fortunate in society off the hook.sickening! I'm sure we all agree there was a need for tax rises, but I along with many others am horrified that the so called Liberals should have chosen to increase VAT rather than income tax.

Read it and weep
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jun/27/lib-dems-vat-rise-anger-poll

Oh and if you think this is bad, just wait until the so called Liberals increase university tution fees.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 03:36:53 PM by I am Jesus, Nick Clegg is not! »

Offline Irisado

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 04:15:01 PM »
I hate to say this, but I think that you are misrepresenting the source that you have linked to.

The YouGov poll is only indicating that forty-eight percent of those who voted for the Liberal Democrats may be less inclined to vote for them again, which hardly supports your claim that 'Liberal voters are ready to defect'.

If you take a look at the article in detail, rather than just looking at the headline, it's worth noting that the poll was financed by Ed Millaband's Labour leadership campaign, that the sample size was only 2500, and that the likelihood of voting was divided into two categories with only twenty-two percent being much less likely to vote for the Liberal Democrats.

This raises serious questions about the poll in terms of bias, not only because of the sample size, but also because of the funding source.  Polls which are funded by parties are, after all, always meant to generate findings which are favourable to the party which provided the money for them.  Indeed, one of the first rules of analysing any poll conducted in the discipline of political science is to look at who funded it.

Having dealt with that issue, do you have any evidence to back up your statement about Liberal Democrat policy on tuition fees?

On the issue of VAT, I wasn't thrilled by the policy decision, but your broad brush approach to this issue does not really give much insight.  The Liberal Democrats are constrained by the coalition agreement, and also while some of them may say that they agree with it, this does not mean that they do in private, but to vote against it could bring the coalition down.  Is this worth the risk?  Can we be sure that Labour would not raise VAT in exactly the same way as the Conservatives would have done?  I cannot recall Labour ruling out a VAT increase during the election campaign.

Finally, what do you mean by a true left wing party?  Labour is nothing of the sort, so I think that you need to clarify your point here.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 05:56:18 PM »
Well well well..after only a few weeks in power half of the so called Liberal voters are ready to defect to a true left wing party. The final straw seems to have been the enthusiasm of the so called Liberals to massive increase tax on the poorest in society whilst letting the wealthiest and most fortunate in society off the hook.sickening!
''The poll of almost 2,500 people, financed by Ed Miliband's campaign for the Labour leadership, found 26% of people "somewhat" less likely to vote Lib Dem because of the VAT U-turn and 22% much less likely.''

48% of 2,500 people, probably from a concentrated area, is hardly representitive of the overall Lib Dem voting block imho.  And seeing as this poll was fianced by Eddie's Labour Leadership bid, I find it no suprise whats so ever that it gives Labour 'good news'. 

I bet that most of those interveiwed were first time Lib Dem voters who didn't like this policy and will float to another party next election, rather than dedicated Liberal voters.  However, you say 'true left wing party'.  Who's that now?

I'm sure we all agree there was a need for tax rises, but I along with many others am horrified that the so called Liberals should have chosen to increase VAT rather than income tax.

Raising Income Tax provides less incentive to work.  Why the hell would somebody on benefits go to work if they lose a lot of it on taxes?  I personally would prefer to have more cash in my hands to begin with, rather than being taxed more.

Oh and if you think this is bad, just wait until the so called Liberals increase university tution fees.

Could you provide a source on that, please?

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 08:30:29 PM »
Well well well..after only a few weeks in power half of the so called Liberal voters are ready to defect to a true left wing party. The final straw seems to have been the enthusiasm of the so called Liberals to massive increase tax on the poorest in society whilst letting the wealthiest and most fortunate in society off the hook.sickening! I'm sure we all agree there was a need for tax rises, but I along with many others am horrified that the so called Liberals should have chosen to increase VAT rather than income tax.

Read it and weep
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jun/27/lib-dems-vat-rise-anger-poll

Oh and if you think this is bad, just wait until the so called Liberals increase university tution fees.

Which is annoying but understandable. The UK needs money. However VAT hits the lowest income groups harder than the high income groups. A tax increase to the rich (please note, I count as "among the rich") will have been more fair.

The U-Turn on the lib dem uni fees is again because of a coalition government. Honestly... Where do you want money to come from? We spent money stupidly on a giant war and now we have to pay for it by taxes.

Of course they aren't going to keep their promises. Cutting bureacracy REQUIRES bureacracy which they promised to cut. Easiest thing to do is axe a lot of new programs no matter the use of them. So the NHS, Internet Speed and this is a prime example.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline IainC

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2010, 09:28:28 PM »
Sales taxes (like VAT) are a regressive tax that hit poorer people harder because they spend a larger percentage of their income than rich people do.
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Offline Macharius

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 11:28:16 PM »
I don't know much about the UK and their new tax policy, but here in Canada we have HST, which is similar. While at a glance it may seem harsher on the lower class, just remember, people who make above $80,000 (Can) will get taxed nearly 60%. With the median wage being $26,000, which becomes about $22,000 after removing the 80k+ percentile, only get taxed 16%. So who gets it worse, the people paying $48,000 a year, or the average joe paying $3,520, and then having to pay sales taxes?
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 04:34:52 AM »
VAT is valued added tax. It applies to things you buy. If things you buy increase in price the cost of living goes up which hits poor people harder. You want "poor people" spending money and taxation on the rich because "most rich people don't spend money". People are used to vulgar displays of wealth of the rich little realising that most rich people "rarely spend money and instead just hole it up in property and investments and other places where the wealth isn't accessible". Poor people "spend their money" because they have things that they want.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2010, 08:24:20 PM »
Any thread that begins with one partisan crowing about a turn in fortunes for the other partisans is off to a bad start.  At least read the article before responding, and future thread authors would be wise to not use phrases such as "suck on this," "read it and weep," or anything like it.
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Offline Sheepz

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #8 on: July 1, 2010, 07:38:51 PM »
Well well well..after only a few weeks in power half of the so called Liberal voters are ready to defect to a true left wing party.

That will surely be a boost for the unnamed and presumably imaginary left wing party.

Quote
The final straw seems to have been the enthusiasm of the so called Liberals to massive increase tax on the poorest in society whilst letting the wealthiest and most fortunate in society off the hook.sickening! I'm sure we all agree there was a need for tax rises, but I along with many others am horrified that the so called Liberals should have chosen to increase VAT rather than income tax.


They're not liberals. Not in the sense that they are the "Liberal Party" since they are not, and not in the sense that they are "liberal" at least classically, because they're not. I'd call them social democrats.

Quote
Read it and weep
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jun/27/lib-dems-vat-rise-anger-poll
Apart from IainC's comments about poll bias, which stands up very well, I'd put it down to the fact that the Guardian has a massive hard on for the Lib Dems and is sulking. It's like the Daily Mail going "All immigrants are peadophiles because we found this dude accused of peadophilia with a vaugely foreign name and didn't really think about it very much."

Basically, my advice is to stop being rather bitter about the Liberals, stop thinking Labour are a left wing party, and make peace with the fact that politics is always inherently flawed and self serving. Of course they're going to take it from less well off families. Because it's the majority of the population and, rather importantly, not *them*.

Offline scarycrow

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #9 on: July 1, 2010, 08:01:06 PM »
Any who stand on the left or right is wrong thats that. If you class yourself as one option, you limit your point off view and it is only a matter of time before you make a mistake. Which is why I think the general system of running for office is trash. The person changes but the beliefs never do, we are to focused on titles.

I want to see someone win who will vote with what they think is right and wrong not what they think their party would do. If you want to play it like that then you maze well have no one in office and program a machine to vote on issues. You vote in the party and the machine always votes for the option that their side always does. Then nothing gets done ever... oh wait that is whats going on. Death to the 2/3 party system. vote in the man/woman/thing not the party.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2010, 08:02:22 PM by scarycrow »

Offline Sheepz

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #10 on: July 1, 2010, 08:43:56 PM »
I want to see someone win who will vote with what they think is right and wrong not what they think their party would do. If you want to play it like that then you maze well have no one in office and program a machine to vote on issues. You vote in the party and the machine always votes for the option that their side always does. Then nothing gets done ever... oh wait that is whats going on. Death to the 2/3 party system. vote in the man/woman/thing not the party.

Yup, that's one of the fastest ways to fascism, if that's your think. Vote for someone who can be the sole arbiter of right and wrong. Believe in the person, not in the system.

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #11 on: July 2, 2010, 08:20:28 AM »
Its the second fastest way to fascism. The fastest way is for me to declare myself the Lord Protector and dress in snappy uniforms and have you believe in me as the Lord Protector. Who else will protect you from all those filthy catholics? That filthy hasbeen who can't come to power as effectively as me and can't keep his head on his shoulder's as effectively as me? Thought not! (Note to people without any sense of humour or understanding of british history. The Lord Protector was one of the most famous dictator's of England. Oliver Cromwell. He took draconian measures against the catholics including massive the massive destruction of Ireland)

It would certainly make Question Time a bit more fraught with peril.

Any who stand on the left or right is wrong thats that. If you class yourself as one option, you limit your point off view and it is only a matter of time before you make a mistake. Which is why I think the general system of running for office is trash. The person changes but the beliefs never do, we are to focused on titles.

Not really. There are core values people believe in that tend to amalgamate in certain well known monikers such as Theological,  Libertarian, Fascist, Conservative, Social Democrat, Labour, Communist. Now as a centre leaning social democrat. Not everyone's ideas on the topic are "sensible". Social Democrats are rather poor at cost cutting measures (as we see now) while Fiscal Conservatives are rather good at it often to the detriment of the poorest and most vulnerable people. There are some groups with sensible ideas vis a vis "society" such as the social democrats and the communists, and there are some with frankly insane ones such as Fascists, Theologists and the "american" monicker of "social conservative" which apparently is "filled with stupid, crazy and dangerous" in equal amounts.


I want to see someone win who will vote with what they think is right and wrong not what they think their party would do. If you want to play it like that then you maze well have no one in office and program a machine to vote on issues. You vote in the party and the machine always votes for the option that their side always does. Then nothing gets done ever... oh wait that is whats going on. Death to the 2/3 party system. vote in the man/woman/thing not the party.

Which is stupid because human beings are stupid and often have "cult's of personality" where they blindly follow a certain character.

Point in case... How many people do you think would vote for Edward from Twilight. TONNES. Why? It has nothing to do with how good a politician he is or the fact he is a child molestor (70 year old man tries it out with 16 year old girl? Why don't you take a seat?). It has everything to do with his sparkles and the modern idea of a "god" while borrowing from comic books.

A more dangerous case is Sarah Palin. Put it this way, people were so thrilled that she would be the first female president of the USA and that she would be a pillar of feminism, completely forgetting that Sarah Palin is the very antithesis of feminist.

People are dumb. A person is intelligent but people as a group produce big mistakes. Voting on personality is incredibly dangerous.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline Brother Asreus

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Re: 48% of those who voted for the Liberals won't vote for them again!
« Reply #12 on: July 2, 2010, 09:30:38 AM »
Let's try and swing this back around to the issue at hand please. If people want to discuss the left vs right or current election laws, please start a new thread.

Or the topic gets changed to euthanasia when I gas the thread.  I almost locked it yesterday.  -Mr.Peanut
« Last Edit: July 2, 2010, 10:05:48 AM by Mr.Peanut »


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